I was wondering...
5 wide is certainly not good except for warriors.
6 wide seems reasonable, but should I take units of 12 or have a bit more models in case of a few deaths and keep at least Rank bonus of 1?
7 wide might be good for more attacks but that means more models as well, point costs will stack fast.
I also wonder what the playtesters had their units sized up to.
Unit Sizes when the new armybook's released?
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Silverheimdall
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Master of arneim
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5 wide for warriors and small warbands of corsairs
6 wide enough for unit with many attacks (like witches and black guard), optimal size for coks
7 wide a necessity for executioners I think.
The second rank isn't there really to take the +1 bonus, but only to keep the front rank complete because you'll have to loose 6/7 mnodels before loosing the front rank. Then on the bg is truly a must to keep charges and answer in the second turn.
6 wide enough for unit with many attacks (like witches and black guard), optimal size for coks
7 wide a necessity for executioners I think.
The second rank isn't there really to take the +1 bonus, but only to keep the front rank complete because you'll have to loose 6/7 mnodels before loosing the front rank. Then on the bg is truly a must to keep charges and answer in the second turn.
Master of Arneim, proud ruler of the cult of the thousand draichs, because bigger is better.
Why is 5 wide bad?
Wider is not always better.
Often it ends up being an inefficient use of points to take 12 or 14 strong units instead of 10.
The cost to effect ratio is not good for most units, and if you plan on combining most charges you are just going to misspend more of your resources.
I prefer to take units of 10 for Active Combat Res infantry units. Most of the time fielding them 5 wide, against some opponents I may opt to put them 6 or 7 with no rank bonus. Although I choose to do this infrequently.
I think that trying to field units smaller then 10 is a bit of a 'lame duck' option.
Fielding our elite infantry 7 big just looks so weaker and easier to kill, which should result in our opponents shooting and killing such units. I know if against such units they would attract a lot of my bow fire. While if 10 big, where I need to kill 6 models to reduce the potency of the unit, each wound I do to a 7 big will largely weaken it.
At 10 big the unit will also have a chance of entering combat with a rank, providing it a little extra help to break those blocks if it goes in alone or with out the assistance of a Static Combat Res unit. Also due to the special slots being a limited resources I want to feel I'm using those slots to their most useful potential.
Saving the points for 3 models when moving from 10 down to 7 does not feel worthwhile to me. However, moving from 10 up to 14 or 12, I feel a diminishing return in those points.
Shades are the exception. I will probably field them 7 big, although making them 9 provides a few bonuses: do not lose combat effect if they take a couple wounds, harder to panic, and they can still use those extra models to shoot. I don't find the trade off worthwhile.
Shades are already going to attract little or no bow fire (although probably all of my opponents magic missiles, wonder if the champ has magic item allotment for the null talisman or ring of hotek, probably not though), and trying to place 9 scouting models instead of 7 could restrict where I have the ability to place them.
Wider is not always better.
Often it ends up being an inefficient use of points to take 12 or 14 strong units instead of 10.
The cost to effect ratio is not good for most units, and if you plan on combining most charges you are just going to misspend more of your resources.
I prefer to take units of 10 for Active Combat Res infantry units. Most of the time fielding them 5 wide, against some opponents I may opt to put them 6 or 7 with no rank bonus. Although I choose to do this infrequently.
I think that trying to field units smaller then 10 is a bit of a 'lame duck' option.
Fielding our elite infantry 7 big just looks so weaker and easier to kill, which should result in our opponents shooting and killing such units. I know if against such units they would attract a lot of my bow fire. While if 10 big, where I need to kill 6 models to reduce the potency of the unit, each wound I do to a 7 big will largely weaken it.
At 10 big the unit will also have a chance of entering combat with a rank, providing it a little extra help to break those blocks if it goes in alone or with out the assistance of a Static Combat Res unit. Also due to the special slots being a limited resources I want to feel I'm using those slots to their most useful potential.
Saving the points for 3 models when moving from 10 down to 7 does not feel worthwhile to me. However, moving from 10 up to 14 or 12, I feel a diminishing return in those points.
Shades are the exception. I will probably field them 7 big, although making them 9 provides a few bonuses: do not lose combat effect if they take a couple wounds, harder to panic, and they can still use those extra models to shoot. I don't find the trade off worthwhile.
Shades are already going to attract little or no bow fire (although probably all of my opponents magic missiles, wonder if the champ has magic item allotment for the null talisman or ring of hotek, probably not though), and trying to place 9 scouting models instead of 7 could restrict where I have the ability to place them.
Last edited by Zeth on Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Decker_cky
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I think in 10 man units, barring a lack of space in the battle line, running 7 wide is generally a better idea. You don't really lose manoeuvrability, and can put out a lot more attacks, which is particularly important for active CR units.
Shades I'm thinking of running in units of 7 or 8, since that makes them small, but big enough to take out most any light unit.
