Cauldron of Blood... Is it worth the 200 pts?

Krystalice2020 · Post by **Krystalice2020** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:52 pm

I've always been attracted to the Khainite part of our Druchii Host, and as the new book seems to want use to field more bat-shit-crazy bitchelves the cauldron looks like a great addition... however, is it really worth the points you pay?

I've playtested it twice.... I spend a full 245 points on it... and it never got into combat... so at least we can say you don't need to upgrade the Hag with any bonuses save dance of doom if you think you're gonna get shot... *edit* this just occured to me... What if you give the hag the steed of shadows cloak? she could potentially be really good then... right? or will that not work?

I look at it's abilities and see the stubborn bonus. That truly did come in handy, cuz executioners are still not good! they'd have been testing on 6's several times, but thanks to stubborn I got to use their base leadership... also, i was able to do some serious damage once I didn't need to ward save my witches when i used the 2 attack bonus. Witches are always vulnerable, so the 5+ ward is a no brainer... and it helped... kinda...

I look at the cauldron and I see bonuses that will ALWAYS be handy to have around... ALWAYS... however, when I see what I coulda fielded instead (ie. Hydra, 2 Bolt Throwers, 20 RxB men, another assassin, Black Guard, more corsairs, more witches, more harpies, more shades, more warriors, more more more more!!!!) I can't help but think that some of those things are more useful than 4 more witches that won't die, or 2x attacks on executioners or killing blow on corsairs with frenzy (actually that one's pretty amazing). I can't say whether a hydra woulda done more good, but due to the fact that the cauldron doesn't get kills itself, it always leaves me with the sense that it didn't really DO anything.

Is this just a feeling? Or should I really be fielding things that KILL things?

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:18 pm

Steed of Shadows only works on Unit Strength 1 characters, as I recall. I imagine that means it can't work with the Cauldron.

I'll have to see the final rule wording and point cost, and issues like mobility/survivability/other character demands will influence whether I take one or not. I really like the versatility and flexibility of units like the Cauldron, but 100-200 points goes a LONG way in the Druchii army and there may simply be better choices.

Kuren rath · Post by **Kuren rath** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:23 pm

I think whether or not to use the cauldron depends on the kind of list you're playing. That being said in a khainite list, or a list with multiple khainite units, i would say it's definately worth the investment, but other than that it's a toss up. Personally i don't plan to field one in 7th edition because i perfer our other rare choices especially the Hydra. As for the feeling that you're wasting points on it my only advice is play some games with it and some without it to get a feel for exactly how big of an impact it's making on the battle and see if the feeling persists.

Lord tareq · Post by **Lord tareq** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:34 pm

I think its a fairly good choice. Just the ability to make all khainite units nearby stubborn is not to be underestimated. A unit Witch Elves, a unit executioners, and a unit Black Guard and you have 3 stubborn units in your army, very nifty against armies that depend on the charge to win combats.
The ability to boost 1 unit with +1 attack on a key moment is very nice as well.

That said, I'd prefer my 175p. 7 S5 attacks, regenerating Warhydra "Snuggles" any day.

Grandmaster ej · Post by **Grandmaster ej** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:19 pm

i havent play-tested the couldron yet, but iven though it is now actually useful i cant say that id ever take it in a game under 3000 points. however a Hag BSB on a couldron in the middle of a stubborn khainite army is a nice thought

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:25 pm

@ Kuren Rath

The Cauldron is not a rare choice in the new book. It is an upgrade for a Hag hero.

Generally,

The CoB appears to be useful only if you tailor your list to its abilities. The actual cost for the CoB in my estimation is never less than 290 pts. At least 90 for a naked Hag and 200 for the cauldron. I do not see myself fielding it very much as except for a themed army I do not like the Hag character. I think the assassin possesses too many advantages over the Gag not the least of which is that it doesn't require a character slot.

Also, if you have the special slot (always an issue with all the good special choices now) a unit of witches with champ, etc... will be much more economical that the CoB.

Almundis · Post by **Almundis** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:46 pm

would it be possible to make the hag with CoB a BSB as well? Because it could provide a really potent area for your RxB gunlines and support troops. Just a thought...

Eqaddictedfool · Post by **Eqaddictedfool** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:03 pm

While I havnt seen all the rules yet. I will be fielding a khaine army with hellebron and taking alot of witches and assassins and maybe some executioners if I'm feeling saucy. doubt i would field it though in a classic ruchii army.

Irtehdar · Post by **Irtehdar** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:07 pm

Kuren Rath wrote:Personally i don't plan to field one in 7th edition because i perfer our other rare choices especially the Hydra.

Its not a rare choice. Its a mount.

Mordru wrote:The actual cost for the CoB in my estimation is never less than 290 pts. At least 90 for a naked Hag and 200 for the cauldron.

The cost is 200. 90 for the Hag and 110 for the CoB

Kuren rath · Post by **Kuren rath** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:25 pm

Really i thought it took up a rare choice too like the tomb kings' lich priest and casket. If it doesn't then i would say it is almost definately worth taking if you have the points. Now i need to reconsider what i'm going to have in my new list.

