Corsair Army Fluff and Tactics in new dex

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Yoshitomo
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Post by Yoshitomo »

I seriously think you're all underestimating their effectiveness as a cheap baiting unit...I've got a few ideas about how nasty they can be which I noted in an earlier post.

Suffice to say that 40 str 3 shots hitting on 3s from a 100 pts unit, even before the enemy gets to strike back could make them pretty useful against certain units. Did a quick calculation and I make it that vs infantry they will average 27 hits and do 13 wounds against T3 infantry, before saves and an average of 9 wounds after saves vs T3 infantry with light armour and shield. All this before they even enter combat! That is easily enough to cause a panic test and/or seriously weaken horde armies, could also be quite nasty against more armoured/tougher foes. This calculation assumes the corsairs move into firing range, fire, then stand and shoot vs the enemy charge. 100 pts to do that - bit of a bargain imho.

Could always add a kitted-out assasin if you want a good chance of winning the ensuing combat as well...

They are pretty survivable against enemy shooting as well...still would have been nice to have 12" range to the RHBs though!
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Post by Getwisteerd »

130 points is not a 'cheap baiting unit'. And those shots are only S3 without AP, heavy cavalry or chariots can easily weather it and they can charge before you shoot at them, so only the 40 5+ to hit shots. You'll probably kill one knight. Killing one knight or doing one wound on a chariot is not worth 130 points. Even more so if to get that result you have to put a unit 10 wide which makes your manouvring a lot more difficult.

They are also never going to shoot 40 shots at 3+ to hit, you'll have the multishot penalty.
And they would be 130 points with 2 RHB's
And putting an assassin in a sacrificial unit is sheer folly.
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Post by Yoshitomo »

130 pts? Corsairs are strongly rumoured to be only 10 pts each with RHBs or 2 HWs. Do you know something I don't? Also, RHBs don't suffer penalties for multiple shots/moving/standing and shooting (again AFAIK). Against heavy cavalry, I grant you, they will struggle but against anything slower they should be able to rack up quite a few kills given their low points cost
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Post by The griefbringer »

Also, to be fair, corsairs never could stand up to a heavy cavalry charge. Indeed, *most* core units can't do that, nor should they. The way to survive a heavy cavalry charge is to not let it happen in the first place.

The trouble with corsairs has been that they don't hit very hard for a unit that is ostensibly offensive. With the addition of hatred, this has been mitigated somewhat. Also, the use of RhBs in small units might be advantageous (but I'm skeptical on that angle), and the Slaver's rule could be clutch, especially during combined charges.

Again, while Corsairs didn't get as big a boost as some other units in the new book, they did get better and they certainly got no worse. They now have a magic banner allowance for every unit (if I understand the rumors correctly), the option to include an assassin, hatred, slavers, and RhBs, and all for the *exact* same cost. It might not be as awesome as Spearmen or WE or whatever, but it sure as hell ain't bad.
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Post by Calisson »

Luckily, as I play usually against shooty opponents, corsairs are good to resist that.
I love the fluff of corsairs. Let's see what special ability is brought by the new octopus Master.
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Post by Hateshighelves »

The Griefbringer wrote:Also, to be fair, corsairs never could stand up to a heavy cavalry charge.


Last Friday, my 15 Corsairs took an overrun charge from 6 Dragon Princes, coupled with a supporting flank charge by my CoK's. CoK's on the charge, killed one DP. DP's on their charge killed 6 corsairs. The DP's won CR by one and the CoK's failed their leadership test and fled off the table, taking a unit of dark riders with them (fled through the dark riders, forcing a panic test). However, the corsairs held and two rounds of combat later killed two DP's, who failed their test and fled. The corsairs failed to run them down, but in the subsequent turn the DP's failed to rally and fled off the table. Then the 7 remaining corsairs wheeled around and charged a unit of 10 archers, who whiffed on stand and shoot and fled after the combat.

But hey, corsairs never could stand up to a cavalry charge. By the way, this is not the first time this has happened. I usually get great performance from my corsairs.
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Post by Vonkrieglitz »

Under 7th the overrun charge would happen immediately therefore the COK's would not be able to get a supporting flank charge until the beginning of your next turn, if I remember correctly. In any case though, Corsairs are a great and underestimated unit, and I always bring a unit or two to the fight and they never let me down.
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Post by Sulla »

VonKrieglitz wrote:Under 7th the overrun charge would happen immediately therefore the COK's would not be able to get a supporting flank charge until the beginning of your next turn, if I remember correctly. In any case though, Corsairs are a great and underestimated unit, and I always bring a unit or two to the fight and they never let me down.


No. The DP's would only fight if they overran into an existing combat that hadn't been fought in that combat phase. If they overrun into an unengaged unit, they have to wait till next combat phase to fight.

