Lokir Fellheart
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- Slave on the Altar
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- The black scorpion
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Rules for challenges say that the model issuing the challenge is moved in the ranks of his own unit so that he is in base-to-base contact with the model accepting the challenge. Models from either unit cannot attack any of the characters involved in the challenge, nor can models in the challenge attack models in the unit.
Lokhir's rules are pretty vague in this context, but as neither character is actually removed from their respective units, I'd suggest that Lokhir's opponent still counts as being part of the unit and so Lokhir gets the extra attacks. That's my interpretation of RAW anyway.
Still, it's a massive grey area. In the spirit of fairness, I'd personally be tempted to ignore the extra attacks component of the Red Blades when fighting a challenge. Or if you're unsure, draw your opponent's attention to it at the beginning of the game (i.e. before it becomes an issue!) and decide between you which interpretation to go with. As long as both players agree, and you play consistently it doesn't matter.
Lokhir's rules are pretty vague in this context, but as neither character is actually removed from their respective units, I'd suggest that Lokhir's opponent still counts as being part of the unit and so Lokhir gets the extra attacks. That's my interpretation of RAW anyway.
Still, it's a massive grey area. In the spirit of fairness, I'd personally be tempted to ignore the extra attacks component of the Red Blades when fighting a challenge. Or if you're unsure, draw your opponent's attention to it at the beginning of the game (i.e. before it becomes an issue!) and decide between you which interpretation to go with. As long as both players agree, and you play consistently it doesn't matter.
Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my marbles more than I miss my mind.
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I have to say t is simple and maybe I'm blind to the gray-ness. You get extra attacks based on the ranks of the unit he is attacking. You are attacking the unit but just so happen to be in a challenge with a character or champion from that unit.
The unit doesn't loose ranks for having a challenge even if it is a lone character so I believe you should get the attacks.
The unit doesn't loose ranks for having a challenge even if it is a lone character so I believe you should get the attacks.
- The black scorpion
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Still, it's a massive grey area. In the spirit of fairness, I'd personally be tempted to ignore the extra attacks component of the Red Blades when fighting a challenge.
Hmm, well I say this because he re-rolls failed wounds, so having a lot of attacks makes him really quite hard. Having said that, he's 2 wounds and T3. He can dish out the pain but just like every elf this side of the sun, he can't really take it back.
Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my marbles more than I miss my mind.
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In maybe a friendly game yes in a tournament then probably no. However I normally don't play in tournaments often so it's not really an issue.The Black Scorpion wrote:Still, it's a massive grey area. In the spirit of fairness, I'd personally be tempted to ignore the extra attacks component of the Red Blades when fighting a challenge.
Hmm, well I say this because he re-rolls failed wounds, so having a lot of attacks makes him really quite hard. Having said that, he's 2 wounds and T3. He can dish out the pain but just like every elf this side of the sun, he can't really take it back.
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- Cold One Knight
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I think if you are fighting the unit as a whole, you gain the attacks bonus for ranks.
If you are just fighting a character from that unit then no, you should not gain the bonus.
Seems to me that you wouldnt really want him in a challenge anyway. Id prefer him taking out the weaker rank and file than taking on a character.
If you are just fighting a character from that unit then no, you should not gain the bonus.
Seems to me that you wouldnt really want him in a challenge anyway. Id prefer him taking out the weaker rank and file than taking on a character.
People say I'm cocky, I say it's because they know I'm the best.
GrogsnotPowwabomba wrote:Ok, I agree with Lord_Jimmy here.
- Masterofdarkness
- Malekith's Personal Guard
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He is still in combat with the unit, characters that join a unit are for all intents and purposes part of that unit, just because he is in a challenge does not mean he has ceased to fight them. Heck if you could split up attacks between units he would get bonus attacks for both, the way it is worded anyway. But you have to remember he is not cheap, but man if he gets that slavers rule to work more than once a game he has made his points back.
Always look for the knife from the shadows.
Wait a minute, how do you hide a +2 flaming longsword in the shadows?
Wait a minute, how do you hide a +2 flaming longsword in the shadows?
- Grogsnotpowwabomba
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masterofdarkness wrote:wonder how it works if he is fighting multiple units, cause it says ranks not rank bonus, also how does that work if he solo charges skirmishers?
