Hi,
I have played 40K for a while, and finally have ventured into the land of Warhammer Fantasy, and chose an army totally different to my 40K (IG/DH). I was leaning towards the new Lizardmen. But the new cold ones sold me on the DE. So this is my first Warhamer Fantasy post.
I have the DE book, battalion box (and I think my wife bought a few other bits :-) ). And will be getting the Warhammer rules when I get close to a GW store.
The local club is trying out skirmish rules with the following basic army list rules:
Composition:
250 points selected from you army rule book.
No rare units.
You must have three unit champions/heros.
I like this idea, as I can get playing fairly quickly.
Opposition is most likely: Chaos Daemon, Empire, Bretonian, High Elf, Goblins, Orks.
So could you please give me some advise on, what do I need, and what should I paint up first to get a 250 point force (on the way to bigger and better). Any advise would be much appreciated. I do not care too much about winning, but do not mind being annoying to the all power lists. Being a walk-over is, however, not fun.
An aside question as well: why do so few lists not inlcude Cold One knights?
Advice on starting out with 250pts
Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights
-
Brokenstone
- Cold One Knight
- Posts: 243
- Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:03 pm
- Location: Queensland, Australia
So you have up to 250 points, that kind of limits a lot of options, and no rares is obvious, you won't be able to do much more than a couple of extremely small groups, perhaps something that would be a good start for everything at that cost could be just 5 dark riders, not sure if there is value in using them to bait with a musician at this scale, then a squad of 5 harpies and a squad of spearmen, that covers the initial troop choices, and you can adjust the number of spearmen according to how much extra you spend on the dark riders. Gives you super maneuverable options early, but probably lacks in real hitting power without any characters yet.
I have a question though, the 3 Champions/heros, is that a minimum or maximum, it isn't really clear in your description. But you could get a standard and 2 unit champs in there, but it would restrict the size of the spearmen uni dramatically, and really restrict having that unit of harpies at all. Maybe I am misunderstanding. But in my mind those 3 units would be a pretty stable building block to start with.
Also in regards to so few lists having no Cold One Knights, i think it may be your use of english, but if you are asking why so few lists have Knights, then its because people find them expensive or are wary of Stupidity, If you are actually saying that you find them in so many lists, then yeah, they rock.
I have a question though, the 3 Champions/heros, is that a minimum or maximum, it isn't really clear in your description. But you could get a standard and 2 unit champs in there, but it would restrict the size of the spearmen uni dramatically, and really restrict having that unit of harpies at all. Maybe I am misunderstanding. But in my mind those 3 units would be a pretty stable building block to start with.
Also in regards to so few lists having no Cold One Knights, i think it may be your use of english, but if you are asking why so few lists have Knights, then its because people find them expensive or are wary of Stupidity, If you are actually saying that you find them in so many lists, then yeah, they rock.
-
Enfant terrible
- Cold One Knight
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:15 pm
- Location: In the proximity of Ghrond
For 250pts (even if I don't remember all of the rules for skirmishing games). I'd look into getting some warriors (simply because they are cheap), Black Guards (because they bare awesome) and maybe also som Executioners?
With regards to the CoK's I usually leave them ou of my lists due to stupidity - I more often than not run fragile armies that tend to react badly to too many random factors (such as stupidity)
With regards to the CoK's I usually leave them ou of my lists due to stupidity - I more often than not run fragile armies that tend to react badly to too many random factors (such as stupidity)
"... Why so serious? ..."
-
Enfant terrible
- Cold One Knight
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:15 pm
- Location: In the proximity of Ghrond
-
Enfant terrible
- Cold One Knight
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:15 pm
- Location: In the proximity of Ghrond
I like to play skirmisher rules with my sons.
I know well most of the armies you plan to face:
Empire, Bretonian, High Elf, Goblins.
But not Chaos Daemon nor Orks.
Skirmishers patrols rules are very good to play with if you want to practice such or such unit in a small environment.
There you can learn about some tactics and how to make a good use of your troops.
However, the game is very, very unbalanced.
After many games at home with my sons, we added some homerules:
Homerule:
No magic nor shooting for the initial 250 pts patrol.
When you upgrade the patrol, you can add shooting and magic as you wish.
If you find out that magic and shooting betrays too much the patrol spirit, I recommend you suggested these homerules to your club.
With that, skirmish patrols are really enjoyable... and quick.
The roleplaying spirit that goes along with is real fun.
