Corsair Army Fluff and Tactics in new dex

Scactha · Post by **Scactha** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:06 am

I fail to see the comparison with DR. DR are amazing when left alone but they are pathetically fragile compared to 10 Corsairs for the same price.
I´ll even go out on a limb and say that I don´t even like fast cavalry that much. I find it way to easy to destroy with cheap means. Yes our Fast cavalry is the best, but it still the worst glass chin unit type in the game.

In my game experience I aim to remove auxilia first and divert main ACR units to sort out the battle field. Failing to remove that type of units (if they are in los) is a failure of mission. It´s very easy to get 3 wounds in on a T3 As6+ units. The meagrest MM or missile armed scouts are a deadly threat.

DR win as Wizard- and warmachinehunters but for the remaining roles I don´t buy their superiority. A flanker with 2xhw, 4+as vs shooting, 5+as in melee and can unload 11 shots with twice the number of wounds and a rank to boot is nothing to sneeze at. Finally they pursue almost as well as fast cav. Not to be ignored imho.

Lasthobbit · Post by **Lasthobbit** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:03 am

What to do for improve corsairs: I think that something like dwarf miners rule will be helpful. Arriving on turn 2 (4+) from the side of the board... that's the truly reaver's style. In that case i would take the 1+ units of corsairs every game.

Lord temnir · Post by **Lord temnir** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:30 pm

Okay, I think it's enough of whining guys! We have had Corsairs who had just handweapons. Now we get them upgraded by hatred AND those great handbows AND it does not cost us a point more and you are still not cool with that? I mean, they will be great! They can shoot on a short distance and cause your enemy some serious headache.
Not that they can cause loads of damage to non or lightly armoured units by shooting but if those unit's attack you will shoot again AND they still can win against the enemy!

So stop comparing the corsairs to other core units- their task's will be a bit unconventional but that's the point- we are druchii, so why don't we have something special?

Phierlihy · Post by **Phierlihy** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:26 pm

Frankly I like the new Corsairs! Give them their Corsair-only +1 attack banner, use a cauldron to give them killing blow, and you're blowing through stuff with ranks to boot!

I may not field them every game but I'll take having options over not having them anytime, thank you very much!

For all those players who aren't satisfied with the new Dark Elf book, I hear the High Elves are recruiting...

Xerasi · Post by **Xerasi** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:21 pm

Don't think I'll be using their rules, but the models sure are great

No whine from me

Gastronauticon · Post by **Gastronauticon** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:05 am

Point taken. :oops:

Lets try to evaluate this new unit somewhat objectively.

The three unknown factors which are causing debate here are:

1. The exact wording of the Slaver rule (may/must reroll highest dice and whether sucessful pursuits genterate extra VPs or not).

2. The various armament options for the corsairs and its costs. Shield? Rhb+hw? Etc

3. The properties of the repeater handbow. Depending on those two factors, the price difference between corsairs and spear/rxb warriors will be either justified or not. Based on rumors of some last minute nerfing on GWs behalf, there are (unconfirmed) fears that the latter will be true.

Now, as phierlihy pointed out, the corsairs have the potential to be real mean, provided that they are tweaked properly. This must of course be taken into account when evaluating the cost but not overly so. Pricing is made by ability of a unit, not by its potential to be furtherly improved by outer means as those means come at a price themselves.

Corsairs will be subject to AWR Hatred and recieve the special rule Slaver. Based on rumors, I would guess the prizing would be along these lines: The shield option, if existant, will cost 1pt. The rhb 2-3 pts or, if traded for one hw, 1pt.

This gives us the following, hypothetical, configurations:

1. As now: 2hw, seadragon cloak + light armor. 10ppm (confirmed?)

2. hw, sdc + shield. 11ppm

3. hw + repeater handbow, sdc + la. 11ppm

4. hw + rhb, sdc + la + sh?. 12-13ppm

5. 2hw + rhb?, sdc + la. 12-13ppm

Each configuration (if it exists) will fulfill a different role and will call for different unit sizes.

What configs/roles would you deem a useful/efficient use of points and for what?

Venkh · Post by **Venkh** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:51 am

IIRC the shield rumor has been completely debunked. We have:

Basic corsair 10 ppm 2 s3 attacks with hatred
Shooty corsair 10ppm 8" handbow (replaces a handweapon) shooting 1 attack with hatred
super shooty corsair 13 ppm 2x handbow 1 attack with hatred

I see the handbows as a one trick pony. Your opponent will know not to come within 8" and the corsairs just arent maneoverable enough to force the issue.

Personally I think I will use the handbows on my glade/dark riders. If I use corsairs I will be using them as CC troops with Fellheart and/or the frenzy banner.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:03 am

Corsais cannot have Shields
Rxb warriors can have Shields

Zeth · Post by **Zeth** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:39 am

Venkh wrote:I
super shooty corsair 13 ppm 2x handbow 1 attack with hatred

It seems the second RhB is only an option for the champ.

