How are the elves a dying race?

Rebmonk · Post by **Rebmonk** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:14 pm

So in all of the lore it always says that elves are a dying race. However, I thought about it in biological terms.

Man's population has always been on the increase. Given we live to about 100 now, females are able to reproduce from puberty (lets say 16) to 40 or 50? That really only gives them a window of 20-30 years to reproduce. Yet, we are flourishing.

Now let's look at elves. Elves seem to live at least 1000+ years. Now lets take into consideration that maybe a female is able to reproduce for 200-300 years. Given 10x the amount to reproduce and raise offspring, you would think with that amount of time that if the population suffered horribly they'd have ample time to get the population increasing again.

Now I don't know how long it takes an elf to mature, but it feels like elves could raise a lot more children per household, since once the elves mature and take off they could raise another round of children if they desired. However, in human terms by that time it is too late.

I understand dark elves might be because we are such a harsh race, but with the high elves all they have to do is defend themselves and besides that they have nothing better to do. And yet they cry and complain that their time in the spot light is over.

Anyways, thoughts?

Jadin · Post by **Jadin** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:47 pm

I dont think the elves are a dying race in Fantasy. The dark elves are quite prosperous actually. So are the High Elves. They are just in constant warfare with the other races so they can survive. Other backgrounds might have elves as a dying race(Tolkien, Iron Kingdoms), but in Warhammer Fantasy, elves are going strong.

Post by **Dalamar** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:27 pm

Actually the Asur are a dying race, their cities once full of sound now echo the wind blowing across the empty streets of Tor Achare, Lothern or Tor Yvresse.

Yes, elves are capable of having large families and thrive as the Druchii prove. But their way of live is vastly different between Asur and Druchii, as well as between Elves and Men.

Asur take long considerations about raising children, bringing them into this horrible, sad world and making sure they will have as happy childhood as possible. Which with constant threat of Druchii invasion, chaos invasion or any other war isn't that simple.

For Druchii sex is much less of a taboo and many offspring are a sign of power as well as opportunity for more wealth (and power) since every noble funds their own raiding expeditions and you can only run as many as you have children (since the lord has to stay home not to lose his position to politics), hence children for the Druchii are an asset as any other, disposed of if not proved up to the demand.

Humans on the other hand I'd see as feudal europe where children were mostly seen as another pair of hands to work. Work the fields, work the forge, work anywhere they're needed. Unless they were lucky enough to be born into noble family.

The elves see the bigger picture and while Asur try to avoid suffering they had to go through for any children they might have, Druchii attempt to exploit the chaos of the world.

Humans are mostly unaware supersticious bunch who simply want to make ends meet and children are just a part of their everyday struggle.

Tethlis · Post by **Tethlis** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:47 am

I'm not sure that rate of reproduction really has much to do with the Elves in terms of "dying." Obviously, the Elven empire used to be tremendous, and the Elven population much higher. Between the War of the Beard and continuous Civil War, the Elves have lost much of their holdings. Regardless of their relative birth rates, their decline in power is enough to qualify them as declining.

Iyagd · Post by **Iyagd** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:28 pm

@ Paksos & Kabal.

You're both officially warned for spamming.
Such behaviour is considered as Forum Rules abuse. It is also worth to mention, that content of Your posts is inappropriate.

If You disagree feel free to PM me or Admins.

You are watched.

Iyagd, Druchii Discussion moderator.

Additionally I deleted the two posts as we don't need that kind of talk on these forums.

- Mr. Anderson

Post by **Drainial** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:28 pm

The old WFB rule book described the elves as like unto a sunset, glorious, beautiful, majestic yet slowly dieing. I am no expert but it seems to me that over several thousand years the elves have changed not at all, or at least very little, whilst the world has thrown up a whole host of new chlanges. Elves are in a kind of stasis, dwarfs may not like change yet given a similar time period they have steamships, cannons, rudimentary gattling guns, fire arms, steampowerd this that and the other. The elves seem to have stoped advanceing about the time of the Sundering. Its as if they can only do one thing at once. They set out to make a paradise island, done. They set out to deafeat chaos, partialy done. They set out to explore and conqour the world, done. One faction set out to rule over the other, not yet done. The elves are stuck trying to do this one thing and have not continued to advance in any significant way. Its no wonder that they are in decline.

Demetrius · Post by **Demetrius** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:06 pm

Im pretty sure that Elves don't advance in technology because they believe that steam powered and coal powered things aren't trustworthy, they would rather use a bow/ crossbow which won't break from mechanical faults.

Also, I would think that it would take one birth generation of elves the time of 3 or 4 human generations, because elves take longer to develop/ fall in love etc.

Post by **Dalamar** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:54 pm

I also believe it's partially due to elven longevity.

Humans are driven by fear of death, agree with me or don't, and they really want to leave a mark in the world after their death. Arts, Science, Wars, we humans jump into anything with passion just to prove we are better than other... humans.
Without having any skills in the above, what is the best way to leave mark in the world? Offspring of course.

