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DR with shields? 
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The Scourge of Khaine
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sulla wrote:
An 18" charge range with a 4+ as and champion pumping out a pair of attacks is a decently useful unit. Combined with a large monster means we don't have to flank with the beast as we can use the high movement of the cav to hit in the flank.

I wouldn't bother to go for ranks with them, but I might consider a standard for this unit (perhaps even full command).

The benefits of them as I see it are principally;

a) core

b) non stupid



Stick a noble in there and you've got a pretty solid, fast and hard hitting unit

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:09 am
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I'd rather put the noble in a 5+ save unit though, for the increased mobility.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:26 am
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The Scourge of Khaine
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Sure, I'd also do that, just playing around with the possibilities the new book provides...

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:36 am
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I haven't tried the shield option out yet, but considering the success I had with the original Blade list, I think it will give the option to make that kind of list even harder.

The Dread Banner BSB sitting in this unit is a great idea and not one I need any convincing of.

The hardest part will be remembering that with shields they have lost that flexibility of movement, so will need more consideration for their deployment and how you are going to get them into the position you need to make them effective.

With 18" to play with it shouldn't be too difficult and once they get going I think they will be effective.

The actual biggest drawback as far as I can see, is that if you take 10, it is eay to lose that rank bonus, at which point the remaining 4 are an expense being carried around. That can be offset by their numbers adding weight to the overall unit strength for combat res purposes though.

Be wary of that is all I'm saying. My key tactic against Bretts is making sure I pop a figure off each lance asap to eliminate their rank bonus aead of any likely charge. So I know it's a killer.

If you take shields and go for a big unit I personally think rxbs are a mistake due to the reduced movement flexibility. They are there for combat and need to get into position quickly to line up their charge - they simply don't have the time for shooting.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:38 am
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Personally I like the idea of having some kind of medium cavalry again, I see them more or less as the return of the Doomsteed-Cavalry from the 3rd edition. As such they fulfill about the same role as the Asur Silver Helms in 6th – they are not as hard hitting as real heavy cavalry, but are faster and more reliable (not stupid). With a better AS and a M of 9, they are great as flank support units, especially to threaten missile troops. If you march them forward together with a unit or two of RXB-armed, „standard“ DR’s and perhaps a few harpies, you can make the opponent quite nervous right in the first turn, as the „Doomsteeds“ can easily be used for a frontal charge if supported by one of the other units in the flank.

If you use different models for the shield-armed DR’s other than just sticking a shield to the standard ones, you might also benefit from the psychological factor, as they might be recognized as a completely different (and probably more dangerous) unit than they really are. So it might be that the opponent uses much more effort than usual to counter them and thus keeps his attention away from your other units.

I will use a unit of Melnibonean Cavalry I have still lying around to represent them, but the old Marauder Cavalry models (they are often available on Ebay for a reasonable price) will do good as well.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:00 am
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The Scourge of Khaine
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Dark Alliance wrote:
The actual biggest drawback as far as I can see, is that if you take 10, it is eay to lose that rank bonus, at which point the remaining 4 are an expense being carried around. That can be offset by their numbers adding weight to the overall unit strength for combat res purposes though.


I wouldn't go for ten, because as you said its too easy to negate the rank bonus. I'd rather add a BSB with SoM, and ES (providing the BSBs will be able to take a shield in the new book) or the 1+ Armour. For +25 pts you basically have the same effect as adding 5 x DRs...

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:48 am
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I'm thinking 3 units of 10 all led by characters could be a fun army to play around with when you're with your mates. Add in 3 units of Harpies, 4 units of Shades and a Hydra!


Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:51 am
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Th more I think about it, the better it seems to leave them as fast cavalry for the movement bonuses as well as making a casualty or two less important.

Getting an assisting flank charge with shades or other dark riders in support, or combining with something nasty should not be overy difficult for DElves.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:56 am
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Of course their comparable with CoK, medium cav, yep, no stupidity and faster, yep, but it's still fearcausing cav.

For the pointscost it averages 27 points per model for both units assuming no command. 27*15 = 405 for CoK, 15 DR w shields + master bsb, dreadbanner: 18*15+70+25+40=405 for the DRs. that said, I'm not even counting the masters steed, nor mundane protection. At 11 models the cok's will be cheaper per model.

And don't forget to remember the hero choice that is used by DR when claiming the special choice is the problem.

With the warhound example I think someone is forgetting the 3 ranks+ outnumber bonus for 6pts a model. This cannot be compared to an 18 pts a model unit to do the same task. it's freakin 3 hounds per DR.

I still see very limited reasons to use shields as you may as well forgo the +1 for ranks to gain lot of mobility (still keeping the dreadbanner).