Undeadcatd · Post by **Undeadcatd** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:39 am

Frenzy Corsair Vs Witchelf
Pro : 5+ save ,4+against shooting , not khainate
Con: -1 I , no poison , more expensive with banner upgrade , not khainate

Corsair with RHB Vs Warriors with RXB , shield
Pro : maybe cheaper ,always stand and shoot
Con : weaker save in CC , short range(24 compare with 8!)

I would get withelf and warriors anytime.... :roll:

Venkh · Post by **Venkh** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:26 pm

It seems the second RhB is only an option for the champ.

That kind of seals the deal on RXB warriors then doesnt it. Corsairs are going to remain what they were in 6th. Nice models, rules for 'enthusiasts' only.

Aspiring executioner · Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:40 pm

I'm probably gonna have a unit of 13 corsairs joined by Lokhir Fellheart and have the frenzy banner to pair up with my Exec's armour piercing abilities with loads of attacks against hordes. I'd take Corsairs over Witches purely because of their save plus they are core.

Matras · Post by **Matras** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:07 pm

Well, if the opponent won't dare to come close that would make the Corsairs a good unit to protect the flanks. Against a M4 unit, they certainly would be able to get off a round of shots twice before going into HtH, and light cavalry should suffer even more against them. I mean, if you had 12 Corsairs in two rows of 6, with the Champ with additional handweapon, that would mean 14 shots at 5+ when charged. 5 hits, about 2 kills against light cavalry - enough for a panic-test.
Plus, imagine the following scenario: opponent with M4 and T3. You make sure your corsairs move within firing range, fire your RHBs. Against an opponent with 4+ AS (heavy armour, shield), that would be about 2 kills. No he either has to attack (costing him another ~2 dead) or he stands and takes even more casualties. Since we have hatred, he will have enough casualties - provided he wins - that this flanking unit will be badly damaged. Problem is - it only works against smaller units. If they are attacked by something bigger, they will be just run down. So - the new RHBs merit testing at least. Epxerience will tell the rest.

Deep one · Post by **Deep one** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:12 pm

IMO, regular, non-rhb Corsairs are a viable choice as assault infantry, especially if they have access to a 25P frenzy std. Deployed 7 models wide, you get 14-15 attacks, misses rerolled, a 4+ AS vs. shooting, a better-than-usual chance at catching a fleeing enemy and, with the frenzy std, an extra 7 attacks, ItP and a gratuitous range finder so n00bs like me won't have to worry wether they are in charge range or not.

As for the rhb feature, it looks like it's a very dissappointing mess, but I guess we haven't seen pictures of corsairs armed with rhbs yet for a reason, huh? :roll:

Edit: Also, I will get an awesome Cthulhu standard from them, which is a reason to celebrate all by itself!

Lord temnir · Post by **Lord temnir** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:41 pm

Okay, as I've got it right, the RhB won't give those guys the additional attack as I've heard it from a GW guy in Vienna. That makes them a little less effective, but they will still be better than those we have got now.

But whether they will have just nice models or even nice rules, I don't care- I've already decided to play a raiding force with loads of DR, corsairs and supporting fire from wawrriors with RxBows and RBT's.

In addition I've got an idea for a ship's captain riding a monster using the rules of a peg or Manticore. The base for the model would be the slaaneshi general with some (butterfly-like?) wings. What do you think about it?

Post by **Calisson** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:38 am

I've seen somewhere in D.net that the 2nd RhB is an option for ALL corsairs, not only the champ. Cost 3pts.
That leaves a line of shooty corsairs as an interesting alternative to investigate.

About the basic ones, I expect that the new Lokhir Fellheart will make an interesting combo with some standards. Still unsure which are the stadards available to corsairs (limit supposed to be at 25pts). I've not seen anywhere if the champ may take any magic weapon, I assume not, but I would like to know for sure. Not to forget the availability of one assassin. Overall, the basic corsair is not to be disregarded yet, we need a little more thinking about it.

For the fluff of my personal army, of course, I will definitively go for a corsair-heavy army. CORSAIRS NOT DEAD!

Yourmumrang · Post by **Yourmumrang** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:11 am

I like the idea of a single unit of 10 in a line as charge deterrant. Facing 40 s3 shots from dual xpistols is deadly for a lot of fast cav/light infantry. Heck it could even scare away Daemon infantry ('Letters and 'Nettes).

Mime · Post by **Mime** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:24 am

Calisson wrote:I've seen somewhere in D.net that the 2nd RhB is an option for ALL corsairs, not only the champ. Cost 3pts.
That leaves a line of shooty corsairs as an interesting alternative to investigate.

I dont know when you saw that but I have seen it said a few times that its only a Champ upgrade.

