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DR with shields? 
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Warrior
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The rumor that said corsairs would have a shield option seems pretty dead now. But when I read throu the latest rumor summary I noticed that its rumored that dark riders will be able to take shields but loose their fast cavalry status.

Everyone seems to agree on dark riders current usefullnes in baiting, flanking and harassment, making the most out of their fast cavalry status.

So what happens if they get the shield option? Will people keep using them as before? Or will we see some sort of semi-heavy cavalry dark riders? What would be the point of taking the shield, how far does that +1 AS take you?

Im currently converting 10 DR from gladeriders, I have so far no intention on putting shields on them, any reason I should change my mind?


Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:57 pm
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Giving them shields allows them to obtain rank bonus. Something that might be usefull with a point cost of 18 pr. model. 15 DR with full command and a master with some goodies could be very usefull. I'm thinking the 25 point talisman that makes the unit ItP. Makes for a okay salamander hunting unit.

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:06 pm
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Yeah something along those lines, I know of many goblin players that do the same thing. Now ours aren't as cheap, but they are waaay better in combat and with a master leading could be a dangerous foe, now I'm probably not going to do this as I don't have that many DR but it could be fun with a lot of monsters and maybe a dragon as well.


Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:33 pm
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Haplo wrote:
Giving them shields allows them to obtain rank bonus. Something that might be usefull with a point cost of 18 pr. model. 15 DR with full command and a master with some goodies could be very usefull. I'm thinking the 25 point talisman that makes the unit ItP. Makes for a okay salamander hunting unit.


I had a running discussion with some guys somewhere in the middle of a big thread when this rumor first showed up. The shield option is a big plus.

The DRs with shields can yield a light cav unit with cheap rank bonus to support you dragon/manticore mounted characters. Another use that works is with a BSB and dread banner leading about 10-12 of these DRs with shield. Combine that unit with a hydra or shade charge or a regular unit of DRs and you can autobreak lots of enemy units.

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:54 pm
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but you are paying 18 freakin' points for a m9 elf, with 4+ AS. Thats 90 pts a rank. Hopefully you don't consider that cheap.

You could either have a unit of 15ish or 2 units of spearelves of 20 with shields. The spearelves are just so much more flexible, on top they grant more static CR.

DRs will be shot quite easily, so I don't see the rank purpose.

That said, the option of shields is nice, and can help a bit with the Flanking DR's to stay in combats. Not sure I'd go for it though, as the flexibility of light cav is great.

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:21 pm
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Should DR units be able to take shields, it opens up the tactical dimensions for the unit something fierce. Rank bonus plus BSB with funky banners with the exceptional movement rate makes them exceptionally dangerous. Its not cheap, but I think it would be worth a try once in a while, for sure. It also ensures a fairly distinct difference between those who will use the unit for harassment (where you need the fast cav status and RXBs) and for more offensive uses where you don't much need the RXbs and would rather have the shields.

Personally, I don't think its a big thing and I don't plan on using shields if the rumour is true. Just doesn't seem to be much point given my tactical leanings. I don't like having to give up most of the unit bonuses just for the extra point of save.

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:25 pm
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Its not 90 points a rank...its 90 points for unit strength 10. Its 70 points for the same unit strength in warriors with shields and those guys, while useful, will be on the other side of the battlefield while the DRs are combo charging with my dragon rider, hydra, etc...

For 180 points you have a M9 S4 on the charge US20 light cav unit. If you stick the BSB with dread banner or even just a hitty noble in there you have the ability to deliver the pain at some range. I've done it and seen it done effecdtively in 6th edition when you got no rank bonus for DRs.

You cannot just blast into fully ranked up dwarves in the front but you can take just about anything that is not immune to fear with a flank charge. This only gets better with hatred and AS4 and a rank bonus.

