Lokir Fellheart

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Kinslayer
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Post by Kinslayer »

yeah i see your point and i was thinking this too, but is it actually written in the rules that he does not get the bonus in a challenge?
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Post by Thewackywombat »

I've only seen the store copy so far, but as far as I could tell the rules didnt specify one way or another.

The way I see it though, when he accepts a challenge, neither Lokir nor his opponent would count as being in their respective squads, so Lokir must attack at his base A rating.
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The black scorpion
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Post by The black scorpion »

Rules for challenges say that the model issuing the challenge is moved in the ranks of his own unit so that he is in base-to-base contact with the model accepting the challenge. Models from either unit cannot attack any of the characters involved in the challenge, nor can models in the challenge attack models in the unit.

Lokhir's rules are pretty vague in this context, but as neither character is actually removed from their respective units, I'd suggest that Lokhir's opponent still counts as being part of the unit and so Lokhir gets the extra attacks. That's my interpretation of RAW anyway.

Still, it's a massive grey area. In the spirit of fairness, I'd personally be tempted to ignore the extra attacks component of the Red Blades when fighting a challenge. Or if you're unsure, draw your opponent's attention to it at the beginning of the game (i.e. before it becomes an issue!) and decide between you which interpretation to go with. As long as both players agree, and you play consistently it doesn't matter.
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Post by Thekodamas »

I have to say t is simple and maybe I'm blind to the gray-ness. You get extra attacks based on the ranks of the unit he is attacking. You are attacking the unit but just so happen to be in a challenge with a character or champion from that unit.

The unit doesn't loose ranks for having a challenge even if it is a lone character so I believe you should get the attacks.
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The black scorpion
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Post by The black scorpion »

Still, it's a massive grey area. In the spirit of fairness, I'd personally be tempted to ignore the extra attacks component of the Red Blades when fighting a challenge.


Hmm, well I say this because he re-rolls failed wounds, so having a lot of attacks makes him really quite hard. Having said that, he's 2 wounds and T3. He can dish out the pain but just like every elf this side of the sun, he can't really take it back.
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Thekodamas
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Post by Thekodamas »

The Black Scorpion wrote:
Still, it's a massive grey area. In the spirit of fairness, I'd personally be tempted to ignore the extra attacks component of the Red Blades when fighting a challenge.


Hmm, well I say this because he re-rolls failed wounds, so having a lot of attacks makes him really quite hard. Having said that, he's 2 wounds and T3. He can dish out the pain but just like every elf this side of the sun, he can't really take it back.
In maybe a friendly game yes in a tournament then probably no. However I normally don't play in tournaments often so it's not really an issue.
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Post by Lord_jimmy_ »

I think if you are fighting the unit as a whole, you gain the attacks bonus for ranks.
If you are just fighting a character from that unit then no, you should not gain the bonus.
Seems to me that you wouldnt really want him in a challenge anyway. Id prefer him taking out the weaker rank and file than taking on a character.
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Masterofdarkness
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Post by Masterofdarkness »

He is still in combat with the unit, characters that join a unit are for all intents and purposes part of that unit, just because he is in a challenge does not mean he has ceased to fight them. Heck if you could split up attacks between units he would get bonus attacks for both, the way it is worded anyway. But you have to remember he is not cheap, but man if he gets that slavers rule to work more than once a game he has made his points back.
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Post by Grogsnotpowwabomba »

masterofdarkness wrote:wonder how it works if he is fighting multiple units, cause it says ranks not rank bonus, also how does that work if he solo charges skirmishers?


Its pretty clear. He gets +1 attack for each rank in the enemy unit that [b]he is attacking[/b]. So whatever unit he is attacking, just count their number of ranks (rank bonus has no bearing) and add that number to his total attacks for the round.

As to skirmishers, they have no ranks, so he will not receive a bonus...
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Post by Talonz »

Huh. Wish I had my BRB handy, as not getting a CR bonus due to ranks is not the same as not having ranks. Which skirmishers do if there are enough of them when they line up in combat.

