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Knights vs. Chariots 
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Master of the Red Legion
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I was wondering what people's opinions were on the debate between Cold One Knights and Cold One Chariots. Which one is better than the other? I'm thinking more along the line of a single semi-support unit, but if you feel like going into a debate with full combat units, mount options, etc, go nuts. ;) This isn't a simple poll - I'm asking for thought out input. ;)

Consider:

- Both have the same leadership, stupidity, WS (I had forgotten about this one), basic movement, and take up one special slot each
- COK march
- Command options and magic items for COK
- Chariots explode
- One the charge, knights have S6 attacks vs S5 impact hits
- Impact hits vary from 2 to 7, whereas knights are most likely to hit 3 to 5 times (assume no command)
- Knights have a better save and one more wound to the unit
- Chariot is T5 vs T3 COK
- Chariot has repeater crossbows
- A basic unit of 5 COK (no upgrades) is 35% more expensive than the chariot. With full command, it is 75% more expensive
- Chariot has only 4 attacks in prolonged combat
- Fleeing chariots can hurt your own stuff
- Chariots shouldn't be entering terrain features

So, obviously, a tooled up unit of knights is going to hit harder than a single chariot - no debating that really. They are also better in subsequent round of combat. However, as it is a semi-support unit I'm thinking about, that's not as big a deal since its either flanking or charging with something else (a character, say). The big difference is the cost. I've always found pretty much any chariot to be the most cost effective unit type in the game. A single chariot with a good roll can break large and expensive ranked unit and claim all sorts of VPs for its trouble. Against armies without S7, they are rather difficult to destroy.

So, I ask you, under the new rules, which unit is the better choice?

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Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:53 pm
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Brolock
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I prefer the knights. I know how many hits I'll get, so I know about what I'll be killing. The randomness of the impact hits doesn't help the chariots. Also, knights are quite a bit faster. The only thing I like about a chariot is that I can mount a Master on it and save the special slots for other things. Giving the Ring of Hotek to your champ can extend your magical protection across your army pretty well, without using any allowance from your characters. I know you covered those points, but I was just pointing out those that I held relevance for me. So in the end, Knights are just the better unit in my opinion.

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Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:02 pm
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I prefer Knights also (I believe they are S5 though, though I may be wrong) I tend to field units of 10 with Malus or another character, and I no nearly any unit I charge will break, and if not, Malus is more than capable of helping in sustained combat.
I've never used a Chariot so I cannot comment on them but I have been charged by one. Ouch...
Also with a lack of DRs I just thought the COK were more practical. Also given that the Dreadknight can have a killing blow weapon and an awesome banner, they are heavy units. Also near un-killable.
However, the Chariots are hit and miss I feel. Removing the 2 for 1 annoyed me, but I understand they can be very effective. Also Malekith can ride one, with a 2+ AS and a 2+ WS, just no Dragon.
Tough one but I'd say Knights, unless Malekith is in the Chariot.

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Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:12 pm
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one more plus for the chariot is its better manoeuvrability: it can turn on the spot in any point of its movements, which is a real blessing

knights have the benefit of being more flexible now, though. they are now good at both offense and defense. with hatred, they hit more often, and with S4 attacks on the knights they are much better in prolonged combat.

chariots have the benefit of being cost efficient, but not the benefit of being slot-efficient. with one special slot, you get a unit of knights, which can be a front attack unit, which is also capable of taking charges sometimes. to use chariots efficiently, you usually need two, as then they can cover a bigger area with their threat range, thus aiding your infantry greatly. that means, you need to expend two special slots.


Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:28 pm
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Shade
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I prefer the chariot. It's cheaper and losing it doesn't hurt as much since the knights have a standard most of the time.

Besides when you want to have so many things in the list, it's nice to keep things with stupidity cheap :P.

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Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:33 pm
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I prefer the Knights, even when outmanouvered they can still put up a good fight and never go thru the indignity of rolling a 1 for impact hits. Much more reliable and look much better!

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Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:39 pm
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Knights all the way.

Chariots are too unreliable, as they need to roll well on impact hits to work. Furthermore, putting your general in one is a *bad* idea. They are too fragile to protect him and you are likely to lose him if a charge doesn't go well.

