Had my first go at these guys today and it sisn't go that well. it was a 2500 point game and they had 4 lances of at least 10 each and 3 peggy knights.
I stalled one lance with march blocking shades, and caused his good lance to be delayed by rear charging them on turn 2 with harpies, which had the added bonus of causing him to pursue back towards his own deployment zone.
Despite throwing fire at them from 2 reapers, 20 rxbs, fire from the shades, and fire from 5 dark riders, I only managed to down 2 knights because of their good armor saves, and that stoopido ward save.
Magic went fairly well since they only had one caster and I forced them to burn both of their scrolls on turn 1.
anyway, once they hit it was mostly over. My black guards had hag graef and held, but my warrior block broke and when he pursued me off the board, he came on again and nailed my BG in the keister.
Help with Bretonians?
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Silverback
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Vilboz
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This is perfect, just what I'd done myself, because you don't want to take all those lance formation charges all at once.I stalled one lance with march blocking shades, and caused his good lance to be delayed by rear charging them on turn 2 with harpies, which had the added bonus of causing him to pursue back towards his own deployment zone.
Maybe you did, but try using your DR to march block them as well.
Magic helps alot vs bretts and if you pulled out 2 scrolls round 1 it sounds like it did it's job. Lore of metal is really nice since they all have a tone of armour.Magic went fairly well since they only had one caster and I forced them to burn both of their scrolls on turn 1.
The shooting is usually pretty ineffective vs 2+ AS, that's just life. I usually, unless I'm aiming for the pegagus knights, shoot one bolt with my RBTs to ignore that normal AS all together. I don't know if it's statistically correct to do so but it feels better when they only have the ward to rely on. The main job for the RBTs is getting those pesky pegasus knights down to a managble size.Despite throwing fire at them from 2 reapers, 20 rxbs, fire from the shades, and fire from 5 dark riders, I only managed to down 2 knights because of their good armor saves, and that stoopido ward save.
In close combat the assasin is golden. Give him the rune and touch of death and you have yourself a mean brett killing machine. Had him pull down 4 knights all by himself one time.anyway, once they hit it was mostly over. My black guards had hag graef and held, but my warrior block broke and when he pursued me off the board, he came on again and nailed my BG in the keister.
//Vilboz
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Silverback
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I experienced an hydra against brets.
Incredibly strong. It took a charge from a lance, received a single wound and had to flee only because of combat resolution.
That was pretty much my last surviving unit at that time.
An assassin is good as well, but must stay inside his mother unit (not what I did).
Incredibly strong. It took a charge from a lance, received a single wound and had to flee only because of combat resolution.
That was pretty much my last surviving unit at that time.
An assassin is good as well, but must stay inside his mother unit (not what I did).
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Zakath the slaughterer
- Master of Puppets
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A well equipped assassin, Hydra, RBT and a unit of CoK with Master (with Sword of Ruin and Potion of Strength) have proved to have some good results in the not so distant past. I do believe however, my opponent had some bad rolls during that game.
As Calisson mentioned, Hydra are particularly good vs Bretonnians because they are strong, auto breakers and can do some devastating damaged with it's breath weapon.
As Calisson mentioned, Hydra are particularly good vs Bretonnians because they are strong, auto breakers and can do some devastating damaged with it's breath weapon.
Saldrimek Xenan - WS6 / S4 / T3 / D5 / I3
Equipment: Executioners Axe (Rune of Beastslaying - Heroic Killing Blow), 2 Scimitars (Rune of Speed - Always Strike First), Dagger, Rune Branded Leather Armour, Executioner Helm, Fine Set of Throwing Knives (x4)
Inventory: Amulet of Darkness, Poison Vials x7, Deadly Poison Vials x8
Mount: Dark Steed
Gold: 163
Skills: Ambidexterity, Frenzy, Two Weapon Fighting, Ride
Class: Khainite
Equipment: Executioners Axe (Rune of Beastslaying - Heroic Killing Blow), 2 Scimitars (Rune of Speed - Always Strike First), Dagger, Rune Branded Leather Armour, Executioner Helm, Fine Set of Throwing Knives (x4)
Inventory: Amulet of Darkness, Poison Vials x7, Deadly Poison Vials x8
Mount: Dark Steed
Gold: 163
Skills: Ambidexterity, Frenzy, Two Weapon Fighting, Ride
Class: Khainite
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Lakissov
- Malekith's Best Friend
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Now, you have seen the most important strengths of Bretonnians:
- Resilience to shooting due to good armor and a ward
- Potent hitting power of the lance on the charge, combining both static and active CR
Additionally, their strength is high speed, which helps them deliver their lances where they are needed
However, Bretonnians also have a couple of very serious weaknesses that a dark elf army has the ability of exploiting:
1. Low manoeuvrability of lances; the lance is really big, so when you wheel it, the models in the back row move quite a lot, thus reducing the amount that a bretonnian player can move. Roughly, a 30 degree wheel means that the lance uses a bit more than 4" of their movement allowance. To turn 90 degrees, they'd have to use up 12.5" of the movement allowance. This means, that bretonnian lance are not good at recovering after having been redirected - if they are march-blocked, thy can only wheel a bit less than 60 degrees - which means that they'd have to use full reform or turn the facing and then reduce rank width (giving up 75% of movement).