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:41 pm
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90 points for a rank? So what if we were always on the theory side we would never make a step forward- and we wouldn't be probably using dice for our games. The thing I've experienced most was, that the worse the unit was expected to be in field, the more it was worth in the end because of incredible luck in dice.
On top of that the unit is great even so. On one hand you have a avesome mobile unit of mounted killers that can move mountains (of souls to hell :P) if backuped by a noble on steed. On the other one you have a good AS a high ld so you can fall back if needed or just hold your ground.
What some people said that for the same points you can get 2x20 elces with spear and a shield. Well if you like them do it. It is your choice and the way you play. I try the new stuff and I don't care for results because I like it more to loose than to win the usual way, the no brainer way if you want it like that.

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:46 pm
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Mordru: but why? I could (for 10 points less) gain the same advantages as well as being fast cav. For efficiency I'd go for 2 units (they are fast cav so are mobile enough to archieve same results, but better in most cases (except for rank bonus, which was why i was focusing on that issue). Besides, US gives +1 to CR at most, which is easier to archieve with 2 units of 20 warriors than with 1 unit of 15 DR, even taken speed into account. The extra deployment also allows you to be where needed, and possibly 2 places at once, advantages that the DR unit lacks (but then gains in speed, not a good trade imho).

All the advantages that you claim are as effective divided on two units without sheild compared to the 1 with. The Dreadbanner/bsb combo is decent, but knowing a BSB is in a very squshy unit, it'd be reduced to pieces very soon.

I also think that you are forgetting that warriors would have more than double the number of wounds.

All in all it's a nice option, although I doubt I'll be using it. I prefer mobility even on my combat focused units.

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Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:36 pm
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The BSB Dread Banner DR unit is effective if combined with other threats in the army. You need a fast, mobile army to make it work. In 6th edition you needed about 3 other small units of DRs for the harrasing, screening, fast cav duties. Two units of CoKs and two CoCs. I used it with BM on Manticore and a HS on DP but this is not necessary.

In 7th edition we have cheap core harpies to screen the BSB DR unit along with the shield option (makes them more survivable as well) and hatred.

Dread Banner BSB gets a lance so he is churning out S6 hatred attacks in a unit that costs 180 + Std and Herald (whatever that costs) with the BSBs cost you are still looking at a unit in the 350 pts range. Expensive but very effective. Much more so that big units of CoKs.

You need the unit strength 22 for the fear autobreak!!!

Rank bonus is calculated at the start of combat while unit strength is calculated at the end of combat. You start combat with 1 rank, 1 std, 1 BSB, flank bonus. You gross score +4 not counting outnumber and you eliminate the enemies rank bonus. Get even a meager few kills and you will be autobreaking units that start out at US 25 or less with ease.

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Last edited by Mordru on Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:54 pm
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I think I will try out a small unit of DRs with shield, and also use two small units w/o and with RXBs. They will fulfill slightly different roles, obviously, and I'm thinking of letting the "shielded" go after missile troops and the like as they will have, slightly, higher survivability, and still be cheaper than the ones with RXBs. I think the will complement each other, and also complement the two units of harpies that wil be included i most of my armies.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:14 am
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I think you will also find that a unit of 6 w/ standard and shield with a hitty noble will be able to sweep the flanks of most of the enemy flankers you are likely to face. You may want to watch out for those flesh hounds though.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:58 am
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Vorchild wrote:
Personally, I don't think its a big thing and I don't plan on using shields if the rumour is true. Just doesn't seem to be much point given my tactical leanings. I don't like having to give up most of the unit bonuses just for the extra point of save.


QFT. In order to make the unit effective you have to buy at least one more rank (to make use of the fact that you get rank bonus). And that is too expensive, both points wise and considering I own 10 models and would have to buy a lot more to use them in that way.
Getting a 4+ save does not make them better at all - they still can't survive and shooting at at them (just like when they had a 5+ save) so that you need to be extremely careful where you go. And on the charge their hatred and their spears should be good enough to take everything down which lies inside the boundaries of what fast cavalry can be expected to do which means that getting shields for them will not reliably stretch the boundaries of what they would be capable of - the only thing which would stretch those boundaries is getting rank bonus and as I said before that is too expensive for me.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:32 am
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I think it shows incredible lack of forsight to just completely disregard the option. +1AS can be useful in a myriad of situations.