And regardless of how well the corsairs did in that particular battle, the point remains that spears can do the same job for almost half the cost. :cry: Or black guard (or khainites within 12" of the cauldron) could have done better for only a little more cost...

I don't think reciueving a charge or blunting an overrun should be thought of as a strength of corsairs.

I will be bringing a few small handbow units vs HE just to annoy their elite infantry with fire and flee tactics but against most other armies, I probably won't bother. Actually, i tell a lie. I'll probably use a big unit with 2hw and the corsair banner vs undead too as a flanking threat.
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Post by Vonkrieglitz »

I just re-read it, and you're right on the ruling, sulla. My mistake. In any case I never run my Corsairs as a block, but as small flanking units, and they do it brilliantly.
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Post by Yoshitomo »

[quote="VonKrieglitz"]In any case I never run my Corsairs as a block, but as small flanking units, and they do it brilliantly.[/quote]

Agreed - I think they may do it just as well now - never managed to make them work in large blocks...

If we're looking for a decent unit to hold a charge - I can't think of a better one than a 25 strong unit of spearmen - 190 pts with full command, 215 pts if you add Warbanner...to be honest, much as I like Black Guard, this is so much better value as an anvil.
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Post by Lasthobbit »

Corsairs can survive with their 4+ AS versus shooting. Also 11 attacs from the front of 5 models can be a lot of pain to T3 and low AS opponents like the Empire infantry or O&G goblins. Corsairs also have beautyfull miniatures ;) I really like it.
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Post by Jamesfazzolari »

10 Spears with shields and a musican are going to be nice diverters / throw aways. They flank well, they can throw down 10 hatred attacks when they get charged, and can be suicided to deal with mages. Win.

10 Corsairs are pretty much exactly the same, just at much greater cost :(

Dark Riders are the best of the bunch :P
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Post by Blueon462 »

From what I remember from the book at Gamesday, the corsairs are 10 pts and may replace a handweapon with a handbow. Only the champion may have a second handbow (+3 pts).

Lokhir Felheart is a hero and has regen, causes terror, and has a special rule letting him move anywhere in combat...aka he can move on one combat he is in to any touching combat provided he moves somewhere he can fight. He also uses the red blades which give him an extra attack for every rank the opposing enemy has in their unit.

Oh...and he also has a special slaver rule, that give you double victory points for any unit he catches when running them down. (this isnt taken away when/if he is killed/rundown).
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Post by Gastronauticon »

...so all in all, the Corsairs will be the same as they are now but with hatred, the meek Slaver rule and the option of trading a cc attack for a stand & shoot option? At 10ppm?!

No no no, I cant see how that would be true. Ordinary rxbs with shields will probably cost 10ppm as well, shoot three times further, have better AS in close combat and would all in all be a much more versitile unit. No, there must be something more to it. No commercial venture would not go through the pains of developing, distributing and marketing a product which is already superceded by other products in their own range.

What are we missing here?

I really hope they aren´t trying to cover it up with no-brainer banners or special characters because that would totally ruin the fun of playing with them imo.
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Post by Vonkrieglitz »

Hatred and the Slaver rule made Corsairs much better. I probably would have put then at 8-9 ppm, but even at ten they remain useful. I don't believe the Slaver rule specifies WHO has to pursue the unit, just that you can make them re-roll the high dice so that plays into their flanking capability and hatred just massively improves their combat potential. I don't think I'll ever take handbows, however.
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Post by Gastronauticon »

Hatred and the Slaver rule made Corsairs much better.

I agree that the corsairs will be better but mainly so due to AWR Hatred. The corsair-specific Slaver rule, as pointed out with statistical examples elsewhere, is neat but not overwhelmingly so.
My main issue here is that most other DE units is getting a points drop and/or a modest tweaking. The currently overpriced corsairs, as they seem according to the rumors, will retain their ppm whilst only getting a relativley small tweak. As already mentioned, units that need this or that banner or special char to operate properly are poorly designed imo.

I don't think I'll ever take handbows, however.

Well, not likely for me neither. It might be interesting if they could get shields, rhb and hw at a reasonable price though. That would yield an anvil with reasonable multi-purposeness, especially if the rhb comes without the move-and-shoot penalty. Mmm... neat.

Dont get me wrong though. I will try them out extensivley and is currently paining another dozen of the old marauder type minis for this purpose.
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Post by Venkh »

What are we missing here?


According to the best sources a last minute change that nerfed the range on thr RHB and stopped it being used in combat as pistol.
Presumably the RHB was playtested as a 2 or 3 point upgrade.

Just a question, does this mean that RHB corsairs only have on attack in CC?
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Post by Gastronauticon »

Probably... and unless they can use a shield along with the rbh at 0-1pts, the whole rhb idea crumles imo.

