Presentation of D.R.A.I.C.H. - The Art of War for 7th ed DE

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Post by Mutator »

Mordru wrote:I am not trying to torpedo the thread just question the timing. I like theoryhammer as much as the next guy but as a player through several decades now I am convinced that actual play needs to be involved before definitive "tactica" can coalesce to any useful extent.

Mordru wrote:Instead of waiting until actual insight into tactics from battles on a real table with real minis can be discussed maybe we should just list all the obvious stuff that doesn't require genius? That would be extra useful. :roll:


Starting with theoryhammer and the obvious stuff isnt a bad place. Baby steps, and all that. To allay your fears, one imagines that as the book evolves the theoryhammer will be replaced with actual warhammer. Some of the theoryhammer might even be what spurs the trying and testing. Hence having it all in one place being continually updated is a very good idea.
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Post by Matras »

Agreed. Okay, Proposal: let us start with magic - we know our spells, the newly available spell-lists and everything else we need.
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Post by Scactha »

Druchii.net have some high quality material. But the "obvious" combos aren´t necessarily that obvious to a beginner. We just need a little adminstrative effort to sort it.

Myself I plan to put effort into Shades, an old love of mine. They are turning into a special forces type of unit that can handle both melee and shooting. How well do they work with the CoB, divertering, an assassin, shooting, march blocking, character assassination and ACR? At what range, against what foe, will I do what? How many shall I bring to what role? Ws/Bs 5, GW or 2xhw and rxb with Ap is a multitude of options.

Great times ahead. I am looking forward to the collection :)
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Post by Archon_matt »

Sounds like a great idea, quite frankly...I should be getting the book on release day so I'll study hard, get some theoryhammer together, play some games, and then get back to y'all (gah hate that phrase!). Basically, I'm in if you need me.
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Post by Sulla »

Mordru wrote:
sulla wrote:
Well some theoryhammer doesn't need to wait till the book to be proven on the tabletop. It doesn't take a genius to see that you shouldn't start the magic phase by casting Power of Darkness for all your magic users because an early miscast could kill every single caster in one fell swoop... so sequential casting will become the norm for DE casters... PoD, then all of that lass' spells, then next sorceress' PoD... etc.


Instead of waiting until actual insight into tactics from battles on a real table with real minis can be discussed maybe we should just list all the obvious stuff that doesn't require genius? That would be extra useful. :roll:


... So did you disagree with my point about casting or do you want to wait and see the book before agreeing? :P This is a forum for beginners as well as expert players. Listing seemingly obvious stuff is pretty neccessary for their benefit.
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Post by Mordru »

Sulla,

I don't quibble with your point at all. I would just suggest that broad, sweeping tactics emporiums especially those with (admittedly impressive in this case ;) ) grandiose titles desinged to address the entire scope of the new army be based on tactics that have at least been employed on the table. Tactics people have acutally used in actual battles and on experience rather than speculation, even well informed and otherwise beneficial speculation.

As I said back on the 1st page. I'm not trying to poo poo the idea just the timing. Everybody has an idea or two of what helps and is free to express it. Thats what makes the internet such a great place (that and all the good porn :twisted: ) and I do not want to rain on anyones parade. Obviously, I am in the minority and therefore will cease to throw rocks, even underhand tosses, at the timing of the thread.

As far as obvious things being beneficial to new players goes, my thoughts are that new fantasy players should probably select another army entirely until they learn to play well but thats another thread altogether.
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Post by Krystalice2020 »

HEY HEY HEY... I learned how to play on dark elves... and when i realized they weren't good i went to chaos.. and then lizzies... and then tomb kings... and then back to lizzies... and now I'm right bakck where I started... Not because we're getting redone, but because after playing 4 TOTALLY different armies I really understand what the game is about, and can work with a poor army... luckily i don't have to have an 80 year old army book anymroe, so's all the better...

As for this thread being for beginners I think that we SHOULD wait a little for this type of thread until we really have played about 10-15 games with the army... ALl you can glean from the book IS the obvious.. There are no dirty tricks to be found in the RULES! you have to find them out by ACTUALLY screwing your opponent in the face with them... This thread is not bad. It just needs to be retitled as:

ALL THE STUFF YOU NEED TO KNOW BEFORE TAKING YOUR NEW DRUCHII TO THE TABLE

not:

ALL THE NIFTY LITTLE TRICKS THAT I THINK WILL WORK... MAYBE
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Post by Sulla »

Mordru wrote:As I said back on the 1st page. I'm not trying to poo poo the idea just the timing. Everybody has an idea or two of what helps and is free to express it. Thats what makes the internet such a great place (that and all the good porn :twisted: ) and I do not want to rain on anyones parade. Obviously, I am in the minority and therefore will cease to throw rocks, even underhand tosses, at the timing of the thread.


Fair enough, oh great lord of Chaos. I do sort of agree with you at least in terms of the timing of a thread with a title like that. Perhaps a thread more devoted to theory and first play impressions would have been more suitable.

Mordru wrote:As far as obvious things being beneficial to new players goes, my thoughts are that new fantasy players should probably select another army entirely until they learn to play well but thats another thread altogether.


I disagree here. I jumped in at the deep end, so to speak. I firmly reccomend it. It teaches players to be flexible. Besides, who wants to start an army that they don't particularly like just because it is easier than the one they really want? :D

Now beat it or I'll sic the Legion of super heroes and Dr Fate on you. ;)
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Post by Calisson »

Hi folks.
Thank you all for the very positive answers received so far.

If I could clarify what I have in mind:

- I intend indeed to address the entire scope of the new army - that is why I need your help.