How to use this? You do have units with good redirecting abilities - harpies and dark riders.
The trick you did with harpies (charging the rear) doesn't always work - your opponent can succeed on the roll to restrain pursuit and just ignore your fleeing harpies. However, there is another trick with harpies - using them as a screen for redirecting. In essence, you put your harpies in front of the bretonnian unit in such a way that the bretonnian lance can't really move forward normally and either gets stopped or has to charge the harpies. The closest harpy visible to the lance should be positioned in such a way that the line from the center of the lance going through this harpy would go at a severe angle to the movement of the lance - preferably making an angle of at least 60 degrees. If the lance charges the harpies, then the flee move is made along this line, so the harpies fly away at an angle, making bretonnians pursue at an angle and exposing a flank.
A similar trick can be done with dark riders - but the difference is that for good redirection they would have to hold, not flee. You place the dark riders at such an angle of the battle line, that the line of flee and pursuit would expose a flank to the battle line. If the lance charges (if it doesn't, it should be prevented from charging anything it wants to charge), then it has to align with the charged dark riders, and then, when pursuing (and even if restraining pursuit), it will stay with an exposed flank.
2. The second weakness lies in the so-called "rubber lance syndrome". Bretonnian lances are formidable on the charge because of the combination of static and active CR, but, while the static CR comes regardless, the active CR is conditioned by the combination of +2S due to the lances charging and the ability of models on the flanks to strike, not only models in BTB.
Both of these active CR strengths disappear, if the bretonnians are not the ones making the charge (or if it's not the first round of combat). What we would look at in this case is just a couple of S3 attacks - nothing to be too scared of.
Additionally, some of the static CR can be negated - I mean the rank bonus. You can be almost sure to win the combat by 2-3 if you charge a 12-strong bretonnian lance with a 20-strong unit of warriors with banner in the flank (from static CR, you have 5 and he has 2, and he doesn't have too many scary attacks). Of course, if the lance contains the BSB of doom or a fighty hero who is going to get in base contact, then you need also to add some punch to the equation from your own side.
Thus, exploiting these two weaknesses would mean trying to do the following:
1. Try to use your manoeuvrability to divert the lances from charging you head on
2. Try to flank charge their lances with combat units of your own
3. When needed, make combined charges to be sure that the lance loses by 2-3, better by more, so that it would surely flee and get run down.
4. For 2&3 to work, you will also need to use your manoeuvrable units to separate the lances and deny them the ability to countercharge your countercharge.
- Resilience to shooting due to good armor and a ward
- Potent hitting power of the lance on the charge, combining both static and active CR
Additionally, their strength is high speed, which helps them deliver their lances where they are needed
However, Bretonnians also have a couple of very serious weaknesses that a dark elf army has the ability of exploiting:
1. Low manoeuvrability of lances; the lance is really big, so when you wheel it, the models in the back row move quite a lot, thus reducing the amount that a bretonnian player can move. Roughly, a 30 degree wheel means that the lance uses a bit more than 4" of their movement allowance. To turn 90 degrees, they'd have to use up 12.5" of the movement allowance. This means, that bretonnian lance are not good at recovering after having been redirected - if they are march-blocked, thy can only wheel a bit less than 60 degrees - which means that they'd have to use full reform or turn the facing and then reduce rank width (giving up 75% of movement).
How to use this? You do have units with good redirecting abilities - harpies and dark riders.
The trick you did with harpies (charging the rear) doesn't always work - your opponent can succeed on the roll to restrain pursuit and just ignore your fleeing harpies. However, there is another trick with harpies - using them as a screen for redirecting. In essence, you put your harpies in front of the bretonnian unit in such a way that the bretonnian lance can't really move forward normally and either gets stopped or has to charge the harpies. The closest harpy visible to the lance should be positioned in such a way that the line from the center of the lance going through this harpy would go at a severe angle to the movement of the lance - preferably making an angle of at least 60 degrees. If the lance charges the harpies, then the flee move is made along this line, so the harpies fly away at an angle, making bretonnians pursue at an angle and exposing a flank.
