Assassins or.... "Crapsassins"

Mandrathrax · Post by **Mandrathrax** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:20 am

Personally, I like assassins. I've seen them used to great effect. High WS, BS, Ld, I, the ability to either be hidden at the start or deploy like a scout (possibly with shades?) makes them quite versatile, IMHO.

BUT! And there always is a "but", they are "cost heavy", according to some. I regularly pay 175+ for Heroes, but this doesn't seem to swing with most Druchii players. Honestly, I've seen "hidden" used so much, and in such crafty ways, that I'm sure I could make their points value back by the end of a standard game. I've had mock battles with one of my friends using proxy armies, and I've made use of an assassin with the following gear:
Extra Hand Weapon
Rune of Khaine
Manbane poison

this weighs in at 179 points, which to me isn't that much.

So. Assassins. Good? or bad? what about the rumors about their ability to hide amongst enemy units? would that make them worth their points cost? How do you use your assassins?

Discuss.

Derikari · Post by **Derikari** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:26 am

They won't be hiding in enemy units, only Shadowblade can do that.

Assassin: Neither Core, nor Hero. 90pts, always hidden in unit (pretty much any DE infantry). Has poisoned attacks, 75pts allowed from Gifts of Khaine, Additional Hand Weapon 6pts, Repeater handbow 9pts. 1 per unit.

Gifts of Khaine:

As has been mentioned previously, Assassins can now take up to 75pts from the Gifts of Khaine list.

Witch Elf Hags can take up to 25pts from the Gifts of Khaine list.

Like now, Gifts can be taken multiple times in an army with the exception of two which are noted to follow the special rules for magic items:- For example one per army; magic weapons cannot make poisoned attacks; etc.

These two items are:

Venom Sword - 75pts
Exactly the same as it is now (but is no longer available as a Magic weapon).

Cloak [Name not remembered] - 30pts
Contains a bound spell Steed of Shadows from the Lore of Shadows. Power Level 3.

The rest of the Gifts of Khaine are similar to the current list, but changes and additions I will list below:

Shuriken [Name not remembered] - 30pts
Gives the bearer ranged attacks with the following profile; Thrown 8" range, Strength As user +1, 3x Multiple shots.

Rune of Khaine - 25pts
Gives the model +D3 attacks each round of combat.

Black Lotus - 15pts
Allows the model to re-roll 1s rolled to wound

Dark Venom - 10prs
If the model kills an opponent in a challenge, all wounds inflicted are doubled for combat resolution.

N.B. Manbane (same as current), Black Lotus and Dark Venom replace the models base Poisoned Attacks.

Those are some stuff nabbed from the armybook by Milney. That should help you see what they will be soon.

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:34 am

this weighs in at 179 points, which to me isn't that much

T3, 2 Wounds, no ASv, currently lacking the power to reliably take out a basic T4, 2 Wounds, decent ASv Hero-level character.

No ranged options limits its usefulness as a Scout.

But I've got my hopes set on the new AB.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:08 am

No ranged options limits its usefulness as a Scout.

Thats fixed by the shurikens in the new book. As they are user strength +1 you can hopefully poison them with Manbane. Against some targets this could make 3 S7 attacks, thats enought to auto kill most chariots as alot of them have T5.

Elfik · Post by **Elfik** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:02 am

Well someone suggested the new ASF dagger magic item on unit champs as a cheap substitute for assassins. If you think about it, other characters can do what assassins do and more for a lower pts cost.

Gifts of Khaine -- hag queen or witch elf hag
Combat -- tooled Master or Dreadlord
ASF surprise -- ASF magic weapon on unit champ, or ASF magic banner

Feel free to debate this, however. I'm not sure that assassins will be allowed to scout.

Lonely shade · Post by **Lonely shade** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:34 am

Oh, that shuriken would be WONDERFUL!

I'm sure they will let you couple it with Manbane, and that would just be a fantastic combination.

Also, the entire point of assasins is that they are fast, and deadly, meaning they are done with you before you can attack, so they don't need armour (plus it is cumbersome).

- Lonely

Heat-13 · Post by **Heat-13** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:52 am

Wow assassin + steed of shadows + rune of khaine = bye bye to lonely wizards. (and other things lonely)

Looks like they're going to be worth it in the new edition... cause in the previous one I could just not bear myself to afford one.

My only doubt is that they might not work that well against high elves (ASF) - but maybe they could still take out those pesky mages

Steve tu · Post by **Steve tu** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:33 am

That would be my set up too - and with black lotus. would be a highly mobile hunter killer and with a magic heavy army, very useful at taking out light unitswarmachines/wizard hunters and such. A DE version of the Nike Saurus!

The rumours are they have ASF aswell as hatred so should be a very useful unit. The only problem is finding the points for them...

Mandrathrax · Post by **Mandrathrax** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:35 pm

Lonely Shade wrote:
Also, the entire point of assasins is that they are fast, and deadly, meaning they are done with you before you can attack, so they don't need armour (plus it is cumbersome).

I agree with this... they've got 6 attacks at I 10 on the charge, if they have rune of khaine and the extra weapon, and with manbane, these hit regularly (WS 9) and wound on a 3+, which in Warhammer terms is pretty reliable. The opponent just doesn't have the chance to fight back.

