A rant and a question

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Bloodyangel
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A rant and a question

Post by Bloodyangel »

So the Druchii have been updated for a while now, and I'm very, very pleased with the new book. I've been playing them faithfully since 5th edition, and I have to say, the dreary days of 6th edition were dark times for my beloved elves. But now we have our new book and are quite good, and all is well...

So why do I get so many complaints?

I don't know about the rest of you here on d.net, but I get a boat load of complaints about my new book. This is cheese and that is "retarded" and so on. The biggest complainer is an empire player who is fairly new to the game. I've done everything I can to help him learn how to play his force, what to do, what not to do... and so on. He refuses to listen to advice, then makes stupid mistakes, then gets upset and blames me for not warning him because I know the game better. He also is itching to play a pure empire magic-heavy gunline, but is hesitant because he knows how harsh some of the people we play with are on gunline cheese.

It's getting quite frustrating to hear him complain everytime I play him. If I hear him complain one more time that my mounts have hatred, I may lose it. You don't think animals can be angry, hateful, vicious and evil? You've never met my cat then. You don't like that your infantry block can't charge me when I run out of your LOS? Play beasts of chaos, or wood elves. A whole army with skirmisher 360 LOS. You're upset because my mages are nastier than yours? They cost twice as many points!

I was just wondering if anyone else was getting this kind of hate-spew over the update. Have we been a sub-par army for so long that now people can't stand to see us become competitive? I don't really think my list is cheesy. Not as bad by far as it could be. I don't remember the exact point-costs, but here's the list I use most often.

Dreadlord on Dragon
Crimson Death, Armor of Darkness, Pendant of Kaeleth

Sorceress Lv. 2 on Dark Steed (Rides with one of the 3 Dark Rider units)
Dispel Scroll x2

Sorceress Lv. 2 (Usually hangs with the shades, unless they deploy as scouts)
Tome of Furion, Lifetaker

3 units of Dark Riders with Crossbows and a musician

5 Harpies

2 Cold One Chariots

5 Cold One Knights w/ full command and the Standard of Slaughter

7 Shades with Great Weapons

War Hydra


I like the list... it's fast and hits remarkably hard... it has redundant units that fill the same purpose, so I'm not boned if a cannon pastes one of my chariots. I don't flood the board with harpies... I don't have an uber-deathstar unit. The whole army moves well, hits hard, and has some shooting and magic for effect. I think it's a great all-comers list. It moves fast and hits hard.

What do you all think? I personally think he's full of it. This IS the man who is looking for an excuse to add a steam tank and popemobile to his force. I just write it up to his lack of knowing what he's doing. His armies tend to not work together well, as he doesn't build it to work together properly. I try to help him, but get an irritated "I can do it", then complaints when he can't. Is this sort of complaining common, or do I just play with a jerk?
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Post by Rabidnid »

looks fine to me. I wouldn't run the dragon as they are very much free points to people who can deal with them and game breaking for people who can't, but other than that there is nothing that nasty about your list.
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Post by Victor simic »

Most of my opponents have taken the new look Druchii well enough.

Some good humoured but consistent complaints have been :

A High Elf player who could not BELIEVE that his Dragon Lord (whose combined Attacks with his Dragon amounted to about a million Strength 7 Attacks) could only Wound my Dreadlord on a Dark Steed if I rolled a `6`on my Ward Save. He HATED the Pendant of Kaeleth. Many other opponents have expressed their absolute scorn and loathing for the PoK. Sucko.

A Vampire Counts player who could not BELIEVE the strength of the Attacks, nasty Breath Weapon, amount of Wounds, Skirmisher Movement, Armour Save, and cheapness of points of my War Hydra. Sucko.

A Wood Elves player who could not BELIEVE it every time I re-rolled rolls to Hit for Hatred in the first round of Combat. He also could not believe the damage that my Armour Piercing Rxb bolts did to his lightly armoured Glade Guard. Now he`s not the only one that can shred other armies in the shooting phase. Sucko.

There are a few other whinges out there, but most opponents cop it sweet.

The main gripes appear to be the PoK, War Hydra, and from High Elf players in particular...the ASF Banner. They cannot BELIEVE that my Black Guard can actually strike BEFORE thier beloved Swordmasters !

To all of them I say...

SUCKO !!! :twisted:
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Post by Jshirey »

He sounds like a jerk. Have you ever played him with another list? If so what was the result?
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Post by Bloodyangel »

I have. I play a warbands campaign with him, and he's constantly griping about this and that. I'm getting really sick of hearing "I'm sorry, but mounts should not have hatred. It's retarded." In truth, he's just a pretty terrible player. I try to be nice and help him, since he's new and a friend of mine... but it's frustrating.

