Is the Pendant of Khaeleth Fair?

[Schlorgadorb]

A couple friends of mine were commenting that the Pendant of Khaeleth is a drastically cheesy item, and were demanding that if I ever use it I should double its point cost. Their reasoning is that its a 4+ ward save on S3, And most things have a higher strength. Indeed, if you put it on a hero with a good armor save, it makes him nigh invulnerable. If its S3, he has a 1+ or 2+ armor save and a 3-(4+) ward save. And if its S5 then its a 3+ or 4+ armor save, and a 5-(2+) ward save. So, anything that can kill him gets him a massive ward save. I managed to take out Tyron with a lord using that. Then again, he also had killing blow, but he would have died long before if not for that.

Basically, the question is if 35 points is really a good point cost for what will effectively be a 4+ or better ward save.

[Layne]

You don't get a wardsave against combat resolution. You don;t get wardsave against panic checks. There are many ways to destroy the Pendant Lord, not many involve trying to hit the elf himself, but there are many ways. Dark Elves are cheaper than ever, but still expensive. Our enemies have many options.

It's fair alright. You take it in context. Personally I don't intend to use the thing, as I play MSU mostly and don't expect that combat resolution will generally be in my favour.

[Seanzala]

I used it when the book first came out, as did most people when they read it. The thing is, he's not invincible. As Arnold said, there are many ways to deal with him. My favourite way of getting rid of him however is still Creeping Death. 3D6 S2 no armour save. My opponent was spewing when I pulled that one out.

[Schlorgadorb]

well... if you stick him on a dark steed, or a cold one on his own, challenging heroes, give him the Dagger of Hotek and Potion of Strength, then he's pretty nasty. Or just stick him on a dragon.

The fact is, most sides get a 4+ ward save for 45 points, This save is almost always gonna be effectively 4+ or better, and its ten points cheaper. Sure, combat resolution can kill him, but that hero doesn't go in a unit. Or he goes on the flank of a unit of cold one knights, taking the first shot from a bolt thrower, or taking a cannon shot head on. There are many ways to make him annoying.

I dunno... I should probably be arguing against this, but I just can't shake the feeling like its a little overpowered.

[Western elf]

It's underpriced for no good reason, so it's dodgy. I might use it on a wizard lord (no armour), but not on anything else.

[Master of arneim]

In my opinion it's the most overpowered item in the whole game. I didn't use it yet, and even if it's true that there are some ways (not many) to take the dreadlord out, this item remains ubercheesy. Panic checks? At Ld 10? Creeping death is still a spell that need a casting roll and must be generated, combat resolutions? Here is the Bg... I think the limits are with T tests and fear (when not in a bg). Others are insignificant.

Fair? It is surely fair, because it's written in the rules :-)

I think that this item will return on earth when will come out the new chaos and other armies. The main weakness of this amulet is that doesn't protect from T tests and there will be a lot of those with new book coming out.

[Arhain cynath]

In my opinion it's the most overpowered item in the whole game

lol just wait a bit for the Chaos Warriors army book, the pendant is not cheasy compared to theirs ^^ (as always)

I stop the "out of topic"

[Milney]

I love the fact that someone jumps in and says "It's the most overpowered item in the whole game" and then without even pausing for breath utters the immortal words "I didn't use it yet".

By that very admission you make your opinion no more than what it is - unsubstantiated opinion.

There are so many ways to overcome the pendant, which can only protect one model.

Different? Yes.
Challenging? Definately.
Incredibly useful? Without a doubt!

Unfair? Not in the slightest.

Thank **** that GW has decided to actually make a stand against the mentality of "The higher strength the better!" that has taken hold. How many Lords do you see actually using things like a 'Sword and Board' or Additional Hand Weapons over a Great Weapon/Lance when dismounted/mounted respectively? WHFB was dangerously slipping in the direction of "If it's not S5+ then it's useless!".

However the DE book shows where they were going (perhaps a bit heavy handidly, but moving none-the-less). Changes to Black Guard and Executioners, made for once, the multiple low strength attack unit preferable to the single high strength attack unit. Pendant means that now lower strength attacks are more deadly than higher strength attacks. This can only be a good thing.

[Crawd]

Wait for the 20 points banner that gives a unit that roll a 1 or a double an insane courage on a break test and that the whole army rule is a reroll break test.. oh wait... it's in the warrior of chaos.

[Layne]

Also, this is in no way a Tactics discussion. A Tactics discussion on the same subject would be something along the lines of 'How do I beat the Pendant?', or "How will they beat my Pendant?'. Which would, by the by, be a much more useful thread.

So I'm kabooting it to Druchii Discussion.

And this, the day after I posted the one and only rule for the Tactics forum.

[Ehakir]

During the previous edition my way of beating enemy lords was to flank the unit they were in with some knights or something, and to send them home by CR. Shocking that some other armies that are accostumed to just smacking any lord that stands in their way have to use this tactic now as well

[Master of arneim]

I love the fact that someone jumps in and says "It's the most overpowered item in the whole game" and then without even pausing for breath utters the immortal words "I didn't use it yet".

By that very admission you make your opinion no more than what it is - unsubstantiated opinion.

