The new book summary, as reported by Milney

Javert · Post by **Javert** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:27 am

....so you're saying that Black Guard have a rule that lets them re-roll all hits in every round of combat, and makes them always pursue. And another rule that lets them re-roll hits in every round of combat. Yeah, if you still thinks that's so, read it again until you understand what you're suggesting.

On another note, WOOO! Eternal Hatred War Hydras!

Dies irae · Post by **Dies irae** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:31 am

No, they have one Rule that lets them re-roll all hits in every round of combat, and one that lets them always pursue.

Bernh · Post by **Bernh** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:02 am

....so you're saying that Black Guard have a rule that lets them re-roll all hits in every round of combat, and makes them always pursue. And another rule that lets them re-roll hits in every round of combat.

No. They have a rule that lets them re-roll all hits in first round of combat, and makes them always pursue. And another rule that lets them re-roll hits in every round of combat.

Yeah, if you still thinks that's so, read it again until you understand what you're suggesting.

I'm not suggesting, I'm informing.

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:06 am

Um... Bernh hit it spot on - the elite warrior rule has its uses. And even though I'm not a mod, I think you could try and be a bit more polite, Javert

We all sometimes make mistakes (whether we read or type something wrong) and there is no need to put someone down for a small mistake.

Although I must say that I expected the best soldiers of the Druchii to be disciplined enough to avoid storming after a single fleeing swordsman :lol:

HUZZAH!

Bernh · Post by **Bernh** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:13 am

Although I must say that I expected the best soldiers of the Druchii to be disciplined enough to avoid storming after a single fleeing swordsman Laughing

How they can? They are Druchii, not pesky potters

Jankiel · Post by **Jankiel** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:27 am

A few corrections to this compilation.

Magic

Word of pain - it lasts one turn, not remains in play as in previous armybook

Black horror - models touched by template are affected (so no rolling on 4+)

Magic items

Executioners axe - as before, in addition d3 wounds, 80 pts

Blood armour - 15 pts, only wounds in hth counts

Reverse ward save (pendant of khaeleth) - roll equal or under attack Strenght

Seal of ghrond - 30 pts

crystal of midnight - it works automatically, its not bound spell

Javert · Post by **Javert** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:39 am

Mr. Anderson wrote:Um... Bernh hit it spot on - the elite warrior rule has its uses. And even though I'm not a mod, I think you could try and be a bit more polite, Javert We all sometimes make mistakes (whether we read or type something wrong) and there is no need to put someone down for a small mistake.

Although I must say that I expected the best soldiers of the Druchii to be disciplined enough to avoid storming after a single fleeing swordsman

HUZZAH!

Including me, it appears. Though, I may justify it by the fact that Eternal Hatred kind of suggests that that you re-roll hits in every round of combat...otherwise why call it Eternal Hatred and not just Hatred? Sorry if I appeared impolite, but I wasn't trying to "put anyone down" just replying in a way I felt appropriate to someone who I thought was being rude to me.

Bernh · Post by **Bernh** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:14 am

Eternal Hatred lets to reroll all hits every round when fighting against High Elves.

Hawillis · Post by **Hawillis** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:02 pm

I have kinda posted similar to this in another thread, but there must be some mistake on the reverse ward. Even if its roll below attacking strength (not equal to an below as sometimes quotes) this item will be the best item ever written.
Someone please check what this item actually does, because even without reading the book, something is clearly wrong (maybe you missed a use only once or something).

The only way this item would be reasonable is if the comment about 1s AND 6s being instant fails were correct. Then the item might be correctly priced.

Bernh · Post by **Bernh** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:14 pm

There are very clear wording. It is permanent true ward with a roll under or equal strength of the hit, always fail on 6. 1s also is under strength.

The skaerkrow · Post by **The skaerkrow** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:35 pm

bernh wrote:Eternal Hatred lets to reroll all hits every round when fighting against High Elves.