Ill likely be looking into a unit of DRs with shields led by a BSB with the dread banner - its very quick and can obliterate most fully ranked units quite easily. US20+ fear with an 18" is not bad at all - sure, the unit must be utilised carefully to avoid shooting/magic damage, but isnt that the same with all DElf units?

Will such units become common? No. Are they going to offer revolutionary tactical options? No. Despite this, dismissing them for monetary reasons is especially silly - while that may mean that you might not take them, some of us already own 30 DRs.

The option of shields is a nice addition, giving another one of our core units multipurpose use.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:03 am
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jamesfazzolari wrote:
I think it shows incredible lack of forsight to just completely disregard the option. +1AS can be useful in a myriad of situations.


In what kind of situation would the increased AS be useful enough to disregard the amount of damage armor piercing RxB can do???
I never said that the option was completely useless, all I said is that I don't see the point in using them because there is too little gain for too much loss (i.e. losing fast cavalry and only getting the save improved by 1/6)

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Ill likely be looking into a unit of DRs with shields led by a BSB with the dread banner - its very quick and can obliterate most fully ranked units quite easily. US20+ fear with an 18" is not bad at all - sure, the unit must be utilised carefully to avoid shooting/magic damage, but isnt that the same with all DElf units?


The trouble is - CoK (even though they are a special slot) are a far better choice - they are stronger (S6 instead of S4 on the charge), they have a better save and their mounts can do some damage as well. And they already cause fear. And a unit of DR can do far more damage with their RxB throughout the game. Also giving up your BSB for having a unit with T3 and a 4+ save which causes fear is not the greatest use for a BSB, especially considering that the unit is so fast that the greatest aspect of a BSB (which is the re-roll of breaking testes) is only ever used very rarely.
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Will such units become common? No. Are they going to offer revolutionary tactical options? No. Despite this, dismissing them for monetary reasons is especially silly - while that may mean that you might not take them, some of us already own 30 DRs.


Dismissing this option for monetary reasons is not at all silly. It is the main reason why I dismiss it. Do you want to give me 10 Dark Riders for free? Then I'll most likely try it just to see what happens ;)
But even then, I'd be more tempted to pump another 20 AP shots into my opponents :P

And the reason why they are not going become common sight is exactly the reason why I refuse to consider them as an option - too much loss for too little gain.

Quote:
The option of shields is a nice addition, giving another one of our core units multipurpose use.


It just does not increase the area in which DR can be used enough for me... It certainly is not a bad option because we are not forced to make use of it, but I can't see this additional option as a great improvement or something like that.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:48 am
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Sorry double post.

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Last edited by Mordru on Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:07 am
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If you don't agree that the shield option is a nice bit for DRs that is your perogative but the folks who keep saying some form of it makes no sense and its not useful are just not willing to open up to the realities of this new situation.

DRs w/ shields still move 18" on the march/charge, they cost only 18 pts. If you cannot see the utility of being able to field light cavlary that can form up and do damage the rest of us will not be able to make you see.

I guess people never saw an exalted champion leading a large pack of warhounds in HoC armies either.

Unless your regular opponent plays DE too and is reading these threads. The first time you break off a flank charge with your US20+ dark rider block he is going to have to change his pants.

I have said this a thousand times on this board since 2002 and on other boards as well, WFB is all about applying the maximum amount of force to the most vulnerable area. We need to get their first with the most. Thats how these games are won and if you don't understand that you are missing out.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:08 am
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Then you hit a block of 20 skeletons with the 'double US' banner and cry, a lot. :D

Anyway, I find DR with shields a very bad idea, its a huge block that takes a lot of space, hard to manoeuvre even with its M9, so large its easily flankable/outmanoeuvred.