A similar trick can be done with dark riders - but the difference is that for good redirection they would have to hold, not flee. You place the dark riders at such an angle of the battle line, that the line of flee and pursuit would expose a flank to the battle line. If the lance charges (if it doesn't, it should be prevented from charging anything it wants to charge), then it has to align with the charged dark riders, and then, when pursuing (and even if restraining pursuit), it will stay with an exposed flank.
2. The second weakness lies in the so-called "rubber lance syndrome". Bretonnian lances are formidable on the charge because of the combination of static and active CR, but, while the static CR comes regardless, the active CR is conditioned by the combination of +2S due to the lances charging and the ability of models on the flanks to strike, not only models in BTB.
Both of these active CR strengths disappear, if the bretonnians are not the ones making the charge (or if it's not the first round of combat). What we would look at in this case is just a couple of S3 attacks - nothing to be too scared of.
Additionally, some of the static CR can be negated - I mean the rank bonus. You can be almost sure to win the combat by 2-3 if you charge a 12-strong bretonnian lance with a 20-strong unit of warriors with banner in the flank (from static CR, you have 5 and he has 2, and he doesn't have too many scary attacks). Of course, if the lance contains the BSB of doom or a fighty hero who is going to get in base contact, then you need also to add some punch to the equation from your own side.
Thus, exploiting these two weaknesses would mean trying to do the following:
1. Try to use your manoeuvrability to divert the lances from charging you head on
2. Try to flank charge their lances with combat units of your own
3. When needed, make combined charges to be sure that the lance loses by 2-3, better by more, so that it would surely flee and get run down.
4. For 2&3 to work, you will also need to use your manoeuvrable units to separate the lances and deny them the ability to countercharge your countercharge.
Last edited by Lakissov on Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Grogsnotpowwabomba
- The Aspect of Murder
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Lakissov has hit the nail on the head. Redirecting lances with Harpies/Dark Riders and hitting them in the flank is the key. Literally park these bait units right in front of the lances so that they have no choice but to sit and do nothing or charge the bait. The bait will die, but the setups it can provide will make all the difference.
Bretonnians are a tough army to face, but once you know these weaknesses it becomes much more manageable.
Bretonnians are a tough army to face, but once you know these weaknesses it becomes much more manageable.
3 bots slain in Khaine's name.
Lakissov wrote:1. Low manoeuvrability of lances; the lance is really big, so when you wheel it, the models in the back row move quite a lot, thus reducing the amount that a bretonnian player can move. Roughly, a 30 degree wheel means that the lance uses a bit more than 4" of their movement allowance. To turn 90 degrees, they'd have to use up 12.5" of the movement allowance. This means, that bretonnian lance are not good at recovering after having been redirected - if they are march-blocked, thy can only wheel a bit less than 60 degrees - which means that they'd have to use full reform or turn the facing and then reduce rank width (giving up 75% of movement).
According to BRB, that is not how wheeling is measured. One measured the distance traveled by the outermost, relative to the wheel, front rank model. This may lead to model in extra rank moving more than their movement. This can be seen as the outer model in back rank instead of rushing to the side and then moving forwards, just shortcuts the move, This makes deep formation more maneuverable, but redirecting is still the sensible thing to do.
Caveat: We have forbidden the obvious abuse of this (the fanatic slingshot) but for reasonable formations we play by the rule.
As for RBTs: 2+ or better save deserved asingle bolt, worse ave multiple shots for T3 models. Regardless of wards saves except for Pendant and other S affected wards.
Malerun
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Silverback
- Slave (off the Altar)
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OK, taking the advice given here into consideration I made some changes to get myself up to 3 units of Harpies. In addition to the relativly low cost of these units and their high mobility, I find the fact that DE units ignore them in terms of Ld issues to be very useful.
My opponent came with the same 4 lances he had before and again he set up with two sets of two each set a few inchs from one another and each pair fairly near the center facing my line.
This time, rather than trying to redirect him I march blocked his best lance with my shades, and blocked another with harpies.
I then dropped a unit of 5 harpies in fron of each of the remaining lances. I placed my harpies about 10-12 inches out front of his lances, and marched my infantry out 10". This put his lances 14' from my infantry, but with harpies in the way. When he charged, I just let the harpies flee. That left his lances moving only 8' and being in charge range for my infantry.