Quote:
The option of shields is a nice addition, giving another one of our core units multipurpose use.

I respectfully disagree james. it takes away the multi purpose unit. Without shields DR's can hit in CC especially with hatred, they can bait, redirect, and shoot. and they can do all well.

With shields they are better in CC but only marginally, as they are less likely to get the flank charges due to the lessend mobility. they can bait although they are worse as they lose the fast cav rules, are a bit worse at redirecting as they cost more, and worse at shooting as they cant shoot 360 degrees, and cant march/rally and shoot.

With the bigger unit they gain more hitpower, but sacrifice a lot of shooting (second rank can't or lose mobility because they want to add a rank before they charge), and they can bait but with a 400 pts unit I'd be very careful. redirecting is almost certainly a nogo (200 pts on top for 2 banners)

Cheers from Xerasi who knows when you calculate ranks, Mordru, but can't see why it matters when the rank is gone before CC starts (as DA also suggests), and as you already get +4 from a flank charge (negating 3 ranks is the same as -3 to the enemy, whilst getting +1 for flank)

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:59 am
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Xerasi wrote:
With the bigger unit they gain more hitpower, but sacrifice a lot of shooting (second rank can't or lose mobility because they want to add a rank before they charge), and they can bait but with a 400 pts unit I'd be very careful. redirecting is almost certainly a nogo (200 pts on top for 2 banners)


Why get xbows for them anyways? just makes them more expensive and it won't help in their designed role. (would you buy xbows for ranked CoKs???)
For the redirect, bait , etc. one still fields "normal" units of DR with xbows and maybe a Musician....

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:10 am
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Lol Lamekh, I'm saying it's all a really bad idea, and points can be used better. I'm just pointing out arguments from the pro side that have been made, showing why I disagree.

And I'm in no way trying to suggest that you can only take the single DR unit, but the consensus seems to be that they are as good as normal DRs + some options, whilst I'm trying to argue that they are as normal DRs - some options

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:38 am
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Despite the fact the shields make them non fact cav, they still have a 3+ save in combat.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:55 am
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Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:
Despite the fact the shields make them non fact cav, they still have a 3+ save in combat.


La + mtd + shields = 4+

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:00 am
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Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:
Despite the fact the shields make them non fact cav, they still have a 3+ save in combat.


What are you talking about? o_O Lamekh pointed it out but if you think they can get 3+ with hand weapon + Shield, they can't because that rule is only for infantry.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:37 am
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Dark Alliance wrote:
I haven't tried the shield option out yet, but considering the success I had with the original Blade list, I think it will give the option to make that kind of list even harder.

The Dread Banner BSB sitting in this unit is a great idea and not one I need any convincing of.


At least some people understand the point I have been trying to make.

I wonder how so many people miss so many basic issues with the rules. We all misremember one now and then but HW+SH for mounted troops that never been a rule. Warhaounds as fast cav once again never been a rule. We need to read carefully when discussing things on these boards and it is a good thing so many folks are aound to point out when we muck up a rule.

DRs + Shields is a good option when used as light cavalry not when trying to perform fast cav roles. The only thing better would be lances as an option.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:44 pm
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What's left for a light cavalry unit when you don't use if for fast cav roles? Nothing! Dark riders with shield can get ranks, for 90 points per rank... Dark riders as fast cav are better for pretty much anything else. I've seen people here say shielded DRs can be used for war machine hunting, but unshielded dark riders are much more likely to reach the warmachine. I've seen people say they'd use them as flankers, but unshielded dark riders get to flanks (and rears) easier. It is not that fast cavalry can't be used for CC purposes or anyhting.

I don't think the extra armour save is worth the loss of speed


Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:07 pm
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Mordru: just because we believe that there are more useful things to use in the new list doesn't mean that we don't understand the point you are trying to make. Please be reasonable, it preformed fine in DAs old blade list (I actually don't remember if it was in many blade lists, or just a few). But back then they where fast cav. They will obviously be better than back then (in pure fast cav form) as they will be cheaper, a champ will have 2A, the noble/master bsb can be kitted, and hatred. That said you should really learn that when people are disagreeing with you doesn't mean they don't understand your point. We are all, or some of us at least, very clear on the point that you are trying to make, but if there isn't a significant part of reason behind it (you continuously claim that we do not understand when we are suggesting it will be less effective than you think) we have absolutely no reason to accept the point.

DA is a great player, but for the mere mortals as the rest of us, I believe that we (and possible even he) will prefer the mobility and reformability that the No shield DR unit with the dreadbanner presents than the bit better AS.

And even he points out the weakness to shooting.

