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Tactical musings on the new book 
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Highborn
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These musings are based only on the rumours floating on these forums and so may be wrong.

With the new book we maintain most of our weaknesses and have gained a few new ones. We still have plenty of frenzy and stupid troops and hatred has made us subject to even more baiting and luring. At first sight this may sound bad as a competent opponent with use this to disrupt your battleline and engage your units in the flank or simply lure they out of the battle. But we have gained hitting power and I believe the addition of harpies as a core choice is the solution to the weaknesses of hatred, stupidity and frenzy.

Harpies besides black guards have gained the most in the new book in my oppinion. Being able to use the generals LD and not causing panic in regular troops makes the harpy ideel to support our army.

Multiple small units of harpies will do the usual hunting of warmachines, mages and other light units, but it is the role as a sacrifical unit in which I see them exceel. I will likely be using a unit for each of my main combat units. Harpies placed behind an enemy unit can stop your units pursueing too long because of hatred or if your formation is wider than your opponents you could place them right infront of your own unit, placed of course so as to allow the harpies and the unit to charge again next turn possibly against different targets. Also placing harpies in front of your frenzy units will make it easier to control them. And now that panic is less of a problem for harpies because of the generals LD you will only need 1-2 harpies to prevent your opponent from luring your unit. Also if they get charged just infront of your units you can opt to hold and have your opponent overrun into you forcing him to fight in your turn giving you time to countercharge and possibly give a wardsave via the COB. You can now do this without fearing panic tests.

Having a unit of harpies hanging back behind the main lines to act as firebrigade when stupidity and frenzy shows it's ugly face will be game changing for me I belive.

Other stuff I have been thinking about are of course the black guard. This unit has so many nice options. Assuming the unit seize is now 5+ we can do the same trick as VC, where we place a unit 1 wide and 5 deep and with the champion in the front. This way your opponent can only kill the champion and even with overkill you will test on LD 9, because of ItP even undead will be stopped, giving you time to flank charge. Also we should consider strange formations like a 3x3 formation, where we minimize frontage to deny enemy attacks but obtain rank breaking ability and more mobility compared to a 1x9-10 formation.

The inclusion of different range shooting weapons give us some new options when these are mixed in a unit. Stand and shoot is allways resolved when all models are in range so a unit with RXB and a single RHB would allways be stand and shooting at max range 8" so no long range penalty, something to think about. Here is for hoping that RXB warriors can take a champion with a RHB :D

This is all for now and more will hopefully come as I begin to test play with the rumours.

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Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:02 pm
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Executioner
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This sounds funny to me but who actually plays such formations? (I've never seen something like that...)

The trick with the harpies sounds sensible to me, though the firebrigade thing is not really that useful- it gives you time, but a charge to take is still pretty bad!

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Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:35 pm
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I don't think the 1x5 black guard formation is too great because it wastes a special choice each. It's sort of like black orcs, who would be incredible at core in little units that auto-waagh, but the specials are so key to the army.

I think contrary to some people's playing styles, black guard bunkers could be great though. Similar to the wood elf eternal guard bunkers, but with a better unit that isn't actually dependent on having characters in it.

With options opened by the cauldron of blood, there's many interesting options. I was considering how good a dreadlord with a 1+ save, inverse ward, regeneration and the hydra blade could be when you target his unit with killing blow. He'll average 6 attacks per turn, rerolling to hit (nearly always on a 3+) with killing blow. In a challenge with an opponent with a 5+ ward save, that has a 46% chance of scoring a successful killing blow (61.717% without ward). Put him in a large ASF black guard unit, then fill the rest of the army with mobile points denial units (DR as core, and harpies, shades, and hydras filling out the list along with a caddy and cauldron). Should make an effective army.


Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:07 pm
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Highborn
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While I'm not going to be running BGs in a 1x5, they are significantly better than VC at it, as they can't crumble. If we takw the opponents champion out of the consideration, they'll be unlucky if they dont hold a 1A/model unit for at least 3 turns. They'll even be good at charge-pinning, as they'll be striking first, likely killing 1-2 models.

but wouldnt a 5 wide unit be better? they can easily pin, they strike a lot harder, and against most units they'll work even better.

A 3x3 unit is imho redicules. you allow the whole enemy front rank to strike providing they are on 20mm bases.

I'd by far choose 5x2 than 3x3 as the former outclasses 3x3 by everythin except a bit mobility for just 13 pts.

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Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:22 pm
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Highborn
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The point of the 1 wide 5 deep formation is not to kill enemy models but to hold up an enemy unit for atleast 1 turn allowing you to countercharge. You include only a champion and no banner. 1 wide and that model being the champion only he can get killed! If 5 wide there is nothing to stop your opponent from killing all 5 models!