My warband list is just my normal list stripped down. It's three dark rider units, one with crossbows and one without. One chariot, one unit of knights, and some harpies. My master in that has a full suit of normal armor and weapons, and the ring of hotek, to deal with the two players who run mages in their warband. She rides with one of the Dark riders. I often kick his butt with this list too... the worst I've ever done is a draw.

His main problem is his inability to make an army that works well with itself. He nearly always plays pretty heavy on shooting and magic... but has no idea how to defend a mage from horrible death. He often puts his Lv. 4 mage with pistolers or handgunners... then is shocked and annoyed when I focus what shooting I have on that unit. He makes large, expensive infantry blocks, but doesn't support them well enough to avoid out-maneuvering and flank-charges. He seems to think a unit of swordsmen with a detachment of halberdiers is all the defense he needs to protect his fragile shooters, and more often than not, I will just run around or over them... or combo-charge them to death. I've told him to deploy in a refused-flank to cover himself... and I've even showed him how it's done, but he complains and insists that he do it himself... than complains when I flank charge his greatswords with CoK and a chariot and they auto-break from fear. Something I've warned him about in the past...

Mostly, I'm just getting sick of the bitching.
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Post by Zardock »

Well, no one can say you haven't tried mate. You even told him a method in which to prevent an auto break flank charge.

If he complains one more time, just tell him straight, that if he wants to get better he should listen to your advice because you know how to play.

If he is going to be stubborn enough to think he knows best when he is new to the game, then maybe you should stop playing him for a couple of weeks.
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Post by Kefka »

My question is, is he like this with other players, or just you? And is he younger, a teenager, or older? I can excuse a kid or young teenager, but anyone 15/16 or older i can't.
But Zardock is right, just leave him alone for awhile, unless he wants to play you. Maybe he will grow a little, maybe he wont. Worst case scenario is that he doesn't grow up, then you only play him when you have to.
Another thing to help him "mature" is to get him into a tournament. not U.K. GT or anything hard like that, even a small tournament where you evaluate your opponents sportsmanship will do. It might be a kick in the pants, but hopefully a helpful one.
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Post by Bloodyangel »

He complains about my other friends who play Brets and beastmen too... So I'm just writing it off to him being a sore loser. Granted, our beastmen player IS an obnoxious rules lawyer who irritates ALL of us with it... but the Bret player is even newer to the game, and he has a decent win streak and is a good sport about the whole thing. I'm just guessing that all the hate comes from our empire player's impressive number of losses. If he would sit down with someone and listen... or even go online and ask for help... he might not blow so much.

I need to drag him to a store somewhere, and let him speak to another Empire player about what they do. Maybe he'll take advice from a non opponent.

Oh, and Kefka... I could only WISH he was a kid. My whole group is in our mid-twenties or higher, and he's the oldest one of us. He's just a little.... odd.
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Post by Blackfel »

Age really doesn't have much to do with being a good sportsman. I have a friend who plays Orcs and Goblins, and he whines all the time. He's 40 years old, so you would think that he would know better, but whenever he loses he gets visibly upset.

What makes it even funnier to me actually is that when he wins he's a right bastard about it. He becomes more than a little smug, and loves to point out what you did wrong against him. Don't even think about doing that to him though...he'd absolutely explode.

The worst comes when he's winning for four rounds only to have victory snatched away from him in the last two rounds. Heaven help you then!

Other than that, he's a great guy. It's just that he doesn't handle the competition aspect of Warhammer very well. I just put it down to him being overly competitive and leave it at that.
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Post by Notts »

DE are not in the same league as VC and DoC, but the book is certainly stronger than the Empire one, although obviously this can be mitigated by generalship, or the dice gods.

Tell him to stop being a biatch.
Either that, or take a Waltar and Stank.
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Re: A rant and a question

Post by Fr0 »

Well, based off your story I believe the guy that complains is a noob and needs to learn to play, that's step #1 for everyone. You can't blame the opponent's army for your own mistakes. Your list isn't nearly as broken as it could be, but I actually like the list you've made. I'd probably stop playing with him if he kept complaining like that. Tell him to make better lists as he sees fit, ie 2 stanks, gunline, and massive amounts of magic. Empire can make some of the hardest lists imo, and should really bite their tongues. :P

Seriously, find another opponent. He's looking to blame you for his suck. :lol:
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Post by Loki »

I would have to say that my friends mainly complained about the Pendant and the Hydra. That lasted until a unit of Grave Guard managed to run them both down in the same game (Terrible luck, please don't ask).