To me, its a waste to consider such cavalry in a Dark elf army.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:16 am
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Quote:
If you don't agree that the shield option is a nice bit for DRs that is your perogative but the folks who keep saying some form of it makes no sense and its not useful are just not willing to open up to the realities of this new situation.


Maybe you aren't open for the point I'm making...
All I'm saying is that the new option does not sweep me off my chair and that it does not have enough use for me to consider taking it. I acknowledge that there is a slight use for the option, just not enough to make me consider taking it.


Quote:
DRs w/ shields still move 18" on the march/charge, they cost only 18 pts. If you cannot see the utility of being able to field light cavlary that can form up and do damage the rest of us will not be able to make you see.


Well indeed you can't make me see the use of that because as soon as the DR take shields they no longer count as fast cavalry, and that is my main concern. If you could just add shields for 2 points and keep fast cavalry I wouldn't be arguing about this - I'd just go off and stick shields to all my models.


Quote:
I guess people never saw an exalted champion leading a large pack of warhounds in HoC armies either.


I have, and war hounds are fast cavalry which packs some serious hitting power and because if a character joins that unit, this character becomes fast cavalry too, which is why this unit is so dangerous. Dark Riders with shields on the other hand are no longer fast cavalry. And they are far more expensive. The difference is that warhounds are nice and cheap, which means you can take lots of them and their fast cavalry rule allows them to reform, whereas the huge blocks of DR you have to take in order to make use of the fact that they now get ranks means that you need the fast cav rule to manoeuvre them around. But you don't have it...

HUZZAH!

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:27 am
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Well a DR block would provide better Sorc protection, and if you take shadow/death you could give them fear that way. DRs with shields are a consideration now that harpies are core, but I like the fast cav abilities. It might be better to give flanking DRs shields in some cases, such as against High elves.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:43 am
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War hounds are NOT fast cavalry. It infact clearly states so in the HoC book.

I cannot understand the reasoning that taking shields means you miss out on RxBs...you do still have to pay for RxBs, so reasoning that taking shields (which are cheaper) somehow limits damage confuses me at best :P

Just on the use of +1AS, if it saved a wound in CC thats a +1CR swing which can be critical for getting the autobreak with the dreadbanner, etc etc. Im sure you get the idea.

CoK are different horses for different courses I would argue (although agreed, it is a matter of opinion). Do you really want to spend those extra points on a heavier unit you may not get full value from? Generally, I try to spend as little as possible to get the result I am after...with a starting CR of rank+standard+bstandard+outnumber = 4 followed by lots of hatred attacks, the DR unit has a big advantage over a similarly costed CoK unit in terms of static CR - the CoK generate 6 S6 attacks from riders, while the DR have 5 S4 + 3 S6, so the net result is not temendously different against the range of likely opponents - at least those who do not have a 3+ save or better, against which I would never send the DR.

Then there are the considerations of 18" move vs 14" move, and no stupidity. The crucial special slot must also weigh in ones mind.

Having said all this, I have been swayed somewhat, it is probably better to keep them as fast cavalry so that they can very, very rapidly reposition to take out enemy units.

On the BSB issue, while the unit itself may not get anything from the re-roll benefit, the +1CR for the same cost of the warbanner is the real bonus, as well as re-rolls to OTHER units in the battle line.

