So I hear we got this new book

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Shockwave
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So I hear we got this new book

Post by Shockwave »

:D

So I've been out of the game for a while mostly playing Warmachine and Hordes for the past 18+ months and during this time the Dark Elfs have this new book, I brought the spear head when it came out but I haven't really done anything with it, I've read through the book a couple of times but that is about it.

So, a couple of things

I here that the Delfs have parked themselves in the tournament top 10, with a few people saying they are broken. Alot people seems to attribute this to "Deathstars" (It's in the sig's of a few people) I'm not sure what these are but I'm guessing Manbaned Rending Stars.

With the new books (Not just Delfs) special characters seem to be pushed by GW, do they have the same stigma as the did 2+ years ago? I ask because I'm liking Morathi and Lokhir, especially Morathi.

Linked to the above, I'm looking at Morathi, is she really as good as I'm thinking? She is coming across as an almost no brainer if your wanting a Lvl 4.

Do we still play the same way we used to, 2+ DRider units for harrassing, MSU style tactics, looking at a couple of lists here suggests that it does, but sometimes subtle changes to a book and influence big changes on the table. I've played a couple of games of 7th, so i'm aware of the game changes, just not how they apply to us in the new book.

So in the great words of Mister Breaker "You may, enlighten me"
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Morlyn »

-Deathstar: in DE mainly shades, ALOT (theres a couple of topics on them) they dish out +100 shots a shooting round,

-If by stigma you mean not welcome at tournaments, yes, the overall consensus is theyre still not welcome

-Havent used Morathi yet. I think she's good as well, but she hardly ever turns up in any list, most likely because of the tournament ban.

-You see a lot of harpies turning up for harassing and yes, Driders with xbows. Magic heavy appears to be popular, especially sacrificial dagger. Witch elves are hardly ever seen
One of the already well known units is the Black guard with ASF banner which makes a pretty good anvil. The hydra is pretty much a no-brainer.
I hope you feel enlightened :)
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Post by Calisson »

Hi, Shockwave, welcome back to the true Masters of the World.

Compared to the previous edition, DE have become significantly cheaper while most units have been slightly boosted.
The general consensus seems that now DE are in the top tier, just behind Demons and Vampires. They still require skill to play efficiently, but they are not anymore struggling to get a mere draw.

Some of the greatest improvements are:
- hydra are no-brainers
- BG among specials
- harpies are now core, they are taking DR's previous role
- COB is now a mount (not everyone takes some, though)
- Dark magic improved significantly
- assassins are much more viable, and take no hero slot.

Some units have become less popular:
Khainites Exes & WE are the most difficult to play.
Corsairs have not been improved at the same point as warriors.
Chariots are improved but loose the competition for special slots.

If you want to discover some interesting threads about pretty much all units, have a look to the D.R.A.I.C.H., you'll find it on top of the tactics forum.
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Post by No one »

welcome back shockwave,

the shade deathstar is a unit consisting of 50+ shades with GW, a dreadlord, some masters and probably an assasin with killing blow kit, the charactersall have GW and between them they have 3 null shards, the ring of hotek, banner of hag greaf, pendant of kaleath (how do I spell this??) and if you can fit it there the ring of darkness. the unit is nigh immune to magic, in close combat in will kill almost anything and it's shooting is horrible (I probably forgot some things but it's a horror)

Calisson summed it up nicely but I disagree on your harpies point, DR fullfill their roles more reliable then harpies due to their higher LD and they can actually contribute to a combat by flankcharging.
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Post by Amarel »

Hey Shockwave - I'm just coming back, too (took the same sojourn as you, and still playing them both as well, but it's easier to get a WHFB game going in many places I've found).

I'll be attempting to make a semi-competitive list using my Cult of Pleasure army with as few extra's as possible (and a semi-comparable hero setup). So I guess I'll be finding out how well we do with a single Reaper and no Hydra in the Rare Slots, Witch Elves (to replace Devoted) and many Dark Riders :).
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Post by Los manticores »

For me, I think that the DE have alot of different builds/themes that you can play. Magic heavy, shooting heavy, Shade DS, Beastly, Balanced and my fave Khainite. Play them all and see what's the most fun.
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Post by Shockwave »

First up, thanks for the replies so far.

no one wrote:welcome back shockwave,

the shade deathstar is a unit consisting of 50+ shades with GW, a dreadlord, some masters and probably an assasin with killing blow kit, the charactersall have GW and between them they have 3 null shards, the ring of hotek, banner of hag greaf, pendant of kaleath (how do I spell this??) and if you can fit it there the ring of darkness. the unit is nigh immune to magic, in close combat in will kill almost anything and it's shooting is horrible (I probably forgot some things but it's a horror)

Well, this sounds positively boring to play with. I won't be using it, not that I have enough shades.

What is making the Hydra a "no-brainer"? it's new cheaper cost or the S=W of the breath attack?

Morlyn wrote:-If by stigma you mean not welcome at tournaments, yes, the overall consensus is theyre still not welcome

-Havent used Morathi yet. I think she's good as well, but she hardly ever turns up in any list, most likely because of the tournament ban.

I'm not that surprised really, i used to be like that as well, but with Warmachine and Hordes requiring that you use a character i've kind of got past it. Strange though, from what i've seen/ read, the 40k players have gotten over it.
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Dark Alliance »

Dave: stay away from the ****** Deathstar. It's pooh mate!

Welcome back btw.

S'funny...you're just leaving Whoremachine to get back into DEs while I'm going the other way! I've just started the Legion...

Loki Edit: Naughty, naughty DA, lets keep the language straight (no pun intended), shall we?
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Post by Amarel »

Bleh, Legion :p (although I played them for a while as a second faction to Circle, before being suckered in by the Troll models ;)).