If my unit is a little deeper, such as the 18 man ASF black guard unit I'm planning, I'll make them 5 wide to force a little more attention if opponents want to reduce their effectiveness. For a unit with such a large target on their heads, the small frontage will allow me to screen them more effectively in early turns.
Crossbowmen and corsairs with handbows should be set as wide as possible to maximize shots.
Shades I'm thinking of running in units of 7 or 8, since that makes them small, but big enough to take out most any light unit.
If my unit is a little deeper, such as the 18 man ASF black guard unit I'm planning, I'll make them 5 wide to force a little more attention if opponents want to reduce their effectiveness. For a unit with such a large target on their heads, the small frontage will allow me to screen them more effectively in early turns.
Crossbowmen and corsairs with handbows should be set as wide as possible to maximize shots.
Why not take a standard instead of 7 wide units?
Much cheaper in actual cost, for essentially the same effect, of one higher CR.
All of our units are probably going to do enough damage against our opponents at 5 wide to prevent any or more then 1 attack back.
Sure it gives the opponent 100 points if the unit dies in CC, ~50 more then the unit would if 14 big. However it also saves you ~35 points a unit. Do this to two units and you have a unit of harpies, or very close to 5 shades. The standard is also likely to be more useful if you do get charged as well.
The standard won't help if you combine charge with another unit with a standard. But neither will those extra models.
7 wide units also make it easier for your opponent to get more units on your unit, and can provide easier charges for your opponent if you do not break the unit on the first round.
Lots of people like the 7 wide units, I get why they are appealing. But the advantages don't outweigh the disadvantages for me. If you really need an little extra umph from the 10 big unit, I think there is just more efficient ways to do it.
Or take those extra points from a couple of the units and get your self something more useful, like DR's, harpies, a CoC, assassin (naked but still).
Much cheaper in actual cost, for essentially the same effect, of one higher CR.
All of our units are probably going to do enough damage against our opponents at 5 wide to prevent any or more then 1 attack back.
Sure it gives the opponent 100 points if the unit dies in CC, ~50 more then the unit would if 14 big. However it also saves you ~35 points a unit. Do this to two units and you have a unit of harpies, or very close to 5 shades. The standard is also likely to be more useful if you do get charged as well.
The standard won't help if you combine charge with another unit with a standard. But neither will those extra models.
7 wide units also make it easier for your opponent to get more units on your unit, and can provide easier charges for your opponent if you do not break the unit on the first round.
Lots of people like the 7 wide units, I get why they are appealing. But the advantages don't outweigh the disadvantages for me. If you really need an little extra umph from the 10 big unit, I think there is just more efficient ways to do it.
Or take those extra points from a couple of the units and get your self something more useful, like DR's, harpies, a CoC, assassin (naked but still).
Last edited by Zeth on Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Raneth
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Ehm, for now I'm sticking to 10-strong. 7-wide has long been a favourite of mine but I wouldn't even invest in extra ranks now, let alone when stuff gets more expensive.
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I have always used 5 wide, although this is mainly because of the size of my movement trays.
On the other hand though if you take 14, why not than ust take 1 more and have 3 ranks of 5. As half the time those extra two models are unlikely to wound while you will always get the rank bonus.
i.e If 2 witches, hit on 3's wound on 4's with a 4+ save is around 1/3 wounds. Popping the 4 witches to a back rank is +1 CR.
On the other hand though if you take 14, why not than ust take 1 more and have 3 ranks of 5. As half the time those extra two models are unlikely to wound while you will always get the rank bonus.
i.e If 2 witches, hit on 3's wound on 4's with a 4+ save is around 1/3 wounds. Popping the 4 witches to a back rank is +1 CR.
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Mordru
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Lots of good points on both sides of this discussion.
It depends on the structure of your army and what other units you are using and how they are being used.
In 6th edition I almost always fielded Exes 6 wide, witches 7 wide and everything else (warriors mostly 5 wide) With 5 wide you can more easily get a chariot in support to charge as well and this becomes tough witha 7 wide unit. The mutual maximizing of models in combat changes things in 7th edition. Witches still benefit from 7 wide to rain in attacks against enemy 5 wide units you can still get them all fighting easily.
With special slot infantry I like to take 12-14 just to make sure I can take a few casualties and still maintain full combat effectiveness. Since our T3 elite elves die so easily I have found that the wider frontage to maximize attacks typically yields better results than trying to maintain a rank bonus.
It depends on the structure of your army and what other units you are using and how they are being used.
In 6th edition I almost always fielded Exes 6 wide, witches 7 wide and everything else (warriors mostly 5 wide) With 5 wide you can more easily get a chariot in support to charge as well and this becomes tough witha 7 wide unit. The mutual maximizing of models in combat changes things in 7th edition. Witches still benefit from 7 wide to rain in attacks against enemy 5 wide units you can still get them all fighting easily.