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Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:05 pm
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Master of the Red Legion
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Remember though that I'm thinking of them as a support unit - not as a single frontal attack unit. Its true that even a small unit of knights can do mean things to a unit now with S6 and hatred, but given the movement capabilities of the chariot, if the chariot gets led about, it can recover more easily. A bare unit of 5 knights, no command, isn't going to be able to break a unit, more than likely. If its a support unit, all it really needs to do is add a few wounds to the combat. Think of the situation with regards to this, plus maybe some shades in the flank.

If you want to think all out punch, think 2 chariots vs a unit of 6 knights with a master. 2 chariots will do at least 7 impact hits under even poor circumstances and then you have 8 S4 attacks after that, plus the shooting in the off turns. Its 2 stupidity checks, but the punch is unquestionable. Even the absolute minimum of 4 impact hits is still not too shabby. The absolute minimum for the knights is still 0. ;)

So, given the focus on a support unit, does your discussion change?

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Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:59 pm
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I think Cok are a great offensive unit on the charge, but at T3 not so great if shot up early or charged themselves.

On the otherhand chariots are cheap but slow, but I like to use them as a support counter charge because impact hits ASF. A simple way is to put an expendable unit (like harpes) in a position to be charged in front of your best infantry unit (like BG), with the chariot to one side and about a further 5-10 inches back. Allow the Harpies to be charged and killed, your opponent overruns into the BG but has CC in your next turn. In your turn you countercharge with Coc, and with some good rolling you can wipe out most of the front rank. This works well even with warriors, and even better with an assassin.


Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:14 am
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I prefer Chariots for the smaller frontage, higher toughness and lower points cost. Against a normal sized infantry unit you could easily get two into the front. I usually run two chariots to provide redundancy.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:58 am
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Depends a bit on my overall army build.

If I am focusing on magic and/or shooting, I still need some combat threat to keep my opponent from just bum-rushing my line. Since chariots are cheaper, they fit the role better. I can take 2 of them for about the same cost as a unit of knights with accoutrements. Bottom line is that as a support unit, I think the chariots are better.

But as a main-line unit in a combat-oriented list, Cold One knights can be awesome. Another player in my group used a tooled-up unit of Cold one Knights (Hydra Banner BSB & Standard of Slaughter) to pop a unit of over 40 zombies on the charge. And the amazing thing is that the unit with BSB is just over 400 points -- expensive, but it certainly does not break the bank.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:09 am
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The thing is they both use a special choice, so its not like you could take 4 chariots for the cost of 1 unit of knights, while maintaining your pre-existing army comp. Sure, chariots are cool and fun to use, but the knights more consistent hitting power, less volatility (S7 appears against me much more often than it should...), and the options for a BSB/magic standard on the knights make them a better option for me.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:43 am
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Chariot :
impact hit are great against ASF unit
small frontage make it good for combi-charge
Knight :
Better movement
fight on

but I would choose Hydra over these two stupid unit! :lol:


Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:58 am
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I think that besides shades the chariots and knights are best that we have in our special choises (ok, if i had BG unit they would be in my army, insanely cheap BGs anyone??). Why do i think so? Because what we lack is S5 or more hits. They both have their role, chariots as infantry supporting units (pearmen don't generate kills, chariots do and they work beautiful together) while knights act as a bulldozer (They can break enemies on their own while chariots have hard time to do it). I prefer taking both but if i had to choose between them i would look who i would be facing.


Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:27 am
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I would prefer the chariot.

- Has about same hit potential as a naked Knight unit.
- Lower Frontage, so teaming with another unit in some front works better.
- Can shadow your ranked units flank to the most opposed side. Thus on a countercharge in the flanks your enemy doesn't negate your ranked units bonus.
- I would mount a Character on it anyway for US5.
- I's cool ...

well.. that's my thoughts.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:16 am
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Arnold Layne
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No one mentioned a 2+ save for the Knights? Chariot has 3+. I think a Chariot is a good option if you can't afford Knights, but get Knights if you can. I mostly say this for their increased reliability, in the matter of more wounds, no popping, better save. In either case I view them as support units, as it seems now our infantry are our game-breakers.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:35 am
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Well I think that the T5 and the 3+ save is actually quite a bit more survivable against small arms fire, especially handgunners and such.