There must be a reason to take corsairs over rxbs other than some banners and one more AS vs shooting... but what? Not the slaver rule as it is worth less than one point in terms of power/usefulness imo.
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Post by Lakissov »

actually, in some of the threads there was information that Slavers rule allows the DE to force the opponent to reroll one of the dice from the fleeing roll before making our own pursue roll. If that is true, then it increases the usefulness of the rule dramatically, as you won't have to re-roll 1-3s, if they turn out to be the highest ones.
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Post by Lasthobbit »

Untill we haven't the new book i think that is quite useless to speak about strenghts and weaknesses of NEW corsairs. We just simple don't know how good or bad they are. We shall see them very soon :) Can't wait.
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Post by Sulla »

Lasthobbit wrote:Untill we haven't the new book i think that is quite useless to speak about strenghts and weaknesses of NEW corsairs. We just simple don't know how good or bad they are. We shall see them very soon :) Can't wait.


You reckon? I think we know enough about them to form some ideas. Unfortunately, things are not looking good for them. They seem to have no specific strengths (at least without a nearby cauldron or assassin).
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Post by Calisson »

Comparison between corsairs and ordinary DE need to take into account that with hatred, corsair re-roll two attacks when most other units reroll only 1. So the pts evaluation of hatred should be higher. This explains the apparent high cost of corsairs: they benefit more than other units from hatred.
Corsairs are good for their points only if you intend to attack. In a defensive posture, keep lancers.
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Post by Bounce »

On the other hand though a corsair has such a lower chance of wounding at S3 that rerolling to hiot doesn't help a lot. Especially if against WS3 or lower enemies.

Hatred is better for Cold One Knights or Executioners as they really can't afford to miss any of their small amount of attacks.

i.eWith Hatred
6 COK's with 6 attacks. Usually hit on 3's so 4 hit, the other two are rerolled and another hits.
Than 2's to wound T3 enemies so probably 5 wounds.
For a 4+ save(becomes 6+ due to lance) the enemy saves 1. Giving a total 4 wounds.

Without Hatred
Gives a total 3 wounds


Aagainst the same enemy the corsairs get 12 attacks. Hitting on 3's. 8 hit, 3 hit on rerolls.(rounding up)
Needing 4's to wound. Probably 5 wounds(rounding down)
For a 4+ save Gives a total of 2.5 wounds
Without Hatred
Gives a total of 2 wounds.

In general though Hatred only makes a small difference. Although is very useful when you have really bad luck but with averages doesn't change a lot.
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Post by Thanee »

Calisson wrote:Comparison between corsairs and ordinary DE need to take into account that with hatred, corsair re-roll two attacks when most other units reroll only 1. So the pts evaluation of hatred should be higher. This explains the apparent high cost of corsairs: they benefit more than other units from hatred.


I actually don't think that's the explanation (WE have 3 Attacks that benefit from Hatred and still went down 3pts in cost, 'only' losing 1 WS in the process, which alone isn't even worth a single point), but rather the new Slaver rule. They are very good at running down other infantry.


Bounce wrote:Hatred is better for Cold One Knights or Executioners as they really can't afford to miss any of their small amount of attacks.


Agreed. Hatred is best for those units... and Characters (Assassins!).

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Post by Moonblade »

Oh well, I hope Corsairs DO have some extra option/rule, otherwise they just don't properly fulfill any role. At least not any better than other units in their own army. As I see it, Corsairs are meant to be the assault infantry - one that marches boldly against the enemy line, advancing turn by turn and resisting archery/gunfire in the process. But is that really so? First of all they aren't THAT hard to kill with T3, 4+ AS. So they aren't good for cheap screening of others (say more hard-hitting units). In the same time they are not enough hard-hitting themselves so it's not a big deal if they DO reach the enemy line. For instance, harpies are far better for screen purposes and can advance faster for march-block or CC with archers. WE in other hand are far more damage-dealing provided they live enough to engage. Besides the WE+Harpies have a lovely sinergy - together (as 1 heavy hitter, and 1 screener/frenzy blocker) they could do miracles compared to 2 units of Corsairs which are half heavy hitting and half good at screening.(ie. being able to withstand some shooting).

Corsairs have always been medicore not because they are not cost-effective in comparison, they just dont quite fit with the rest of our army. They are just one all-rounded isolated unit, being good for nothing (In the same time being bad for nothing too). However I don't see how the repeater handbow was the the missing link in their concept. Why do we need them when we have rxbs warriors, DR, RBT, and good magic missiles.

As I love their new look (not quite as I imagined it, yet they are gorgeous) - I don't really like their rules as it doesn't match my play style. Probably some skilled general could utilize their multi-tasking better than me. For now I will stick to warriors, DR, harpies and WE.

Anyways, I would like to hear your opinion, merely as wishful thinking - what could have been added to Corsairs to make them truely shine. Cost drop? More specific role? More versatility (as if it's possible x} )?
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