With special slot infantry I like to take 12-14 just to make sure I can take a few casualties and still maintain full combat effectiveness. Since our T3 elite elves die so easily I have found that the wider frontage to maximize attacks typically yields better results than trying to maintain a rank bonus.
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5 wide is more maneuverable.
In a 10 unit, either you keep 5 wide and have an additional rank (until one is shooted down), or you go 7-wide and get 2 more attacks against 5 infantry opposite to you, which may help your ACR... and lessen the fight back from the enemy!
Against wider base such as cavalry, it may be wise to keep 5 wide infantry units, spoiling them from 1 attack.
In a 10 unit, either you keep 5 wide and have an additional rank (until one is shooted down), or you go 7-wide and get 2 more attacks against 5 infantry opposite to you, which may help your ACR... and lessen the fight back from the enemy!
Against wider base such as cavalry, it may be wise to keep 5 wide infantry units, spoiling them from 1 attack.
Last edited by Calisson on Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Entreri bloodletter
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For warriors I would definitely keep them 5 wide to max CR. For the elites I will probably run them in multiples of six. With cheaper WE I might be tempted to run them in a unit of 18, with a mix of both active and passive CR. Black Guard will probably be 12 or so. Six wide seems just about right to me, get lots of attacks in and yet not to wide to make manuevering a big problem. And with an army like ours, the movement phase is key.
I have found exe's (and I assume BG and other elites also) work best in unit sizes 12-14, no more, no less. This way, with a frontage of 7 they still get maximum attacks against a standard 5-wide unit, and at least begin the battle with +1 rank.
You can calculate whether 2 extra executioners in the front rank gives you more or less than +1CR until the cows come home, but the bigest benefit I have found is when things go wrong, and your elites end up getting charged. 2 extra frontage then becomes 2 more retaliatory attacks back than you would have had.
You can calculate whether 2 extra executioners in the front rank gives you more or less than +1CR until the cows come home, but the bigest benefit I have found is when things go wrong, and your elites end up getting charged. 2 extra frontage then becomes 2 more retaliatory attacks back than you would have had.
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Decker_cky
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Zeth wrote:Why not take a standard instead of 7 wide units?
Much cheaper in actual cost, for essentially the same effect, of one higher CR.
All of our units are probably going to do enough damage against our opponents at 5 wide to prevent any or more then 1 attack back.
Sure it gives the opponent 100 points if the unit dies in CC, ~50 more then the unit would if 14 big. However it also saves you ~35 points a unit. Do this to two units and you have a unit of harpies, or very close to 5 shades. The standard is also likely to be more useful if you do get charged as well.
The standard won't help if you combine charge with another unit with a standard. But neither will those extra models.
7 wide units also make it easier for your opponent to get more units on your unit, and can provide easier charges for your opponent if you do not break the unit on the first round.
Lots of people like the 7 wide units, I get why they are appealing. But the advantages don't outweigh the disadvantages for me. If you really need an little extra umph from the 10 big unit, I think there is just more efficient ways to do it.
Or take those extra points from a couple of the units and get your self something more useful, like DR's, harpies, a CoC, assassin (naked but still).
I think you're kind of missing what's being described. You use 5x2. Theoretically...that has 1 rank, but in general gaming terms, you'll almost always take at least the 1 cas and have extra models adding only US. Run those same 10 models with a rank of 7 and a rank of 3 and you need to lose 4 models before you lose any combat effectiveness. Against any unit with ranks you can fit all your attacks in, you aren't losing significant manoeuvrability, and you can generate a little more ACR.
Anything you're building for ranks is generally worth running 5 wide though.
Not true. My opponents shoot at my DR's, 20 strong SCR block, CoK's, or manticore just as often. So while it certainly does happen, it is certainly not an 'almost always' situation.decker_cky wrote:I think you're kind of missing what's being described. You use 5x2. Theoretically...that has 1 rank, but in general gaming terms, you'll almost always take at least the 1 cas and have extra models adding only US.
But regardless, this is not at all relevant to why I do not take 12-14 big units.
I know precisely what is being described, and do not think those units are worth while. And the problem you present above would be the same for a 12 to 14 man unit.
I am a strong believer in 7 wide for executioners and Black Guard. And I use corsairs 6 wide.
I use 7 wide because they are my frontal charge units so ideally I set up flank and rear charges. Also the 7 wide gives enough attacks to generate the active combat resolution I want. Also use them with 13 models and full command. As they generate an extra +2 combat resolution. And with the BG and Execs You can generally generate 3 or 4 kills so with the +2 resolution it helps if you have to charge with no immediate help.
I use 7 wide because they are my frontal charge units so ideally I set up flank and rear charges. Also the 7 wide gives enough attacks to generate the active combat resolution I want. Also use them with 13 models and full command. As they generate an extra +2 combat resolution. And with the BG and Execs You can generally generate 3 or 4 kills so with the +2 resolution it helps if you have to charge with no immediate help.