Another weakness is that if the BSB is in such a huge unit, or can easily join them, there is a reason that they've been included in the list. Narrowing down options and the opponent will know that more likely than not it's either fearcausing, unbreakable or +1 on first round. In all events it's a unit that any opponent would concentrate on destroying, giving you a hard time with the limited mobility of not being fast cav. They are easily shot down, same goes with magic etc. Lore of metal will be able to snipe the BSB to death etc.

You are simply simplifying the case for them by not including the opponents reactions considering a so expensive and fragile unit. This is what makes me worried that an otherwise valid tactic will be useless. Hence I suggest fast cav for 1 less rank bonus, but mobility to keep them safer until they hit.

I'd possibly be more tempted in using BSB with the AP banner as we have so many units that can benefit from it. Adding him into a unit of DR makes their charge hit really hard. Adding possible cauldron support and you've got a very evil unit. I'd prefer this by far giving me a lot more flexibility.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:26 pm
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I doubt I will use the shield options. I think that the new list has plenty of hard hitters in it already so they aren't necessary to add punch to an army. I also love fast cavalry and would much prefer the speed and mobility that they offer.

Having said that, I like how we now have the option to give them shields, it adds an extra level of flexibility to the army that wasn't there before. Even though I don't think I'll like it I'm more than willing to test it out.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:21 pm
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I absolutely love the option for medium cavalry. I can't stand Cold One Knights because of their lack of reliability, and having a medium cavalry option helps give an alternative cavalry option to those of us who demand reliablity in our troops. It also frees up our very competitive Special slots for other troop types. The M9 also means they can get the jump on enemy heavy cavalry with M8 (Bretonnians in particular), which I find intriguing

I foresee these as a popular option, and I'm surprised at how easily some of you are dismissing this option...

sulla wrote:
The benefits of them as I see it are principally;

a) core

b) non stupid


Exactly. :)

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:42 pm
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I actually expect to see Dark Riders not used more as medium cavalry than as fast cavarly. The reason being that our new core Harpies fulfill the role of baiter both cheaper and better than Dark Riders. I was hesitant to put Dark Riders into much before but now with Hatred (I add in the Standard of Slaughter now and then) and shields they become downright dangerous!


Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:18 pm
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I look forward to adding some shielded Dark Rider units to my Dark Elf collection (either converted from Warriors/Glade Riders, or from the potential new kit that's been rumored). I'll continue to use unshielded RXB/Naked units of five with Musicians for misdirection and harrassment, while employing shielded units of five with Heralds and Musicians as flankers, Light Cav hunters and Mallets (because they're not quite "Hammers").


Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:47 pm
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@ Xerasi

We should not hesitate to to change our opinions when information or persepctive changes. DA is a great player. Good for him that has nothing to do with the fact that DRs shield option opens up lots of new viable tactical options.

Generally,

When others point out the strengths of the options presented by the various DR + shield units now available and people don't seem to react to the points made in their favor I am compelled to believe they must not understand. Especially, after going to some length in this thread, and others, explaining the advantages and options offered this light/med cav build. When people don't seem to react to the information being discussed and they respond in the same terms despite being offered different perspectives on things I am left only with evidence they do not understand.

It is one thing to state, I see your points but XYZ does not appeal to me or XYZ is still not a good idea because it is flawed in this manner. It is quite something else to say the same things over and over. Some people seem to repeat that DRs as fast cav can do everything DRs with shields can do. This statement is so erroneous I am forced to believe they do not understand the new, as in heretofore unavailable, options ranked light cav present.

I, and others, are not trying to insist anyone see things as we do just come to the discussion with some insight that bears on the questions. As I said earlier, on this thread we are busy with theoryhammer. I love theory as much as the next guy.
I ran the large DR unit with BSB/dread banner in 6th with lots of sucess and that combo is only going to get much, much better. Do you have to be a great player to use this tactic, maybe so, but I am not making that claim at all.

Try it you will like it.

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Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:01 pm
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It needs extensive playtesting basically. In 3 months time we can all talk in more detail about the viability of the shield option. I like it for the rank bonus, but with hatred is it really necessary? Who knows?

Doubtless the statisticians amongst you will be able to throw all kinds of figures together arguing each way, but figures can't account for the rest of the army composition so it will be down to game experiences which will determine the outcome.

I will try it at some point for sure.


Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:16 pm
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Lamekh wrote:
Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:
Despite the fact the shields make them non fact cav, they still have a 3+ save in combat.


La + mtd + shields = 4+


What about shield and hand weapon giving a 5+ save? I guess youd have to give up S4 attacks though...

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Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:09 am
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Demetrius the Betrayer wrote:
What about shield and hand weapon giving a 5+ save? I guess youd have to give up S4 attacks though...

That I'm afraid only applies to models on foot (and from the front)

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Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:13 am
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