So against High Elves, Expert Warrior basically gives the Black Guard something to fall back on when facing a unit with the Standard of Balance (the one that cancels Frenzy and Hatred).

Hawillis wrote:I have kinda posted similar to this in another thread, but there must be some mistake on the reverse ward. Even if its roll below attacking strength (not equal to an below as sometimes quotes) this item will be the best item ever written.
Someone please check what this item actually does, because even without reading the book, something is clearly wrong (maybe you missed a use only once or something).

The only way this item would be reasonable is if the comment about 1s AND 6s being instant fails were correct. Then the item might be correctly priced.

Ok, seriously? It's really not that amazing. Good item? Sure, but this isn't the new Shadow Field (Dark Eldar reference) or anything. You'll see plenty of lists not running the Pendant.

Khel · Post by **Khel** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:41 pm

Perhaps the first ward save is really crap? But then you'd have to roll that reverse thing more often meaning better chance on survival really... Hmm, this is quite tricky. We really need the correct wording here or this argument will just keep going.

Bernh · Post by **Bernh** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:48 pm

Here it is:

Pendant of Khaeleth 35 points
Worn by the first High Mistress of the Dark Convent,
this amulet’s protective aura grows greater the
stronger the blow landed upon it.
This gives a ward save, based upon the Strength of the
hit. Roll a D6 for every wound suffered by the wearer,
on a roll equal to or under the attack’s Strength, the hit
is ignored. Rolls of 6 always fail.

Patrizzo · Post by **Patrizzo** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:57 pm

Well, this item is very good. But it's not a "true" ward save as it only save you from attacks with a S value. A giant's pick-up will for example go right through it, as will quite a few spells. Not that this makes it bad in any way, but it's not THE ward save of all times. And on top of that, it's still carried by an elf.

Bernh · Post by **Bernh** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:59 pm

Well, this item is very good. But it's not a "true" ward save as it only save you from attacks with a S value. A giant's pick-up will for example go right through it, as will quite a few spells.

Umm, yes.

Khel · Post by **Khel** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:02 pm

So a ward save based upon the strength of the enemy as well as the D6 under strength ignore roll. There has to be more to it, surely? If not then wow, move over HSoD.

Hawillis · Post by **Hawillis** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:10 pm

Right thanks for pointing out that it only works against attack with a strength value.
However having said its the greatest magical item ever let me explain why:
The lowest attack that can reallistically touch your elf general is strength 3. Note however that not many str.3 troops are any good. They are liable to be hitting you on 5s/4s and are more likely to be hitting R&F troops to generate combat res assuming your general has a good AS. If we assume the general has a good AS then few low strength hits are gong to be coming his way: no one likes to attack into a 2+ save and if they are, well, then our general is protected enough!

Now when a stronger man hits him (or a great weapon guy whatever) the ward increases. A strength 5 man hitting you is the equivalent of a 2+ ward save. That is unbelievable.

Ward saves become exponentially better the better they are.
Ignoring KB, and combat resolution and things:
- Giving a general a 5+ ward effectively increases his number of wounds by 50%
- A 4+ ward increases his effective number of wounds by 100%
- A 3+ ward gives 300%
- A 2+ ward gives 600%

So this makes the inverse ward the natural character bashing defence item.
What Im saying is tha if I fight an orc or vampire general they will have to wound (aka beat my DE armour save) 18 times on average to kill a highbourn. That is why this item will be SICK. Worst case scenario, str3 its a 4+ ward that would have cost 45 points. But as the enemies get stronger, they ward explodes in effectiveness.

Post by **Calisson** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:20 pm

The French did confirmed the changes atributed to them.
I also included changes signalled by Jankiel.
All of them having seen the new book (it seems that copies are becoming more and more abundant - THE DAY is getting closer).

I may try to remove the colours in the text during the WE. It was helpful to spot the changes, it is becomeing less useful after a couple of days.
I will also remove some comments made initially by Milney, becoming irrelevant now that we get more solid info.