Now for business. I know you put an Army List in your post, but since this seems to be turning out to be more of a discussion on complaints about the list. Therefore, I'm moving this to Druchii Discussion. PM me if you have questions.
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Post by Cathel »

Don't the Empire players have something like Druchii.net? Tell him to get over to that place and start reading.
As of your description of the situation I would also say you did your best.

The players I am playing with in a small campaign are rather astonished what we can do with the new book. But I haven't heard any complaining about it yet.
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Post by Borog »

I have a friend who is not a very strong player and he has a tendency to whine a bit. But mostly he goes on about my good rolls on the dice and is otherwise fairly sportsmanlike.

But he has complained about the PoK and the hydra, as do most people I think. The think he complained the most of was the fact that assassins don't take up heroslots. He tried to make me use them as heroes, but I said I disagree and he accepted.
The point about assassins not being a hero-choice is not because it can be exploited, hordes of assassins is not a game-winner. The point is that the opponent has no way of finding out how many I may have. So the rule is not unbalanced. I think it's mostly because he plays HE and really wants ASF. :P
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Post by Rugi »

Just about everyone whines about the PoK and hydra. I totally understand them but hey, every army has something that makes other players complaining, siren song being the worst.

BloodyAngel:

It´s hard to explain to a begginer that gunlines and dragons are not the way to start, because they won´t learn much, but you have to do it. But if you constantly use your dragon, 3 dark riders and some harpies against a begginer I can really imagine how weak he feels against you.
My advice is to bring a more balanced force next time you play him. That should make the game a lot more friendly and if you win in the end, he would see that even the balanced armies can pack a punch.
After you master the all around army you really master the cheese-fest armies.

Even tough, I do agree that he is a whimp if he constantly complains about everything.

I´m just happy that when I started WH I was the only begginer for 2 or 3 months and played with the veterans all along. I lost my first 11 games!! A player in our club has beaten about 20 times before one game I got lucky. But hey, I liked it because I was learning and today I´m glad about it.

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Post by Langmann »

Rugi wrote:Just about everyone whines about the PoK and hydra. I totally understand them but hey, every army has something that makes other players complaining, siren song being the worst.


I agree.

But if you constantly use your dragon, 3 dark riders and some harpies against a begginer I can really imagine how weak he feels against you.
My advice is to bring a more balanced force next time you play him. That should make the game a lot more friendly and if you win in the end, he would see that even the balanced armies can pack a punch.
After you master the all around army you really master the cheese-fest armies.


I have to agree with that. While this guy does sound like he's whining more than he should, it is hard for noobs to deal with the mobility and hitting power of a Dragon. That can set them off right away. I'd bring a more normal force for a few games so he can get into the swing of things.
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Post by Rob the dark elf »

The people that I have found who complain about the new Dark Elves have tended to be beginners or those who aren't that experienced with the game. One of my friends is much more experienced and plays Demons, when I beat him (only just mind you) he didn't biatch that my army was too good because we had a good game and he started thinking of ways to beat me. All the other guys have started to say that the new Dark Elves are the cheesiest army in the game, despite the fact our group includes a demon player, a chaos player and a Vampire count player.

One thing I've found that helps is to play a few smaller games. Games of 1000 pnts allow you to field a variety of troops but you eliminate the moaning about Uber Lord characters and they don't take as long to play. That way you can play more games and it allows the new players to try new tactics and units and offers them more gaming experience.
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Post by Rugi »

more experienced and plays Demons, when I beat him (only just mind you) he didn't biatch that my army was too good

Well daemon players are the one who really should not complain about anything.
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Post by Bloodyangel »

I understand the ideas about not playing a dragon against a new player, and to be fair, I didn't. I've been playing the guy in warbands games for quite a while before HE asked to upgrade to 2000 points. And I had just finished painting up my swanky new dragon model, so I brought it. Most of his complaints aren't at the big lizard, but at the fact that my mounts have hatred, and that I get to him so quickly... in warbands. He's had little complaint about the dragon, since he managed to blow it up in one volley of a Helblaster once... and few about the hydra for roughly the same reason. He mostly just doesn't cover himself well, and has easily exploitable gaps and flaws in his set up and list that I try to point out, but that he refuses to listen to me on.

I've only brought the dragon against him in two games, and he's never complained about it. In fact, he aims for it like mad with his war machines. He complains about things that are basic parts of the game. The fact that elven horses move 9 instead of 8... that we have higher initiative... that our mounts have hatred... etc etc. I've pointed out that I don't complain about HIS army perks, like the Str 4 armor piercing shooting, or the detachment rules, or so on... but every time I charge him I have to hear about how "retarded" my horses or cold ones having hatred is, and it's getting quite annoying. I'm honestly thinking of making a demon list one of these days and showing him what REAL high powered armies are like. Not even cheeseing them much, just playing a normal demon list and showing him how much worse it could be to face an entire army that doesn't break or panic and has a 5+ ward.
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Post by Zzug »

Sounds like you got a natural born complainer there. He doesn't even whine about all the stuff he should be. Seriously, hatred n mounts? I think my cold ones have killed maybe 3 models in 4 games. But maybe you got some really nasty cold ones.