- Before we get actual experience, I will be happy to use theoryhammer (funny name, I like it) - that is why I need your help.

- Theory should provide us with interesting options to test in actual battles.

- I want to benefit from actual experience of battles fought with the new book in hand, as Mordru says, as soon as it is available - that is why I need your help.


Here is how I intend to proceed:

We will start with brainstorming as soon as I post the Table of Content (which will be "living", so it will evolve with your inputs). Anybody can have an idea, it is good to be posted. Breinstorming is just saying that such or such combo could be interesting to investigate, but no analysis at this point. For that purpose, present rumors are enough, IMO. I intend to post the initial LBAW7eD Table of Content within a week or so, it is nearly ready. That shoud trigger more brainstorming, which will modify the Table of Content for a better one.

Second step is to investigate about each idea. Theoryhammering is necessary to sort out the ideas. Having in hand the actual book is necessary for that. Hopefully, when people get the book, they will theorise and play, and the LBAW7eD will become more argumented, let say in August-Septembre.

Then, the ideas that theory found the best are probably good candidates to be tried first. That will be left to the individual initiative. I hope the LBAW7eD will become experience-proved before Xmas.



Sure, like most of the druchii generals, I will start thinking about the best combos at home, with nobody's advice, it is a very interesting part of the game and I love it. But after playing a couple of games, I will be happy that someone brainstormed something that I failed to discover myself, that someone else theroyhammered and estimated worth trying, and that a third party experienced and found good. We are behaving that way all the time in D.net. I just regret that we are not doing it in an organized, systematic way. The LBAW7eD thread is just about organising what we are already doing naturally.

Looking forward to read from all of you.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Let me know if you want to know about my experiences playtesting with the finished list. Previous playtesting with former variations of the list are irrelevant to what you are doing.

I have been fighting Empire, VCs, Lizardmen and Wood Elves.
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Post by Mordru »

sulla wrote: Fair enough, oh great lord of Chaos. I do sort of agree with you at least in terms of the timing of a thread with a title like that. Perhaps a thread more devoted to theory and first play impressions would have been more suitable.

Now beat it or I'll sic the Legion of super heroes and Dr Fate on you. ;)


I had to do some research to get this reference. Mordru is a moniker I have used for a long, long time going back to the halycon days of AD&D. I did not realize it the name of a DC character until you pointed it out. No one else every has so you have proved your nerd powers are very, very strong and I am compelled to pay homage. ;)
However, based upon whats on the net it appears that the DC Mordru rocks and will eventually own the legion and everyone else. :twisted:

@ Calisson

If you can get DA to share his play experiences you will be off to a great start. This type of project will be massive in scope and scale but can develop over time.
Last edited by Mordru on Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Izirath »

Dark Alliance wrote:Let me know if you want to know about my experiences playtesting with the finished list. Previous playtesting with former variations of the list are irrelevant to what you are doing.

I have been fighting Empire, VCs, Lizardmen and Wood Elves.


I think that would be appreciated alot. If you don't intend to post it in this thread then maybe you could PM me about it?
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Post by Dark Alliance »

It may well be a better idea to create a seperate forum for this, allocate a working group with an overall moderator responsible for cleansing the threads, and updating the lead posts.

We'll see how it pans out.
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Post by Calisson »

Dark Alliance wrote:It may well be a better idea to create a seperate forum for this, allocate a working group with an overall moderator responsible for cleansing the threads, and updating the lead posts.

We'll see how it pans out.


I did dare to think about the same idea, but I am not sure how good an idea it could be.

I can imagine that the most difficult part in creating a forum is to find a decent moerator who is willing to dedicate sufficient time!

I acknowledge the work done by present moderators. I dont know how you do this without loosing your job or your family life!

For the work I had in mind, I sure would love that someone moderated it, but I dont take it for granted. So I try to work out something that would spread the task over several dedicated people, rather than assuming all the work alone myself (and fail to do it, most likely) or leave it lightly moderated as usual.

As you will see when I post my Table of Content thread, I see the work split between the tactics forum and the armylist forum.
Initially, I put this thread in general discussion, where it did not belong enough, apparently, so it was moved. No problem.

We'll see.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

Ask for volunteers and we can take it from there. If you look at how we structured the Revision project it might give you some help.
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Post by Calisson »

Dark Alliance wrote:If you look at how we structured the Revision project it might give you some help.


I don't know where to find the Revision project. It was long ago. By the way, the first time I heard about Druchii.net was when I read on GW website the story about the revision.

Never mind, I can start without that experience, I am nearly done with my Table of Content, it will be by itself a list of "to do".
Hopefully, I'll post it this afternoon.
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Post by Aspiring executioner »

Calisson look in the old forums tag underneath the forums tag and then go to playtester's guild ;) Hope that helps.
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Post by Calisson »

Hi mates!

So I did post my Table of Contents.
LBAW7eD contents - http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=55572

So far the most intresting contribution was about the title that shound be given to the whole work.
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=689027#689027

I've seen the Revision old forum, thanks to Aspiring Executioner. !smile!
As you can see in my Table of contents, I have an approach based on grouping similar uses of units (the agile, the hitter, the shooty) rather than the sistematic Core-Special-Rare.
Sure the topics are spread out in several posts in my approach, but on the other hand, I hope it will help to compare similar uses for different units.
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Post by tmr »

this is a wonderful idea... I can't wait until I see some content!!! time to sacrific some slaves to seal the deal...
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Post by Calisson »

The thread was updated with the new name:
D.R.A.I.C.H. instead of LBAW7eD.
Easier mnemotechnics. :lol:
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