Mmmm... I really didn't used the Bloodthirster in this edition, but it's truly an enemy that we can easily call "impressive" and quite without edge or isn't it?

I've never used a double steam tank, but I think that it is really broken, or isn't it?

I didn't used the "doom siren", but surely it can cause a damage that isn't equalized to the 25 pts of that gift, isn't it?

That doesn't mean I don't know what we're talking about. If I didn't use it, it doesn't mean that I'm not aware of the capabilities of this item. Is it needed to make some "curriculum" of my knowledge in the subject? Should I say that "yes, I played against it some times (just a few eh...)" or that I saw some games where the item was involved, or that I gained some other gamers esperiences? Shoul I? Ok, so let's start again:

I never used this item, but I saw many matches where it was involved and I played against it quite a bit, gaining some informations and comments from other players... so:

In my opinion it's the most overpowered item in the whole game. I didn't use it yet, and even if it's true that there are some ways (not many) to take the dreadlord out, this item remains ubercheesy. Panic checks? At Ld 10? Creeping death is still a spell that need a casting roll and must be generated, combat resolutions? Here is the Bg... I think the limits are with T tests and fear (when not in a bg). Others are insignificant.

Fair? It is surely fair, because it's written in the rules :-)

I think that this item will return on earth when will come out the new chaos and other armies. The main weakness of this amulet is that doesn't protect from T tests and there will be a lot of those with new book coming out.

[Zulu]

The pendant is nice and cheesy, but something needs to be cheesy when our weapons are... not so cheesy!

[Phierlihy]

While it's fine to ask a player not to field something because you really dislike it, that should not become a hard and fast policy for any gaming group. I dislike Steam Tanks, Speculums, Organ Guns and Vampires that can raise dead into combat. It's fine to have a one off game and ask for something but the wish list of things people think should and should not be tweaked for balance purposes would be long, unwieldy, and downright un-fun. It's a great item but oddly enough I still lose to Vampires and Demons even when I wear it. Hmm, funny that. I would not take it to every game just as I would not take Harpy-spam to every game. But I certainly won't ban them simply because it's a good tactic.

[Riker666]

A normal ward save protects against any kind of wound, this only against strenght based attacks.

A lord with Pendant and a good armour is hard to wound, but usually you can mow everyone around him (or beneath him) to score some good acr.

I'll add that most armies have more than a ward save, to protect more characters. We only have the pendant and an overcosted 70 points black amulet as wards, combined tith t3 and barded mounts with stupidity.

Comparing the pendant to a double steamtank or a bloodthirster is not a good idea

[The buoyancy of water]

Thank **** that GW has decided to actually make a stand against the mentality of "The higher strength the better!" that has taken hold. How many Lords do you see actually using things like a 'Sword and Board' or Additional Hand Weapons over a Great Weapon/Lance when dismounted/mounted respectively? WHFB was dangerously slipping in the direction of "If it's not S5+ then it's useless!".

I have to disagree with you and say that it is easier for opponents to deal with the Pendant using high strength attacks rather then low strength one. To explain:

Most lord setups involving the Pendant include a 1+ armour save as well. Now, with low strength attacks (S1-4) it's roughly 50-50 on whether you even wound, then there's the 2+ armour save, then a 6-3+ ward save. With high stregth, you have a better chance to wound followed by a reduced armour save then the 2+ ward save. So from S5 onwards the higher the strength the better. With many characters having S5 (vamps, daemon, Tomb Kings) to start with, it is in their interest to have a lance/great weapon. I know I would rather hit a Pendant lord with S7 instead of S3-5...

Unless it's a sorceress with the Pendant. But there was a recent article on here that discussed the disadvantage of that...

Cheers,
Dave

[Master of arneim]

Comparing the pendant to a double steamtank or a bloodthirster is not a good idea

I'm not comparing those to the ward save, but probably the phrase wasn't clear. The discussion showed that it could be possible make a comment even if something is not used because there are other ways to understand its capabilities and potential and was an answer to clarify my opinion.

[Dainis_silentblade]

yes I think so as it means we have something that compares and can combat stupidly powerful vampirelords and greater demons

[Lethalis]

Calling a single item cheesy is showcasing a blatant disregard for intra-army balancing and therefore a lack of understanding of how the game works. For example, it may balance out the fact that from the brave Dark Elf warrior to the battle-hardened Black Guard to the cruel Dreadlords, almost our entire army has T3. It may be due to the fact that the Dark Elves can hardly have full control of the movement of their troops due to Hatred, Frenzy and Stupidity. It may even be simply due to the fact that the Dark Elves have no über magic weapon or any item which protects against miscasts.

The book gave and took away. The playtesters and game designers felt that its current price was appropriate and if your friend wants you to double its cost you can tell him that that is in fact cheating. Of course you can always settle on a house rule where something of his gets doubled in price too though I would pick something that doesn't have much effect on the game, much like the Pendant.

I am getting so tired of people trying to blame the other army instead of trying to be a good/become a better general. The very least he could do is actually have a go against it, not even trying it... meh, I'll refrain from insulting your opponent's intelligence further.