Getwisteerd · Post by **Getwisteerd** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:51 pm

5 attacks actually, if the enemy has some armour he will most likely not suffer more than 2 casualties. Very unimpressive for a 180 point armourless hero. You can almost have 2 chariots for the same price. When they charge you can be sure of more than two casualties

Almundis · Post by **Almundis** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:01 pm

Am I the only one who sees the hilarity in a chariot being destroyed by tiny throwing stars? Don't get me wrong, If it is indeed a possible combination I will use it.... Just seems funny...

Heat-13 · Post by **Heat-13** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:12 pm

+1 that is ridiculous - but hey skaven can do it with their magic super magic bound item of double strength

Jaqtaar · Post by **Jaqtaar** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:13 pm

You can always say that the assassin aimed at the crew.

Almundis · Post by **Almundis** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:14 pm

I quite like the idea of an elf throwing a star at a passing chariot and in a family guy-esque way, the chariot simply collapses into a few dozen pieces...

Raneth · Post by **Raneth** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:54 pm

Assassins will be so damn good, they'll shatter the axle with that shuriken.

Unfortunately they aren't right now.

Sulla · Post by **Sulla** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:22 pm

getwisteerd wrote:5 attacks actually, if the enemy has some armour he will most likely not suffer more than 2 casualties. Very unimpressive for a 180 point armourless hero. You can almost have 2 chariots for the same price. When they charge you can be sure of more than two casualties

It depends on the fineprint of the cauldron. If it can give kb attacks to the unit and all characters within it then those 5 assassin attacks (which should all hit) should net a killing blow ona character. That's good enough for me.

And since I've lost my last 3 games directly due to stupidity, I won't be playing an army with any cold ones in it for quite a long time under the new rules...

Lordsaradain · Post by **Lordsaradain** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:44 pm

Shuriken!?!

Dark Elf Assassins are NOT Ninjas.
Sure, they should be armed with some kind of ranged weapon, but not friggin ninja throwing stars. If anything, they should have normal throwning knives, repeater crossbow handguns or prehaps blowpipes IMO.

Getwisteerd · Post by **Getwisteerd** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:49 pm

Sulla: those rules do not exist yet

Gastronauticon · Post by **Gastronauticon** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:58 pm

Well as long as we can fling them sucessfully at the Nikesaurus and the Reebok von Carstein, I will play with them! We do not have much to counter them reliably atm. The above mentioned chars are in the same price range so an 1-1 trade would be sufficient as long as the other elements of the new DE are as good as I hope they are.

Mandrathrax · Post by **Mandrathrax** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:43 pm

I'm starting to see the point here, just like I saw those new cold one pictures. PIMPIN'!

So what would you take instead of an assassin in a 2000 points game? Highborn and Nobles? Beastmasters? Sorceresses? Who should carry the Battle Standard? Which ones are recommended?

I'm too used to warhammer 40,000 where heroes of the magnitude of the assassins still only have 1 wound. After reviewing the stack of different army books my cousin who stopped playing Fantasy has given me, that's actually not so hot.

Assassins in concept are still cool though, so I'm looking forward to them in the next edition.

Lasthobbit · Post by **Lasthobbit** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:23 pm

To buy assassin is to loose the points (IMO).

Alkatchoff · Post by **Alkatchoff** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:42 am

I've found Assassins to be fairly viable in their current incarnation, though this varies greatly on opponents/their armies.

Two combos really stood out for me:

Assassin with additional hand weapon and dance of doom (KB)- I've found this guy to be a great equalizer against special characters, if only for the fact that your opponent may think twice before going after a unit with their character.
It's also proven decent at going after such enemies as Vampires.

The biggest weakness of this build is that, in the end, it relies on rolling 6's at the right time. It can be insanely frustrating to roll 4 hits on a Vampire Lord, only to fail in landing a single killing blow.
Having a Cauldron in range drastically improves the viability of using one (or two!) of these guys.

Assassin with additional hand weapon, rune of khaine and manbane
- A more 'traditional' build, this one does great as an equalizer, going after enemy Hero-class characters or taking out charging Elite Infantry. My favourite use for him has been to go after charging High Elf Swordmasters. Between 5 attacks, hatred and wounding on 3's, it can put quite a dent in the unit, limiting the amount of casualties it will inflict. Against a small unit of Elite Infantry, it can make all the difference.

Just some thoughts on the fact that Assassins aren't -totally- useless at the moment.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:24 am

The cheaper the better with these assassins. As unit upgrades designed to offset the weakeness of a unit that you are willing to invest in and committ to they have a role. But my thoughts are that keeping the costs as low as possible is going to be the key. Xhw to keep the costs down but yield some attacks is a solid choice.

Alasanii · Post by **Alasanii** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:32 am

I have tried several different configurations to use assassins with the current rules and I have never been able to see the point. They just seem too expensive for what they do.

However, that may be just because I usually only play games between 1500-2000pts. If it turns out to be true that they are just unit upgrades, then I will probably change my tune.

Here's hoping.

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:57 pm

I think Assassins are a creative idea and the idea of "springing the trap" on your unsuspecting opponent sounds good in theory. And it may turn out that way in practice too! But there needs to be a side-by-side comparison with the Death Hag who is rumoured to be a monster in hand-to-hand combat. From the sounds of things they both cost around around the same, both have access to the Temple of Khaine upgrades, and so on. Now I'm not one who usually flls out all his army Character slots but if you are, taking an Assassin could get you above your Character limit and that's a big advantage. I'm sure each will have its own advantages but I suspect it will come down to personal choice in how you want to outfit your army.