I seriously wouldn't play him anymore, I would tell him to his face that he complains to much and is no fun to play with, and every army has it's tactics that have to be dealt with as well as cheesy items or rules.
The daemon list wouldn't help though. He would complain about you as a player then, not your army. (though my suggestion might not put you in his good graces either).
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Post by Thomus darkblade »

Why not bust out the imperial hatred cavalry army! Empire has a lot of access to hatred themselves with warrior priests. Show him he's got his own hatred horses! maybe then he won't be so inclined to complain about them.
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Post by Martialartist »

I know someone like this rather TOO well, and have to live with them 24/7 due to unfortunate circumstances.

Sounds slightly different but still similar in manner.

If he is going to be really whiney and complain about everything, and so negative that as soon as one model dies then the "whole game sucks and its not fair etc.", JUST STOP PLAYING WITH HIM!!!! If he really DOES want to play the game, he will have to learn the hard way that no one wants to play with a whinger. Most likely I'd say he doesn't even really want to play Warhammer for the sake of playing a game and having fun, but more likely just to give him one more thing to complain and act like a spoiled brat about. So don't give him the opportunity to.

Anyway, that's just my advice from MANY years of experience....

Thomus Darkblade wrote:Why not bust out the imperial hatred cavalry army! Empire has a lot of access to hatred themselves with warrior priests. Show him he's got his own hatred horses! maybe then he won't be so inclined to complain about them.


Nothing personal here, but I really wouldn't recommend this. You will probably still beat him, and that will give him even more reason to complain "See, even if I get the same stuff as you, I still can't win, its so unfair. And my horses suck they didn't even do anything."

Again, just speaking from experience here.

Kefka wrote:And is he younger, a teenager, or older? I can excuse a kid or young teenager, but anyone 15/16 or older i can't.


@Kefka: Never judge someone immediately by their age (would you immediately judge someone because of their gender or skin colour?), instead you should get to know them and then judge them by their maturity. People who are 40 but act like they are 10, should be treated like they are 10, while those who are 10, but act like they are 40, should be treated as such. On the other hand, you do have to keep their age in mind, so remember (but not use as a preconception) such things as you deal with them, but this is mostly only relevant when age = maturity (such as a 3 year old having a tantrum over not getting the colour cup they want), which is not always the case.

As such, I would change your idea above to fit something more like this, "if his maturity is rather low, keep this in mind and be patient and try with him, but if that doesn't work then maybe its better to let him grow up a little before continuing to play with him. If his maturity is higher, but such incidences continue, then maybe you need to reconsider your evaluation of him."

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Post by Bloodyangel »

He's just a whiner. In any game that he does well, I don't hear much complaints... but in games he's losing, then suddenly everything blows.

I'm breaching the storm though... and finally getting the man to see reason and build his lists better. That, or he's just figured it out on his own. No, one unit of 15 greatswords in an all knights and pistolers warband are not a good idea. No, putting a level 2 mage in a unit of 5 unarmored handgunners is a sure route to a panic check early on. Etc etc. I've been telling him this for a long while, and he's finally doing a bit better. So hopefully, things have gotten past the worst part.

He does still seem to want to play a steam tank gunline though... :roll:
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Post by Kefka »

MartialArtist wrote:
Kefka wrote:And is he younger, a teenager, or older? I can excuse a kid or young teenager, but anyone 15/16 or older i can't.


@Kefka: Never judge someone immediately by their age (would you immediately judge someone because of their gender or skin colour?),


I know people have varying maturity levels despite how old they are. I just wanted to get a feel of how old the person was to better deal with them. I wasn't saying ALL kids are immature and whiny, but there are many who get upset when they lose. And I would deal with an adult with low maturity much different that a child with low maturity, as they should know better.
I fail too see how you would gather that I am racist or sexist from that too... and am a little insulted that you would think that, as I try to be as unbiased as I can.

Glad to hear that the guy is turning around though. However slowly it may be. I bet in a year you'll look back and say to him "remember when you wanted that gunline list but called me cheesy?" and he'll laugh with you.
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Post by Mistr moon »

I'm gonna agree with rugi, I dont think there is anyhting wrong with your list for a competitive game but against a newbie an all dark rider for your core list is brutal.
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