Silverheimdall · Post by **Silverheimdall** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:32 pm

I've read the cauldron, it says it does not work on Harpies, Mounts or Creatures that pull the Chariots - thus it can work on the War Hydra and Impact Hits (Just like the Black Coach) and even give the RBT a 5+ ward if its gonna be shot by a cannon haha.

Gastronauticon · Post by **Gastronauticon** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:36 pm

The CoB appears to be useful only if you tailor your list to its abilities. The actual cost for the CoB in my estimation is never less than 290 pts. At least 90 for a naked Hag and 200 for the cauldron.

Nah, its 110pts. With the 90pt Hag makes it 200 all in all.

Masterofdarkness · Post by **Masterofdarkness** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:13 am

Yep so make it a BSB and it is 225 min, i think the hag can get 50 points of khainite but it might be 25. Also don't forget that the cauldron is unbreakable and even though frenzied cant charge so no worries there. If charged I would take the hand of khaine against things short of a bloodthirster or similar monsters in a challange will really improve her survivability. Also characters can join the unit if you are really worried about her dying. However if you maneuver right nothing other then things that will die horribly against her should be able to make it in.

Mordru · Post by **Mordru** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:18 am

I have heard so much different stuff over the last week - ten days I must have mangled it all together. 200 for Cauldron and Hag exclusive of gifts for the Hag. That helps on the cost issue.

Is it still unbreakable? I heard different things about that as well. I'll have the book when my spearhead arrives.

Khalius · Post by **Khalius** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:26 am

Also don't forget that the cauldron is unbreakable and even though frenzied cant charge so no worries there.

Sorry chief, I read from the Milney page that is isn't unbreakable any more, if it loses a combat the crew will flee like a regular warmachine. It does cause terror though, which should help to stop it getting charged (a bit).

... so at least we can say you don't need to upgrade the Hag with any bonuses save dance of doom if you think you're gonna get shot...

The cauldron witches now come with a 4+ Ward save (against everything), so buying dance of doom is just wasting points. Also remember that hits will first get randomised into the cauldron too, so thats effectively two stacked ward saves. She should be pretty resistant to shooting.

Masterofdarkness · Post by **Masterofdarkness** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:46 am

Really? damn it. Well then I guess I will have to be more careful with it.

Vonkrieglitz · Post by **Vonkrieglitz** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:51 am

The loss of unbreakable makes it pretty vulnerable, but it is Stubborn now at Ld9 (as the crew are Khainite, within 12", and the Hag has Ld9)

Masterofdarkness · Post by **Masterofdarkness** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 2:50 am

yep make it a BSB and that is rerolled, I know I will

Mr. anderson · Post by **Mr. anderson** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:30 am

2 attack bonus

:shock: that would be awesome... emphasis on would be... because the bonus is only +1 attack, or did I miss something here?

I'd never make the hag on the cauldron BSB because then you'd be wasting her ability to get the ASF banner into executioners or witchies. I'd much rather just make sure that the BSB is within 12" of the cauldron. And since you want the vital parts of your army to be close to the cauldron anyway, that should not cripple your battle plan.

HUZZAH!

Monkeylord · Post by **Monkeylord** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:03 am

I think the best way to think of the CoB is as a unit standard that can float around from unit to unit, can change what it does, and can stack with the abilities of other unit standards. +1 attack, Killing Blow, and 5+ ward save are all excellent qualities to bestow on any unit. Not to mention making Khainite units stubborn.

I will certainly being trying out a Couldron list to see how it fairs.

Khalius · Post by **Khalius** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:24 am

I was building up a list for my first 7th ed battle, and at the top of my page, I wrote "Death Hag, CoB - 200pts",

However, It was scheduled to be a 1750pt game, and there were so many "Essential" units that it ended up getting squeezed out of the list. This was very painful, but I think it was necessary.

I think that if the game is <2k points, It is very difficult to justify the large percentage of your points being tied up, and it just becomes very difficult to afford. >2.5k points and it is almost a requirement for the army. 2-2.5k is the grey area, where it will be down to personal preference.

Decker_cky · Post by **Decker_cky** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:51 pm

I don't think it's ever a requirement. It's brilliant, but generally, you'll give some extra goodies bringing it to 225 or 250 pts, and you could do a lot with those points. I'll probably take an extra hydra more often than I take a CoB, or a nice big unit of cold one knights, etc..

There's lots of meat in the DE list, you'll be able to make several very different builds work from the look of things.

Krystalice2020 · Post by **Krystalice2020** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:01 pm

@ Khalius

I agree that below 2000 points the Cauldron is too much for no CLEAR gauge of effect, but in large games (unless you don't use execs or witches at ALL) it's necessary... if not for just putting that extra attack on some cold ones or the save on your corsairs for extra help...

Sloth2983 · Post by **Sloth2983** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:44 am

the CoB i feel is worth it when you are playing a large point game. I will be playing mainly non khainite units and the CoB still looks worth it to me.

Izirath · Post by **Izirath** » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:48 am

The more I think about it the CoB doesn't seem worth it as I don't use so many Khainite units. I have a unit of WE which I rarely use so I don't think I'll use the cauldron so much. Maybe (as people say) in larger games. Otherwise I think the Hag will probably just take up that precious slot.