The armies you'll face:
Goblins have great advantages:
their magic is so cheap that they can take 2 sorceress and easily kill everything with it. Besides that, they can take an incredible amount of 3pts gobs, there is no way you can kill them all, and with combat resolution & rank bonus, you'll loose unless you kill 6 of them...
They have short range shooting which is unexpensive and as accurate as Empire.
Their squigs are very dangerous... for all armies including themselves.
I a convinced that this is the most fearsome army to face with skirmisher rules.
Empire can take a very limited number of unkillable chivalry (armor save 1). Their heroes are really excellent for 74pts (when I play empire, I take of them along with 2x2 knights). Besides that, they can do marvels with pistoliers.
Bretonians can take a 3-pegasus knight unit, impossible to catch with 20"-360° mobility. However, if they take the pegasus hero, he is somehow limited in armor and can be defeated easily (provided you survived the charge).
High Elf and DE are the one least often seen among the armies that could play in my home.
The reason is that they are too fragile.
Their heroes are really too expansive, so are their troops.
I tried to thing about a skirmisher druchii patrol with the precious edition army book.
As a hero, you could take either a mounted Master (cunning, of course), or a sorceress (magician, obviously) or an assassin (psychopath, needless to say).
It is not feasible to have 2 heroes (too expansive).
0 hero (taking a unit champion instead) is probably a wiser option but less roleplaying and hence less fun. Remember, you can take as leader a unit champion even if your unit is only 2 or 3 elven strong.
I found out that a unit of 3 harpies is a must-have:
20"-360° movement/charge are unvaluable.
Unless you dislike the models, go and buy at least 3 of them (you can have only 1 flying unit with the skirmish rules). For real games, you'll apreciate a lot to have 5-6 available so it is a really good investment.
DR with MXB are a very, very good unit... unless facing shooting or magic, which makes them die very quickly. I would recommend them only if playing my suggested homerules (buy them MXB later).
Corsairs and warriors have a good value for the points.
Warriors (always with shields) are good played defensively, in big blocks (so as to benefit from the 2 row's lances and to get rank bonus). Take the musician, the champ and the standard as soon as possible.
Corsairs are to be used in very small units of 3 each. You'll play them aggressively, in a style known as MSU (multiple small units), which is a playstyle characteristic of Druchii.
There you will learn how to coordinate them and arrange simultaneous charge on front and side, how to tease and flee so as to get a flank charge.
I'd recommand them with 2 weapons, altohough one or two handbows corsairs are really fun (in future large games, make them 10).
MXB-men are really good. Take them by small units of 3. Shield is recommended but not mandatory.
In your box, you have some COK.
I tried them in patrols.
The problem is their price. You don't get many of them.
They are slower than any other cavalry (and sometimes stupid).
They are vulnerable to magic.
I believe that they are frustrating to play with. I'd recommend not to take them.
I know well most of the armies you plan to face:
Empire, Bretonian, High Elf, Goblins.
But not Chaos Daemon nor Orks.
Skirmishers patrols rules are very good to play with if you want to practice such or such unit in a small environment.
There you can learn about some tactics and how to make a good use of your troops.
However, the game is very, very unbalanced.
After many games at home with my sons, we added some homerules:
Homerule:
No magic nor shooting for the initial 250 pts patrol.
When you upgrade the patrol, you can add shooting and magic as you wish.
If you find out that magic and shooting betrays too much the patrol spirit, I recommend you suggested these homerules to your club.
With that, skirmish patrols are really enjoyable... and quick.
The roleplaying spirit that goes along with is real fun.
The armies you'll face:
Goblins have great advantages:
their magic is so cheap that they can take 2 sorceress and easily kill everything with it. Besides that, they can take an incredible amount of 3pts gobs, there is no way you can kill them all, and with combat resolution & rank bonus, you'll loose unless you kill 6 of them...
They have short range shooting which is unexpensive and as accurate as Empire.
Their squigs are very dangerous... for all armies including themselves.
I a convinced that this is the most fearsome army to face with skirmisher rules.
Empire can take a very limited number of unkillable chivalry (armor save 1). Their heroes are really excellent for 74pts (when I play empire, I take of them along with 2x2 knights). Besides that, they can do marvels with pistoliers.
Bretonians can take a 3-pegasus knight unit, impossible to catch with 20"-360° mobility. However, if they take the pegasus hero, he is somehow limited in armor and can be defeated easily (provided you survived the charge).
High Elf and DE are the one least often seen among the armies that could play in my home.