If facing atleast 5 wide calvary only 4 would be able to strike against a 3x3 formation again keeping those models alive to hold another turn. I'm not saying you should deploy them in that formation from the beginning but it should be a tool in your box. when your facing down a calvary charge!

Actually taking a charge and fighting it out in your turn is a huge advantage. All attacks by chargers are done in initiativ order, meaning your countercharging unit could(because of superior elven I) be killing most of the opponents front rank leaving not much to hit the original charged unit!

About the lack of special choices, I don't see it as a problem. Our units are still pretty expensive so you won't be able to field that many units. Say a unit of cold one knights, a large BG and a small BG unit plus a unit of shades would be a fine selection of special choices in my oppinion.

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:28 am
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Something that might be worth considering in the new book is the new breath weapon of the dragon - S3, target has to take a Ld test at -3 to charge the following turn. Now that Dominion is gone, this could be an extremely useful ability to dictate the opponent's behaviour. Add Doom&Darkness to that, and almost no army that is not ItP will have a chance to move, especially if you get several units at once. Add to that maybe a Master with the Terror-mask and you can break up your opponents nicely. Working even better now that we have units to remove any warmachines that might prove troublesome for our monsters.

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:08 pm
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Just too bad that everybody and their grandmother plays VC and demons these days...

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:32 pm
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Haplo: Those ItP armies are getting also on my nerves (I play one of those silly RBT, rxb, magic lists) but I'm sure that those days are over soon... Give it a year or so :P

No, I don't think this will be the only tactic you use in a game but just a possible way to win faster if possible. ;)

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:07 pm
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I like the idea of the RHB with the crossbows, I may have to look into that.

For me one of the things I'm most excited about is the new lores we can use. Its rumoured that we can use both fire and metal and metal in particular will be a huge benefit to us. It helps with all those pesky armoured foes that normally we have a tough time with.

I am definitely looking forward to the Druchii magic phase.


Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:23 pm
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Considering the rumours, there is a very, very good chance that VC will have a living hell of a time with us. Pun intended. Ring of Hotek, anyone? Let's see how this Vampire-count casts his spell after the third or fourth miscast.

As for Demons - I am not impressed by their book. Seriously not.

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:43 pm
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Rumors are getting very solid now.
Two persons having seen the book giving information, no one else having seen the book denies anything, it is getting close to the real document.

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=681133#681133

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:30 pm
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Matras wrote:
As for Demons - I am not impressed by their book. Seriously not.

I am. I think Daemons are powerful and suitably balanced, which is how they should be. And nearly every AB released for 7th Edition has the odd overpowered build in it , so ...

... wait a minute! Which is ours going to be??? :shock:

Sorry for the threadcrapping.


Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:35 pm
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Daemons are a balanced army in my oppinion. Every daemon army has its weakness and as a DE player you have to find and make a use of it.

I believe that the new DE will be incredible against tomb kings, vampire counts and daemons as they are a lot easier to control than wood elves for instance. And the fact that they don`t break means that we don`t need to pursue and therefor almost neglect all the downsides of hatred. We will still need to overrun but what the heck...


Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:47 pm
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Highborn
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Probably shade list of doom. Ad magic, ad ring of hotek. Now you got a list that's very hard to shoot down, it's very dangerous to try to magic down, it's got evil shooting, and is great at CC. It is better to using terrain than any list but Woodies, it hits harder than any skirmisher list (especially with hydras, who also act as skirmishers with the advantage of breaking ranks. It's got cheap and good flyers, as well as core fast cav, that hit like a ton of bricks (imho, the hatred is just so good, they can take on almost anything on a flank charge now).

If you try to beat it with CC you'll be exposed to fire, and if you don't threaten the whole table, DR's are gonna get behind you and rearcharge. When you get close enough, you'll be baited into receiving a hydra charge, with possible shade support. It's great at point denying, whilst it can take an opponent on in any phase of the game.

Well, at least that's my guess :)

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:00 pm
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as far as I know, the manticore is the only unit that has the possiblity of frenzy and he's testing on the riders ld so the chances of him failing are only about 25%, same as stupidity. How does hatred make you more open to baits and lures and disrupting your battleline? Hatred forces you to pursue, it doesn't force you to charge, only frenzy does that, and if you weren't sheilding your witches before, then you got what you deserved leaving them out there in the open. I'm gonna assume that to use the LD of the general, the harpies are going to have to be in range which now means your general is babysitting core units. Depending on how many you run, he's not gonna be able to cover all of them, so if you base some of your strategy on that, be prepared to have it go awry sometime. Also, if the opponent overruns into you on his charge, then that's his charge on your turn. I think I understand what your were trying to say, I think you just wrote it wrong.