I've played a couple of games so far and in my experience I think that chariots make a better support unit both because they are cheaper and because of the smaller frontage/manueverable. Also it seems to me that CoK are better suited to be line breakers than simply being support units.

A unit of 6 CoK with possibly a FC and magic banner can take on most infantry to the front for a little more than 200 points. Chariots on the other hand are great at helping another unit charge with its small frontage.


Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:00 am
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Arnold Layne
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Fair enough, but that's T5, 4W, 3+ and poppable vs. T3, 5W, 2+, unpoppable. Chariot probably is better against small arms, but it's a cannon magnet.

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Caveat Numptor.


Karonath - WS6 / S4 / T4 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Bloodfeather, heavy armour, helm, Sea Dragon Cloak, rope x 2, month rations x 2
Inventory: longspear, 2 short swords, glaive, winter gear, shade cloak,
Mount: Dark Steed (Shiny), talisman of kurnous
Gold: 2294
Skills: Ambidexterity, Controlled Frenzy, Basic Ride, Drukh Kaganth
Class: Khainite


Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:04 am
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If you want to get a supoprt unit for you infantry, then chariots are definitely better than knights for two things: better manoeuvrability and smaller frontage.

Let's think how we need to support infantry:
1. Add active CR (cause unsaved wounds)
2. Negate/add static CR (flank/rare charge)
3. Kill enemy light troops (which can either come to negate your static CR or come to hunt your other support troops, like warmachines or magic)

COK are better than chariots at only one thing - flanking. And that's not to say that they are good at this. They are not manoeuvrable enough to get to flanks easily - they only have M7 and their special movement rules don't make them more manoeuvrable but vice versa (stupidity). If you need units for flanking, take DR, not COK. What COK are good at is being front liners - a unit of 6 with FC, warbanner and hydra banner BSB breaks most any ranked infantry from the front unsupported (there are exceptions).

However, for adding active CR and for light troops interceptions COC are much much better.

With their smaller frontage, they can get into combats together with your infantry blocks - something that COK will struggle doing. Besides, being a single model, COC will get all of its attacks in, even if it only touches the enemy with a few millimeters. For COK the same would mean that only one knight fights.

With their excellent manoeuvrability, COC can very easily change the arc that they are projecting their threat range to: this would be a no-go space for any light unit, as COC simply owns such units.

So, if you need a main-liner which is good in both offense and defense, use COK; if you need support for your infantry, use COC.


Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:24 am
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A unit of five knights with FC and Warbanner cost as much as two chariots do.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:48 am
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i like the idea of chariots being used in a counter attacking form, its defensive in a fashio using spear elves to take a charge hoping they hold and then using the chariot to break the unit. The fact that they have a smaller frontage allows them to sit tightly in infantry formations or a battle line and there loss does not make a gaping hole from which cavalry could exploit. The fact that you get a bare minimum of 6 attacks at varying strengths is great which could go to 11 with a good role is even better. I like cok but i think you hav to use them in a different way to chariots simply because of there nature and size of unit, i like to use the to break large units or counterattacking on the flanks.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:04 am
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Of course people will call me stupid for it, if only to make their wit publicly known, but I try to include both in my army if I can. Due to its manoeuvrability I prefer the chariot as a support while I'm planning on getting a BSB with Hydra banner to get a helluvalot attacks from a small knight unit. I have grown fond of the chariot as a mount for a noble, pretty much forming a unit on his own.


Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:40 am
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I wouldn't call it stupid - taking both is definitely a very viable option. They fill different roles, and thus taking one doesn't mean you have to avoid the other.


Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:02 am
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Brolock
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Leth: I don't think taking both is a bad idea, I just think that if you take a chariot, its best to take it as a mount now. Our special choices are our most contested spots and being able to essentially have 5 specials is a pretty good deal.

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Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:14 am
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How about BSB in chariot carrying standard of slaughter.. That could be a suprise..


Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:17 am
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