Which makes me wonder if your quote is accurate, as the first rank is a rank as well. Are you sure it doesnt actually say "for each rank bonus"?
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Post by Melinia »

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:As to skirmishers, they have no ranks, so he will not receive a bonus...


Skirmishers get ranks when you line them up for combat. They don't get rank bonuses, but the rules for skirmishers in close combat have you rank them up.
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Post by Tigtoad »

Tell that to ogre yettees who have 'ice weapons' but the faq ruled it does not say extra hand weapons, so they get no bonus attack. I'm sure it will be the same here.

I agree, it is probably already incorporated into the profile.

Melinia wrote:
Vilicate wrote:He does not get a +1 for additional Hand Weapons - that's not mentioned in the description for the weapon.


Yup. I'm pretty sure it's an omission given that he's a Corsair and that he wields the "Red Blades" (note the plural), but since Hellebron specifically mentions the extra attack in the Parrying Dagger description, I think it's safe to say that Loknir doesn't get an extra attack for an extra hand weapon until GW publishes an Errata that says that he does.


also how does that work if he solo charges skirmishers?


That's a very interesting question...
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Post by Sulla »

GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:
As to skirmishers, they have no ranks, so he will not receive a bonus...


Everyone in combat has at least one rank, even a single model. And as said by an earlier poster, skirmishers can have ranks, they just can't get rank bonuses. :D
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Masterofdarkness
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Post by Masterofdarkness »

it says each rank so even if in the flank you get his bonus attacks remember rank is front to back, file is left to right
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Calisson
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Post by Calisson »

RAW single-charge on skirmishers: see p.67 of RB.
Lokhir comes in contact with the closest skirmisher, who is aligned base to base on Lokhir.
Two more skirmisher make the front row against Lokhir, because of the principle that as many as possible should be involved in the combat (only 3 of them can be in contact, one is base contact, two are corner contacts). No more skirmisher can be brought in the first line, so remaining skirmishers are set in following ranks. If the unit was made of 10 skirmishers, the result is 4 ranks, the last one being incomplete.
Then Lokhir attacks, with 4 additional attacks!
If less than 3 skirmishers are killed, they can strike back.
If 3 skirmisher are killed, no one strikes back, they have no rank BONUS (as skirmisher), they still get +1 for being more numerous, they lost by 2! :twisted:
Last edited by Calisson on Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Calisson
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Post by Calisson »

So if your unit of 10 corsairs + Lokhir faces 10 skirmishers, it may be a better idea to have Lokhir charge single-handedly them while his unit cheers and yells but don't charge.
Before that charge, the corsairs were useful to protect Lokhir from the skirmisher's shooting, of course.

(edit)
The other use of the corsair unit:
With hatred, Lokhir is bound to win the combat.
But he will have to pursue.
If he is charged then, he still can flee, and leave his former corsair unit in position to countercharge. :evil:
Last edited by Calisson on Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Dark Alliance
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Post by Dark Alliance »

I think you will find in the BRB that there needs to be 5 models wide for it to be classed as a rank. Irrespective of whether it is rank bonus.
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Post by Aspiring executioner »

Actually Dark Alliance no it doesn't.
Dark Elf Tally using the 6th Ed. list
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Calisson
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Post by Calisson »

Dark Alliance wrote:I think you will find in the BRB that there needs to be 5 models wide for it to be classed as a rank. Irrespective of whether it is rank bonus.

Checked. P.6.
Only condition is that all ranks but the last one must have the same number of figs.
P.38, they tell about rank bonus, valid only if the unit is at least 5-wide; the last rank provides such bonus as well as long as it contains at least 5 figs.
Really nothing prevents to take a 3-fig-rank.


For this case, I don't think RAW are fair.
I think RAW are so weird that they are exhilaratingly fun. !lol!
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