Thanks to all of you, gifted crystal ball readers, that contributed to the acceleration of everyone's knowledge by sharing it here.

I hope that it will accelerate the domination of Druchii over WHB world! (especially in the games I play)

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:39 pm

Jankiel wrote:Executioners axe - as before, in addition d3 wounds, 80 pts

D3 wounds makes that a decent weapon actually. You have to depend on your armour save with it, but you can kill basically anything. Probably won't be taken too much, but it's worth the points with D3 wounds.

Entreri bloodletter · Post by **Entreri bloodletter** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:00 pm

Agreed about the pendant, it seems WAY too good for 35 points. Every other army will be complaining about this and how impossible it is to kill the character with it.

I can see a dragon lord that won't even be touched, its now easier to kill the dragon than the elf riding it.

For friendly games I might not even use this item just because it seems too powerful, tournament games however its fair game.

As for the executioners ax for 80 points I think it should do D6 wounds but thats just me. Look at the tenderizer, while not quite the same they are very similar and is 30 points cheaper.

Milney · Post by **Milney** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:01 pm

Well, alot has happened since I was last here. Thanks for all the effort in compiling and adding to changes.

I sort of dissapeared just over a week ago didn't I. After frantically keeping threads updated I took a couple days to relapse and when I came back there were just so many posts that I couldn't hope to answer them all.

After that I just got a little side-tracked, had some people IRL claim I was lying about the rumours :shock:

and other hassles.

Anyway - nicely done with the condensing. I'll be visiting my brother who's playing at the Warhammer Doubles tournament this weekend - and hopefully they'll have the book on display again so I can glean some more info :oops:

Lakissov · Post by **Lakissov** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:11 pm

The inverse ward save seems absolutely fantastic. With it, you can have a highborn on cold one with 1+ mundane armor, inverse ward and 65 points of offensive goodies.

the combination of mundane armor and inverse ward means that the armor will block low-strength attacks and the ward hihg-strength atacks. Just imagine, if the attack wounds, then the chance that it will not be saved, depending on S, is the following:
S3: 8.3%
S4: 5.6%
S5: 5.6%
S6: 8.3%
S7: 11.1%
S10: 16.7%
The highborn will be very hard to kill! And now imagine that he might have regeneration as well...

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:23 pm

Entreri Bloodletter wrote:As for the executioners ax for 80 points I think it should do D6 wounds but thats just me. Look at the tenderizer, while not quite the same they are very similar and is 30 points cheaper.

Tenderizer is working off of a base S5 model and still doesn't wound everything on a 2+ like the executioners axe. That's a big difference. There's also the fact that you hit everything with all 4 attacks most of the time, compared to tyrants having relatively lower WS and no hatred (which more than makes up for the extra attacks against most models). But look at it this way. Steam tank? Wound on 2 no armour save D3 wounds = average 6.66667 wounds in 1 turn. Dragons are about average 6 wounds per turn as well, meaning you're facing one less Treeman or Star Dragon after a round of combat. As I said, it's not the best weapon ever, but I could see it being taken on a highborn in a unit of black guard with the ASF banner. Give your unit a 5+ ward save and it makes up for the highborn not having a ward.

edit: And how are people worried about the inverse ward on a dragon lord, which there's still chaos dragons with the golden eye out there (much cheaper than they previously were now that you don't need to have a warrior mage to buy it).

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:37 pm

Tenderizer is a Great Weapon - S7 in the hands of any Ogre character. So it wounds everything on a 2+ but T6 models.

Anyway, the Exec axe in a unit with ASF banner would be nasty but then the one using the axe has very little protection.

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:44 pm

Still a potential 2+ armour, 5+ ward and ASF which isn't bad at all.

But it's an internal balance thing. Ex axe provides you with lots of strength that isn't available elsewhere in the army, while ogres have lots of S6 and easy access to S7 throughout the army. Ex axe adds something that literally isn't available elsewhere (and will actually do more damage on average than a tyrant with a tenderizer when it matters).