The reason is that they are too fragile.
Their heroes are really too expansive, so are their troops.
I tried to thing about a skirmisher druchii patrol with the precious edition army book.
As a hero, you could take either a mounted Master (cunning, of course), or a sorceress (magician, obviously) or an assassin (psychopath, needless to say).
It is not feasible to have 2 heroes (too expansive).
0 hero (taking a unit champion instead) is probably a wiser option but less roleplaying and hence less fun. Remember, you can take as leader a unit champion even if your unit is only 2 or 3 elven strong.
I found out that a unit of 3 harpies is a must-have:
20"-360° movement/charge are unvaluable.
Unless you dislike the models, go and buy at least 3 of them (you can have only 1 flying unit with the skirmish rules). For real games, you'll apreciate a lot to have 5-6 available so it is a really good investment.
DR with MXB are a very, very good unit... unless facing shooting or magic, which makes them die very quickly. I would recommend them only if playing my suggested homerules (buy them MXB later).
Corsairs and warriors have a good value for the points.
Warriors (always with shields) are good played defensively, in big blocks (so as to benefit from the 2 row's lances and to get rank bonus). Take the musician, the champ and the standard as soon as possible.
Corsairs are to be used in very small units of 3 each. You'll play them aggressively, in a style known as MSU (multiple small units), which is a playstyle characteristic of Druchii.
There you will learn how to coordinate them and arrange simultaneous charge on front and side, how to tease and flee so as to get a flank charge.
I'd recommand them with 2 weapons, altohough one or two handbows corsairs are really fun (in future large games, make them 10).
MXB-men are really good. Take them by small units of 3. Shield is recommended but not mandatory.
In your box, you have some COK.
I tried them in patrols.
The problem is their price. You don't get many of them.
They are slower than any other cavalry (and sometimes stupid).
They are vulnerable to magic.
I believe that they are frustrating to play with. I'd recommend not to take them.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
Thank you for the advise. Pity about the Cold Ones, they look so cool.
The rules are basically:
250 points selected from your army rule book.
You must have three unit champions/heros.
No rare units.
No Flying.
No ethereal.
You must have three(and only three) unit champions \ heros
Combat
No first turn charges.
Only skirmish models can charge 360 all other models must have a 90 charge arc.
If you flee another unit my not intercept the charger. They are too distracted by the yellow streak visible from corner of their eye.
You can run down but cannot redirect.
Spearmen benefit from the Always Strike First rule in the first round of combat.
There is no falling down rolling around on the ground, you are fighting, fleeing or dead.
Shooting.
Move or shoot models can shoot 360. Turning on the spot does not count as moving.
No -1 to hit individual models.
The rules are basically:
250 points selected from your army rule book.
You must have three unit champions/heros.
No rare units.
No Flying.
No ethereal.
You must have three(and only three) unit champions \ heros
Combat
No first turn charges.
Only skirmish models can charge 360 all other models must have a 90 charge arc.
If you flee another unit my not intercept the charger. They are too distracted by the yellow streak visible from corner of their eye.
You can run down but cannot redirect.
Spearmen benefit from the Always Strike First rule in the first round of combat.
There is no falling down rolling around on the ground, you are fighting, fleeing or dead.
Shooting.
Move or shoot models can shoot 360. Turning on the spot does not count as moving.
No -1 to hit individual models.
With these rules, there is a clear advantage to shooters.
I would like you to clarify which rules you are playing:
can you take smaller units than the minimum stated in the rulebook?
i.e. units of 3 footed or 2 mounted troops?
as allowed in the "patrol" rules?
Otherwise, with 2 units of the bare minimum (10 warriors), you pay already 120pts, leaving only 130pts for a hero or a unit of something else.
Is is so?
If it was the case, the best would be to take one unit of 10 multiple crossbowmen with shield (110pts) and two units of 10 warriors with shields (140 pts), total exactly 250 pts.
Worth playing with, even in bigger armies.
I would like you to clarify which rules you are playing:
can you take smaller units than the minimum stated in the rulebook?
i.e. units of 3 footed or 2 mounted troops?
as allowed in the "patrol" rules?
Otherwise, with 2 units of the bare minimum (10 warriors), you pay already 120pts, leaving only 130pts for a hero or a unit of something else.
Is is so?
If it was the case, the best would be to take one unit of 10 multiple crossbowmen with shield (110pts) and two units of 10 warriors with shields (140 pts), total exactly 250 pts.
Worth playing with, even in bigger armies.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}