I did as suggested and poured all the fire and magic I could into the peggy riders as soon as they were out and managed to kill all 3.
I tried adding an assassin to my 20 warriors, but sadly it didn't do anything. It scored plenty of hits but nearly all of the wounds were saved. With the harpy bait and charge thing I am not sure it is worth it's points although it did kill the unit champion in the 3rd round of combat, finally!
I ended up breaking one of the lances but the other held out until a march blocked unit could reinforce them. Thanfully by that time I had flanked the other march blocked lance with CoK and they were holding but slowly being ground down. That reinfocement charge broke my black guards, but by the time the lance had gotten out behind my line, and goteen turned around, and back near the fight, the other three lances were toast and he was outa magik defense so it was all down hill.
My opponent came with the same 4 lances he had before and again he set up with two sets of two each set a few inchs from one another and each pair fairly near the center facing my line.
This time, rather than trying to redirect him I march blocked his best lance with my shades, and blocked another with harpies.
I then dropped a unit of 5 harpies in fron of each of the remaining lances. I placed my harpies about 10-12 inches out front of his lances, and marched my infantry out 10". This put his lances 14' from my infantry, but with harpies in the way. When he charged, I just let the harpies flee. That left his lances moving only 8' and being in charge range for my infantry.
I did as suggested and poured all the fire and magic I could into the peggy riders as soon as they were out and managed to kill all 3.
I tried adding an assassin to my 20 warriors, but sadly it didn't do anything. It scored plenty of hits but nearly all of the wounds were saved. With the harpy bait and charge thing I am not sure it is worth it's points although it did kill the unit champion in the 3rd round of combat, finally!
I ended up breaking one of the lances but the other held out until a march blocked unit could reinforce them. Thanfully by that time I had flanked the other march blocked lance with CoK and they were holding but slowly being ground down. That reinfocement charge broke my black guards, but by the time the lance had gotten out behind my line, and goteen turned around, and back near the fight, the other three lances were toast and he was outa magik defense so it was all down hill.
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Lakissov
- Malekith's Best Friend
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Congratulations on your success, Silverback - I guess you already got a feeling of how to deal with Brets, and will move this feeling further in future games.
One comment about assassins: against bretonnians, assassins are useful in one case - if you take the assassin for character killing (+d3 attacks, KB, re-roll 1-s to wound). Bretonnian characters have a very significant synergy effect with the knights - not only do they add punch; additionally, they can bring static CR to their lances (e.g. the BSB of doom who alone brings +3 static CR to the bret side). The assassin's potential is waisted if you direct him against simple knights - it is much better to kill those characters and then watch the knights flee.
One comment about assassins: against bretonnians, assassins are useful in one case - if you take the assassin for character killing (+d3 attacks, KB, re-roll 1-s to wound). Bretonnian characters have a very significant synergy effect with the knights - not only do they add punch; additionally, they can bring static CR to their lances (e.g. the BSB of doom who alone brings +3 static CR to the bret side). The assassin's potential is waisted if you direct him against simple knights - it is much better to kill those characters and then watch the knights flee.
Congrats on your victory! As I found out too, keep them from marching into charge position is essential and breaks their neck. Very good work.
For the first part: A master cannot take Sword of ruin and Potion of Strength as the sword already takes up the allowance. Also it does not make much sense to combine these against brets your wounding with S4 against T3 most of the time and the potion only increases their ward save (S>4).
On the second part: Yes, Hydras are awesome, best if you avoid being charged. They still have their 4+ save and 5+ ward, which will be tough if you get 9+ S5 attacks on your pet.
Khel wrote:A well equipped assassin, Hydra, RBT and a unit of CoK with Master (with Sword of Ruin and Potion of Strength)...
As Calisson mentioned, Hydra are particularly good vs Bretonnians because they are strong, auto breakers and can do some devastating damaged with it's breath weapon.
For the first part: A master cannot take Sword of ruin and Potion of Strength as the sword already takes up the allowance. Also it does not make much sense to combine these against brets your wounding with S4 against T3 most of the time and the potion only increases their ward save (S>4).
On the second part: Yes, Hydras are awesome, best if you avoid being charged. They still have their 4+ save and 5+ ward, which will be tough if you get 9+ S5 attacks on your pet.
If they were not sitting on our land, I would not spend a single bolt on the Asur.