[Dainis_silentblade]

personally if I was facing a general with the pendent tie him up either with a cheap unit for a couple of turns or charge him with a unit of coldones and then break him and his unit and run them down.

[Shrike]

The Pendant is very fair if you play it as failing on a 1 like other ward saves. It's probably not how it was meant to be played, but it is one way that some people do play it, so if you do that you can keep it for 35 points and give opponents a fair chance at killing your Lord mano-e-elfo.

Considering it's more expensive than the Annoying of Netlings which does basically count as a 3+ ward in challenges, it's not even that bad to begin with.

[Rork]

I suspect the pendant will go the way of the Black Amulet.

For the new guys amongst us, let us step back in time...

4th ed Black Amulet.
Now, back in these days characters could take X (e.g. 3 for a lord) magic items. The BA then was available to all, 50pts and rebounded wounds on 4+.

5th ed Black Amulet.
GW got wise to the fact that everyone and their wife took it. Same save, same points, but any rolls of a 1 on a save dice exhausted the item.

6th ed Black Amulet.
Same points, worse save (5+) and no good against ranged attacks. A slight improvement as long as you put your man in a unit.

7th ed Black Amulet.
Back to its 4th ed incarnation. But relatively speaking, its cost relative to a Lord's magic item allowance is equivalent to taking up two magic item slots in 4th ed.

OK, so it's a long time before a new DE book. But in the grand scheme of things, if the pendant comes out too much the next book will ensure it doesn't. Granted, that doesn't say a lot for stable army design but the pendant means you have to be cocky to take it out.

It seems apt that you should take out a pendant-wearing Dark Elf with indirect means .

[Saithis]

there is a big difference Rork: ward saves are allowed in the current edition... (maybe it's just the translation - but when i am reading that it's clear that only armoursaves are ignored!)
they were not from 5-6; never played the 4th so i can't comment on that.

but when i see that "everything" has a special save it is VERY temptating to use the much cheaper pendant, save some points and get a magic weapon or whatever u want...

in fact the new black amulet is not bad - but with the pendant option it just sucks
guess the bookwriters were drunk when making the current items... at least this would explain a lot

[Thomus darkblade]

Calling a single item cheesy is showcasing a blatant disregard for intra-army balancing and therefore a lack of understanding of how the game works. For example, it may balance out the fact that from the brave Dark Elf warrior to the battle-hardened Black Guard to the cruel Dreadlords, almost our entire army has T3. It may be due to the fact that the Dark Elves can hardly have full control of the movement of their troops due to Hatred, Frenzy and Stupidity. It may even be simply due to the fact that the Dark Elves have no über magic weapon or any item which protects against miscasts.

Quoted for truth. No single magic item can truly be "cheesy"
My main complaint is that there is no other ward saves to compete against it. The black amulet is good, but stupidly expensive, and the talisman of protection is hardly worth taking.

The solution? Take the amulet on any character that you would want a ward save on. Sure it's good. But there's only one of them, and it's on a toughness 3 elf in a toughness three unit. Kill the elves and run him down. I'm really suprised that people are still bemoaning this item. It's nowhere near on par with 2 steamtanks or Siren song or whatever "cheesy" thing people want to compare it to.

The Elf is not going to die. Work around that. At least it's not doing 6d3 s6 impact hits, or sucking your ultrahammer unit into an anvil unit where it will be stalled and killed. It's just going to take some hits and throw out maybe 4 s6 attacks.

[Desert icon]

Aren't there like 10 threads already saying the same thing? Methinks a little exploration of the "search" option is in due order!

I think your friends are suffering from an affliction that affects everybody whose book is not getting an update... I believe the layman's term is jealousy!

They probably just refuse to accept that the item can be circumvented because it helps to lower the effect of their uber-nasty characters of doom. They're most likely just fixated on that one and only point, and say it's cheesy because they feel they have less superiority.

In my opinion, this item is far from cheesy by all the reasons stated before!

1. It only works against attacks with a strength value; anything else has no problem getting through to your soft, tiny elf! Even then, it's only really effective against anything with high strength... something like a good, old-fashioned Scraplauncher, with its killing blow, low strength, large template attack would be hilarious in this situation!

2. The character can be overwhelmed by CR! No force in the Warhammer world can save a character from that! I believe someone mentioned Black Guard as a way to circumvent this... well, you're wrong! Although they can certainly hold their own in combat, and are very nasty in CC with said Pendant, they die very, very quickly to shooting (as does most of the dark elf army!).

3. Throw a LOT of attacks at him, preferrably those that ignore armor saves. There is only so much the Pendant can do before the small elf in the big suit goes poof!

4. He can be ignored completely! Redirection using hatred's key disadvantage is very possible, and if you know what you're doing you can just keep it out of any important combats for the entire game!

Any other such reasons are just as valid.

Quite possibly the most valid argument of all for using it is the simple fact that it's there! No amount of complaining or moaning about cheese will change the fact that it's in the rulebook. You don't have to use it even if it is obviously advantageous for the price.

Then again, if your opponents refuse to play with you if you're using something that gives you an advantage, then you're probably better off finding new opponents!