On a side note, if someone ran a 1 X 10 unit that really wasn't in the spirit of the game, that would be the last time I played him...

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:11 pm
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The Ld of the General for the harpies will only be useful as long as they are within range or if we have a highly mobile general who happens to be in the same place as said harpies. Using him to shepherd them would be a serious mistake.

As for shielding witches - @courgar, before the new list with the core harpies, what did we have to shield them with? That is one of the reasons AFAIK that so few people ever used them.

As for Demons - misunderstanding, I didn't mean that they have a bad or unbalanced book, I just meant that I don't consider it as problematic as VCs, for instance.

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:22 pm
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I think you might see a few dragon lord lists with literally clouds of harpies around him. As a large target flyer he can charge over the harpies (and of course still be shot) but it will be much harder to tarpit the dragon lord and the harpies can be used to redirect and sacrifice as needed.

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:01 pm
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20" charge means you cover a pretty large area by starting with at least one model within 12" of the general. They'll get the charges they want in.


Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:11 pm
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Highborn
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Matras wrote:
Considering the rumours, there is a very, very good chance that VC will have a living hell of a time with us. Pun intended. Ring of Hotek, anyone? Let's see how this Vampire-count casts his spell after the third or fourth miscast.

As for Demons - I am not impressed by their book. Seriously not.


How are you going to do that when he is mass raising on a single die with the master bloodline and the skullstaff?

I belive Deamon are not balanced. They are the top tier army at the moment with access to incredible combos and with a very low degree of uncertainty.

About the LD of harpies I don't se how hard it is to keep them within 12" of the general when needing to make that importent charge against a fear causing unit or make a panic test if screening. When out there redirecting you don't need the leadership as you will be fleeing. About a 1 wide formation is it any worse than a 10 wide formation of unbreakable troops like flagelants offering only min of models in combat if you manage to get a flank charge? It's just good tactics to use the best of your troops!

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Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:19 pm
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Noble
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As I already said, it is naturally not going to be possible to stop the bounds or the singular dice. But for those, we have the traditional DD and scrolls. The ring is as useful as it is because it will prevent (or at least make our opponents think about) the use of higher-level spells for which one needs multiple dice. Our opponent has to choose between using less dice - less chance of activating the spell, bigger chance of us dispelling it - or more dice - bigger chance of a critical miscast potentially resulting in the loss of a character.
Which, in turn, means that we DO have DD's and scolls left for the bounds and single-dice stuff. Add to that the Seal and VCs and their magic suddenly does not seem so bad.

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Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:56 am
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Interesting stuff. I think some of it is a bit too theoryhammer, though, to be honest. In particular, I think you vastly overestimate the downsides of Hatred. The added killing power Hatred provides (rubber lance syndrome reduced or Witch Elves with CoB Killing Blow, for example) vastly outweighs the occasional time when you are forced to pursue and don't want to.

I have never understood why people harp so much on the minor downside of Hatred, when the upside is quite powerful...

Mark my words, our new book could be THE strongest book of 7th Edition to date. All signs point to an extremely versatile and powerful list...

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Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:51 am
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Not THE most powerful, Grogsnot, there are still VC's out there, and the ASF-Asur. But certainly one that is highly interesting to play with which will give us a lot of different army-lists, all of which have a reasonable chance at being successful (other than this edition with its "Hydra-banner, COKs, DRs, done"-syndrome).

On the hatred, I agree, I don't quite understand the problem, either.

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Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:11 am
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Highborn

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I wouldn't worry to much about high elves, with the list I intend to make I'd pity any high elves I encounter. ASF would be unimportant in the face of impact hits, high toughness, good shooting and extremely high mobility.


Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:11 am
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Impact hits...hmmmmmm...Thinking about that, against Asur, a Dreadlord in a Chariot could actually be fun...how much do they have that does S7 hits?

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Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:44 am
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Highborn
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Big evil dragon is the only thing I can think of...

Personally I believe that the new DE are going to be at least as strong as VC, or just as strong, but with several different options. We've got quite a boost in every phase of the game. We've got greater mobility, we've got better magehunting, we've got better magic (Who cares about no dominion, we've got more lores to chose from so we have a tactical advantage compared to rolling a 5 for the spell that we want), we've gotten better inf, cav, monsters, better items, shooting... Add in cheaper over the line with the exception of characters who see a minor point increase. I'd say that our book has almost doubled in strength with just a minor weakness as Grog points out. A weakness that can be negated with harpies stopping overruns, and harpies preventing charges (if placed correctly).

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Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:24 am
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