How to tell apart the elves:
Men run naked - Asrai
Women run naked - Druchii
Don't know whether man or woman - Asur
How to tell apart the elves:
Men run naked - Asrai
Women run naked - Druchii
Don't know whether man or woman - Asur
I have also found CoK's can be good against Brettonians as they have a higher ability to charge them and can easily negate their armour.
Even if charged our own AS can stand up to them as they are only humans and will have trouble hitting. While we have basic S4 on both rider and mount so can do a lot of damage in return. Also causing fear is very helpful against brettonians as they don't have particularly high leadership. If charging try to get Doom and Darkness off on them so they fail their fear test and run off.
Even if charged our own AS can stand up to them as they are only humans and will have trouble hitting. While we have basic S4 on both rider and mount so can do a lot of damage in return. Also causing fear is very helpful against brettonians as they don't have particularly high leadership. If charging try to get Doom and Darkness off on them so they fail their fear test and run off.
"I will embrace death without regret as I embrace life without fear"
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Champion_re
- Warrior
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Lord on manticore + the "no armoursaves" sword and bretonnians die by the droves. He can flank charge any unit he wishes and manti's killingblows + your lords attacks make bretonnians very unhappy. I stopped using this vs bretonnians becouse otherwise I could just bring an "I auto-win by massacre" button. 
Otherwise a unit of executioners with death hag BSB (ASF banner) can take a charge from 2 lances and mince them to dust over a couple of combat rounds. (if you have a cauldron to make them stubborn and give +1A). Especially since bretts don't cause fear (altough how you can be more afraid of a wimpy skeleton than a horde of fully armoured fanatical knights charging at you in full gallop atop massive steeds eludes me
). The exec's never failed me vs bretts so far.
Do not single bolt them. If we calculate short range we get:
6 shots --> 6*2/3*2/3*1/2*5/6= 1.11 knights killed
singe bolt --> 1*2/3*5/6*2/3 = 0.37 knights killed, and thus it's unlikely it will carry on and kill a 2nd knight.
Have fun fighting them and GL in future battles!
Otherwise a unit of executioners with death hag BSB (ASF banner) can take a charge from 2 lances and mince them to dust over a couple of combat rounds. (if you have a cauldron to make them stubborn and give +1A). Especially since bretts don't cause fear (altough how you can be more afraid of a wimpy skeleton than a horde of fully armoured fanatical knights charging at you in full gallop atop massive steeds eludes me
). The exec's never failed me vs bretts so far.Do not single bolt them. If we calculate short range we get:
6 shots --> 6*2/3*2/3*1/2*5/6= 1.11 knights killed
singe bolt --> 1*2/3*5/6*2/3 = 0.37 knights killed, and thus it's unlikely it will carry on and kill a 2nd knight.
Have fun fighting them and GL in future battles!
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Eqaddictedfool
- Corsair
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- Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:17 pm
I have never actually brets the best i did was a tie. The way i achieved this really using the terrain to my advantage i tucked all my guys in a corner and made him squeeze all his knights into small crevises known as the hotgates where their numbers count for nothing. wave after wave they will crash into ehr nevermind you know what I mean. let him come to you and let his knights errant chase dark riders. oh boy do they love to chase! Once they are in between your units charge into their flanks. But this only really works on tables with lots of terrain. a sorceress on a peggy with any lore that can cause lots of panics. Fire is especially good against them because of their high armor saves and the burning head which causes panic.
I had a good fun against Brets using DR with rhb and run circles around their lances, shooting, occasionnally kill one and never stay in the arc of charge. It was in a small game against an unexperienced player.
I had less fun against same player when he used well the damsel and the Life Lore. I will have even less fun when he will field his new etheral Green Knight.
I had less fun against same player when he used well the damsel and the Life Lore. I will have even less fun when he will field his new etheral Green Knight.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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Warpaintoz
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I had some success against them at a tournament last weekend: the kicker was the Assassin in a unit of Spearmen with the Banner of Murder. I choked up the multicharge using DR and Harpies and let his Errant bus with character come at the Spearmen. He took the bait, the Assassin laid down 4 wounds on the Charcater and then the Errants hit with only half their attacks. In the end it meant that the spearmen held, exposing the flank of the erraants and stuffed hi entire battle line.
The unexpected asssassin was king all weekend, and it kept the opponent guessing. Vs brtes wiith Manbane, Rune of Khain and the assistance of the banner of murder he's devastating.
The unexpected asssassin was king all weekend, and it kept the opponent guessing. Vs brtes wiith Manbane, Rune of Khain and the assistance of the banner of murder he's devastating.