I am still undecided as to wether i will take them or not, there is just too much goodness coming our way in our other infantry that I dont think there will be room for them maore than anything else.

Would be unusual for GW though to release a new plastic kit that is'nt good for it's points, the need to sell them after all :twisted:

Cant help but feel that the RHB could be a missed opertunity though.

Post by **Calisson** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:25 pm

Here is the post telling about the 2nd HB for all corsairs:

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p= ... oot#677784

Quote
Milney
All Corsairs can take the 2nd Handbow for +3pts, and it doesn't suffer Move&Shoot or Long Range penalties.
Unquote

Lord temnir · Post by **Lord temnir** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:51 pm

YourMumRang wrote:I like the idea of a single unit of 10 in a line as charge deterrant. Facing 40 s3 shots from dual xpistols is deadly for a lot of fast cav/light infantry. Heck it could even scare away Daemon infantry ('Letters and 'Nettes).

As I remember someone said that those pistols will workas Mengils weapon, it would have 3 shots/RhB.
Someone other claimed that they count as an additional HW.

So can anyone who has REALLY held the new book in his hands and is sure what it says about these new xbows tell me what they really do?

thx a lot

Yourmumrang · Post by **Yourmumrang** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:44 pm

30 shots is still scary!

The griefbringer · Post by **The griefbringer** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:12 pm

YourMumRang wrote:30 shots is still scary!

Are you deploying your Corsairs 15 wide?

Folks who have held the new book have confirmed the 2x Mutlishot rule and the 8" range. We are looking at 10 shots and a 10 shot stand and shoot.

Scary? A little. Not as scary as the crowd of 20 Saurus (15 Quetzl style) about to run you down because you are in their charge range.

Let's break it down:
10 shots hitting @ 4s = 5 hits
5 hits @ T4 = ~2 wounds
2 Saves at 5+ (or 4+ w/Quetzl) = 1-2 kills

Saurus Charge
10 shots hitting @ 5s = 3-4 hits
3-4 hits @ T4 = ~1 wound
1 save at 5+/4+ = about 50% chance of a kill.

You have killed, maximum, 3 saurus. No panic test, they hit your lines, you croak.

"But Griefbringer," you say, "Saurus are a terrible enemy to use RhBs on! What about somebody weak!"

Okay, let's try it. 25 Empire Swordsmen, Full Command.

You move into their charge range and shoot:
10 shots on 4s = 5 hits
5 hits Vs T3 = 3-4 wounds
3-4 saves Vs 5+ AS = 2-3 dead Swordsmen

Stand and Shoot:
10 shots on 5s = 3-4 hits
3-4 hits @ T3 = 1-2 wounds
1-2 saves @ 5+ = ~1 wound, maybe 2.

You have killed maximum 5 Swordsmen, haven't taken off a rank, haven't caused any panic, and they still smack into you in assault. However, this time you don't have any extra hand weapons now.

Swordsmen Attack
6 swings, 3 hits, 1-2 wounds, ~1 dead corsair, maybe 2.

Corsairs
5 swings, ~4 hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead swordsman.

Combat Res (assuming 15 corsairs, given comparative costs)
Swordsmen: 6-7
Corsairs: 4

You lose combat by 2-3. Awesome.

The RhBs are terrible. If you want to shoot stuff, take RxB men, who do it better at longer range for pretty much the exact same price.

Vonkrieglitz · Post by **Vonkrieglitz** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:50 pm

The RhBs are terrible. If you want to shoot stuff, take RxB men, who do it better at longer range for pretty much the exact same price.

And with a 4+ AS in combat.

Entreri bloodletter · Post by **Entreri bloodletter** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:02 pm

Now I've never played with Corsairs before but I'm just to defending them a little before we actually get the book.

In your example you place full blocks of units against a small 10 man corsair unit. How exactly is that fair? And again, the place for corsairs is out on the flanks, hardly a place where full blocks of infantry are going to be. I would expect fast cav, maybe small units of knights, and things of that nature to be out on the flanks, infantry is just too slow to be there.

Assuming they are able to get two handbows I think they could be a viable option, rank fourteen of them up in two ranks. March them up and get in range of your target ( fast cav, other small flanking units are ideal) and unload your 4x multishot per model. So that's 28 shots right away and another 28 if they decide to charge. Against anything that is on the flanks, at least in my area, that is very scary indeed.

Bernh · Post by **Bernh** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:35 pm

Assuming they are able to get two handbows I think they could be a viable option, rank fourteen of them up in two ranks. March them up and get in range of your target ( fast cav, other small flanking units are ideal) and unload your 4x multishot per model. So that's 28 shots right away and another 28 if they decide to charge. Against anything that is on the flanks, at least in my area, that is very scary indeed.

You made here two mistakes:
- Corsairs can't shoot&march, they are not lightcav.
- RnF corsairs can't do 4x multishot - only 2x miltishot