Its pretty clear. He gets +1 attack for each rank in the enemy unit that [b]he is attacking[/b]. So whatever unit he is attacking, just count their number of ranks (rank bonus has no bearing) and add that number to his total attacks for the round.
As to skirmishers, they have no ranks, so he will not receive a bonus...
3 bots slain in Khaine's name.
Huh. Wish I had my BRB handy, as not getting a CR bonus due to ranks is not the same as not having ranks. Which skirmishers do if there are enough of them when they line up in combat.
Which makes me wonder if your quote is accurate, as the first rank is a rank as well. Are you sure it doesnt actually say "for each rank bonus"?
Which makes me wonder if your quote is accurate, as the first rank is a rank as well. Are you sure it doesnt actually say "for each rank bonus"?
Tell that to ogre yettees who have 'ice weapons' but the faq ruled it does not say extra hand weapons, so they get no bonus attack. I'm sure it will be the same here.
I agree, it is probably already incorporated into the profile.
I agree, it is probably already incorporated into the profile.
Melinia wrote:Vilicate wrote:He does not get a +1 for additional Hand Weapons - that's not mentioned in the description for the weapon.
Yup. I'm pretty sure it's an omission given that he's a Corsair and that he wields the "Red Blades" (note the plural), but since Hellebron specifically mentions the extra attack in the Parrying Dagger description, I think it's safe to say that Loknir doesn't get an extra attack for an extra hand weapon until GW publishes an Errata that says that he does.also how does that work if he solo charges skirmishers?
That's a very interesting question...
- Masterofdarkness
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RAW single-charge on skirmishers: see p.67 of RB.
Lokhir comes in contact with the closest skirmisher, who is aligned base to base on Lokhir.
Two more skirmisher make the front row against Lokhir, because of the principle that as many as possible should be involved in the combat (only 3 of them can be in contact, one is base contact, two are corner contacts). No more skirmisher can be brought in the first line, so remaining skirmishers are set in following ranks. If the unit was made of 10 skirmishers, the result is 4 ranks, the last one being incomplete.
Then Lokhir attacks, with 4 additional attacks!
If less than 3 skirmishers are killed, they can strike back.
If 3 skirmisher are killed, no one strikes back, they have no rank BONUS (as skirmisher), they still get +1 for being more numerous, they lost by 2!
Lokhir comes in contact with the closest skirmisher, who is aligned base to base on Lokhir.
Two more skirmisher make the front row against Lokhir, because of the principle that as many as possible should be involved in the combat (only 3 of them can be in contact, one is base contact, two are corner contacts). No more skirmisher can be brought in the first line, so remaining skirmishers are set in following ranks. If the unit was made of 10 skirmishers, the result is 4 ranks, the last one being incomplete.
Then Lokhir attacks, with 4 additional attacks!
If less than 3 skirmishers are killed, they can strike back.
If 3 skirmisher are killed, no one strikes back, they have no rank BONUS (as skirmisher), they still get +1 for being more numerous, they lost by 2!
Last edited by Calisson on Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
So if your unit of 10 corsairs + Lokhir faces 10 skirmishers, it may be a better idea to have Lokhir charge single-handedly them while his unit cheers and yells but don't charge.
Before that charge, the corsairs were useful to protect Lokhir from the skirmisher's shooting, of course.
(edit)
The other use of the corsair unit:
With hatred, Lokhir is bound to win the combat.
But he will have to pursue.
If he is charged then, he still can flee, and leave his former corsair unit in position to countercharge.
Before that charge, the corsairs were useful to protect Lokhir from the skirmisher's shooting, of course.
(edit)
The other use of the corsair unit:
With hatred, Lokhir is bound to win the combat.
But he will have to pursue.
If he is charged then, he still can flee, and leave his former corsair unit in position to countercharge.
Last edited by Calisson on Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Dark Alliance wrote:I think you will find in the BRB that there needs to be 5 models wide for it to be classed as a rank. Irrespective of whether it is rank bonus.
Checked. P.6.
Only condition is that all ranks but the last one must have the same number of figs.
P.38, they tell about rank bonus, valid only if the unit is at least 5-wide; the last rank provides such bonus as well as long as it contains at least 5 figs.
Really nothing prevents to take a 3-fig-rank.
For this case, I don't think RAW are fair.
I think RAW are so weird that they are exhilaratingly fun.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}