If you ever find yourself in the position of requiring a single Vessel Acolyth let me know; i've - rather strangely - ended up with just one (and beyond painting her up and using her in Song of Blades I don't really have much i can do with her).
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Post by Shockwave »

Gary: Don't worry, it doesn't seem my kind of thing at all. I've not left Warmachine/ Hordes, just on pause due to MKII, Warmachine due to wanting the know the final game, Hordes because i've seen the change to the models/ units in Warmachine MKII and know that they won't be the same come the MKII Hordes playtest in January, especially my favourite girl, Ryhas (Yes i'm a Legion man as well).
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Dark Alliance »

She's a good caster for sure. I'm using eLylyth at the Whoremachine GT next weekend though.
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Post by Amarel »

I used Rhyas Shredder Popcorn list before I dropped Legion - it's surprisingly good fun :D.

eLylyth is very good; superb assassinista - good luck with the Tourney.

I don't think there will be *that* much change in Hordes MKII (beyond the obvious core rule changes that can bee seen from the WM list), especially with regards to Meta.
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Post by Dark Alliance »

We should continue talking about this elsewhere, otherwise I gotta give myself a warning!

Here...

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=61603
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Post by Shockwave »

However back on topic :D

Is the inability to give a Master (or Dreadlord for that matter) the Khanite trait as frustrating to everyone else as it is to me, seems to be an overlooked design flaw. Bloody annoying.

Also, can Morathi preform in the magic phase as i think she can? I'm looking at giving her a Focus familiar along with the Dark Sword?
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Rabidnid »

Shockwave wrote:However back on topic :D

Is the inability to give a Master (or Dreadlord for that matter) the Khanite trait as frustrating to everyone else as it is to me, seems to be an overlooked design flaw. Bloody annoying.

Also, can Morathi preform in the magic phase as i think she can? I'm looking at giving her a Focus familiar along with the Dark Sword?


That is the point to death hags. Basically the only problem is with executioners, as they aren't frenzied but are khanite. If they had a frenzy banner rather than the corsairs that would be cool :)

It took me a while to get used to the idea of 200 point melee models without any armour save, but the changes in the second set of errata for the main rule book helps, as you can now taget any model in BtB with you. Deathags are basically awesome with a witch escort.

Moranthi is very expensive for what she does.
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Post by Ebonyphoenix »

Shockwave wrote:Is the inability to give a Master (or Dreadlord for that matter) the Khanite trait as frustrating to everyone else as it is to me, seems to be an overlooked design flaw. Bloody annoying.


I believe the main consensus is that it is to prevent the overwhelming cheese (as far as everyone playing against us is concerned) of a 1+ AS Master BSB with the Banner of Hag Graef parking in a unit of Executioners and being virtually unkillable.

In advance, yes the BSB could still be killed but it would take a lot more work.
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Post by Calisson »

Shockwave wrote:What is making the Hydra a "no-brainer"? it's new cheaper cost or the S=W of the breath attack?
Hydra is considered undercosted.
It is very, very sturdy (not unkillable but the opponent has to dedicate a lot of efforts for just this unit).
The hydra can hold most charges by itself, but will loose to SCR.
It is not sufficient to lone front-charge SCR-maxed infantry, but it is great as a flanker.
When it is intact, it's often better to breathe/terrorize the opponent's units than to charge them.
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Post by Azimyth »

Like Calisson said the hydra is undercosted by about 25-50 pts, it also has a large number of high strength attacks with hatred and the handlers even with their low strength often add to the pain.
The biggest change was, IMNSHO, the army wide hatred. It's a bit of a double egded sword but what a difference. In a way it's like RFZ from the old cauldron but increase the number of hits in the first turn.
Dark riders still perform their duties but have now become an effective combat threat what with hatred and also being able to become medium cavalry(not used often but I have used it to some effect).
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Post by Shockwave »

Hmm, might have to build the one i got in the Spearhead. So that i can run a pair.....
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

Strangely, been here longer than most of the Admin staff.......
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Post by No one »

in that case prepare to get shot by other players (though it is really funny to see your opponent's face when you put down two hydra's)
'with hatred all things are possible' -Malus of Hag Greaf-

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Post by Dannyisevil »

Play a game with the dark elf and see what's fun too use in the army.
There is not 1 way too play with them but manny.

Using a one trick army or I can only win army is less fun too play agains.
Fun is important.
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Post by Shockwave »

It's actually quite frustrating, I was meant/ hoping to get a game in today, but i'm having a lot of difficulty in writing a list that i like/ feel confident with. I use to be able to look at a list and know if it would work or not, but i can't do that with fantasy anymore, it was actually a joke at the shop where i could look at 2 opposing lists and say, "list 2 will win by/ on turn 4". Quite irritating.
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Brokenstone »

Just get back on the wagon and maybe it will come back to you. Although, it would be nice to consider that tactics can win rather than just armies... But that would suggest it is even
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Post by Shockwave »

Brokenstone wrote:Just get back on the wagon and maybe it will come back to you. Although, it would be nice to consider that tactics can win rather than just armies... But that would suggest it is even

LOL

I'm not saying that i can write tournament quality lists that will wipe the floor. More i case of i like this and i can get it to work.
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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Post by Shockwave »

Well i got a game today, playing a list that seemed decent against someone that has stopped playing Delfs as his 30+ knights with DRider support was proving to easy to win with, so he took Orcs and Goblins. Strange game with stupidity costing me my Knights and a unit of Riders and Morathi's misscasts costing me a win. A Strange rules question in regards to Bladewind Versus Fanatics but otherwise a decent but draining game, 3+ hours with set up and breakdown time. So used to hour and half - two hour long games with Wramachine.
I'd rather lose a closely fought game then have it all sown up in a couple of turns.

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