Interesting, interesting, I shall have to ponder all of this further :P

ps. Im thinking something like:

Highborn on Manti
BSB with darksteed and dreadbanner
Sorceress with double scroll

10 DRs: FC, RxB
5 DR: RxB, Mus
5 DR: RxB, Mus
5 Harpies
5 harpies

10 CoK: FC, War Banner (though perhaps the AP banner would be better, ill have to think it through)
5 Shades: GW
5 Shades: GW
5 Shades: GW

2 RBT
Hydra

So lots of fear causers / terror, and lots of very nasty combo charge options. This should better highlight where I am coming from wen I talk about the unit.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:55 am
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Mr. Anderson wrote:
I have, and war hounds are fast cavalry which packs some serious hitting power and because if a character joins that unit, this character becomes fast cavalry too, which is why this unit is so dangerous. Dark Riders with shields on the other hand are no longer fast cavalry. And they are far more expensive. The difference is that warhounds are nice and cheap, which means you can take lots of them and their fast cavalry rule allows them to reform, whereas the huge blocks of DR you have to take in order to make use of the fact that they now get ranks means that you need the fast cav rule to manoeuvre them around. But you don't have it...

HUZZAH!


You're confusing flesh hounds and warhounds. Warhounds are T3 no save, non-fast cav. At 6 pts per model, some people led the unit with exalted champs to make a fast, cheap, moderately hitty unit with good static CR. Though the fact that DR are 3 times as expensive makes the comparison a little silly.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:58 am
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I actully used to run a hound + chariot + flier army in 6th ed using my chaos list.

15 warhounds for 2 ranks and outnumber (3) vs 3 ranks and standrd (4) gives a very cheap CR swing for only 90 points, that can easily be combined with a chariot or character for easy winning combinaitons. Its very nice indeed, and still prtty darn good in the new WD list.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:03 am
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Quote:
You're confusing flesh hounds and warhounds. Warhounds are T3 no save, non-fast cav. At 6 pts per model, some people led the unit with exalted champs to make a fast, cheap, moderately hitty unit with good static CR. Though the fact that DR are 3 times as expensive makes the comparison a little silly.


:oops: oops... sorry about that one...


Quote:
I cannot understand the reasoning that taking shields means you miss out on RxBs...you do still have to pay for RxBs, so reasoning that taking shields (which are cheaper) somehow limits damage confuses me at best


The damage they can do is limited due to the fact that they lose the fast cavalry rule which allows them to use their RxB even after marching and firing their RxB at anything around them instead of just to the front. Thats why their damage output is extremely limited by putting shields on them.

About the CoK-issue - the better save and the fact that they can take care of any unit, whether it be light/heavy infantry of heavy cavalry makes me prefer them over the dark riders because S4 does not reliably get around armor saves, and so they will just glance off infantry blocks usually because they do not have enough hitting power.


Quote:
On the BSB issue, while the unit itself may not get anything from the re-roll benefit, the +1CR for the same cost of the warbanner is the real bonus, as well as re-rolls to OTHER units in the battle line.


That wasn't my point ;)

My point was that the speed of this unit means that most infantry units (which are the type of unit that has most benefit from a BSB) will be out of the crucial 12" range a BSB has. And cavalry units usually do not need the re-roll because they aim for breaking on the charge rather than lasting in combat.

I'm not saying don't use DR with shields, I'm just saying why I am not to keen on using them.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:09 am
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Mordrin wrote:

Im currently converting 10 DR from gladeriders, I have so far no intention on putting shields on them, any reason I should change my mind?


An 18" charge range with a 4+ as and champion pumping out a pair of attacks is a decently useful unit. Combined with a large monster means we don't have to flank with the beast as we can use the high movement of the cav to hit in the flank.

I wouldn't bother to go for ranks with them, but I might consider a standard for this unit (perhaps even full command).

The benefits of them as I see it are principally;

a) core

b) non stupid

So they become useful support for combined charges (unlike cold ones who can never be relied upon to charge in support, sometimes stranding another unit in an unfavourable combat).

So, effectively, I will be seperating out the roles of the dark riders. For missile harrassment and baiting/sacrificing, I will be using fast cav, probably with only a musician. For flanking combat roles and for rushing war machines/mages, I will be using shield riders since these units will not be planning on fleeing or relying on the free reform. I will convert 5 rank and file and full command even though I will rarely use that many. Probably 6-7 will be enough.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:54 am
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