Elves aren't bothered with their deaths, they have centuries to master whatever they set out to master. Another centuries to do something else. And only once they've achieved what they intended to, they can consider bringing children into this world. They have plenty of time after all.

Willowdark · Post by **Willowdark** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:20 pm

Reproductive rates in Feudalistic Europe were also driven by self interest, since most married men considered it there right to sleep with their wives and the responsibility of the wife to deal with whatever consequences popped up (or out, as it were). Children were valued as farm hands and such, but that was just as much of a practical way of using them as anything else.

While High Elves clearly demonstrate a greater determination for self control and a clearer awareness of the consequences of their actions.

High Elves are so Greek, aren't they? for all of their glorious sophistication, education and rich cultural heritage, they just couldn't resist being Imperialistic. And like all Empires, save the Holy Roman Empire, they grew too large too fast and couldn't take care of themselves at home. There decline is kinda sad, like Athens before them.

It's a well written story from a long tradition. Even from the Tolkien point of view. the beauty and perfection of the Elves just can't stand up to the suffering, evil and impermanence of the real world. It's the classic image of the Elves in most stories. Once noble, the masters of their domain, and now beaten down and at odds with everything, their doom just over the horizon.

they're a dying race because all things must die. And they've lived long enough.

Kangavallo · Post by **Kangavallo** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:59 am

I suspect it would be far more accurate to say that the society is dying. I really doubt that the elves will die out. It is more likely that the way of life will reach a critically small size and then implode. From it will be rebourn a new elven society as similar in glory as it is different in nature. (unless they get crushed by chaos first)

Post by **Dalamar** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:10 am

When there aren't enough Asur to guard the gates, the Druchii will take over Ulthuan without opposition and the Asur will die out (unless there are some remnants left at the far outposts)

Erethain · Post by **Erethain** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:00 pm

Dalamar wrote:When there aren't enough Asur to guard the gates, the Druchii will take over Ulthuan without opposition and the Asur will die out (unless there are some remnants left at the far outposts)

mainly because the Druchii will slaughter or enslave every high elf they come across. the problem for the high elves is that they constantly have to be on guard to watch for attacks from both chaos and the Druchii, their wars with the dark elves often last for centuries at a time which naturally drains their population and other resources. forced into a constant state of awareness the high elves dont have as much time to rebuild themselves. that plus much of their influence in the old world is gone is probably why they're being called a dying race. i'm surprised that the dwarfs aren't considered so, they're at constant war with skaven and greenskins and much of their empire is either in ruin or in the hands of the enemy or both. as industrious as they are, war machines dont help their numbers (except maybe to lessen their losses in combat)

Cathel · Post by **Cathel** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:13 pm

While the Dark Elves look out for Chaos attacks and back stabbing in the society, while also losing manpower to raids on foreign shores.
I think that dying race is more to the HE than the elves in general. I do not think that DE are dying. Maybe I have to read up on the fluff, but I cannot remember anything saying DE are dwindling in numbers.

I do not think that the "dying race" is so much as really dying from lack of birth but, as Kain pointed out, dying in influence.
They may have a decline in numbers / birth due to being tired of the world. That would explain it better, in my oppinion, than a real physical problem in reproduction. That as well as the maybe the gestation time being longer than with humans.

Post by **Drainial** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:19 pm

The dwarves are considerd a dying race, though they are dieing more slowly than the Elves, in their case the Dwarven empire once stretched throughout the old worlds mountain ranges and through to those of far distent continents. Now Karaz Ankor is broken and the empire disunited, beset on all sides and they are not advancing quickly enough or reproducing energeticly enough to do more than stave off death for another centuary. Its all about progress and the elder races are stuck in the past. They might consider gunpowder too unpredictable (fair enough) but they have not come up with any alternatives now have they? They have stayed with the same set of weapons for over five millenia, man kind has moved from bronze spears to trident missiles in that same time frame.

Doriili bariiliia · Post by **Doriili bariiliia** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:32 pm

I thing the Decline of the Asur has much to do with the Rise of the Druchii at some point they will fail and the Druchii will take what is rightly theirs. The Asur know this, simple math can tell them this.

Ebonyphoenix · Post by **Ebonyphoenix** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:38 am

I don't believe that the elves are currently listed as a dying race by gw anymore.
The asur have stabilized their birth and death rates despite the casualties caused by chaos and us of course, the asrai (wood elves for those who are unfamiliar) are just aloof and isolationist, and the druchii are only ever in trouble as a race when we lose a war, and then only for a short time until we come back for vengeance with more numbers than we had originally.

Erethain · Post by **Erethain** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:02 am

Drainial wrote:The dwarves are considerd a dying race, though they are dieing more slowly than the Elves, in their case the Dwarven empire once stretched throughout the old worlds mountain ranges and through to those of far distent continents. Now Karaz Ankor is broken and the empire disunited, beset on all sides and they are not advancing quickly enough or reproducing energeticly enough to do more than stave off death for another centuary. Its all about progress and the elder races are stuck in the past. They might consider gunpowder too unpredictable (fair enough) but they have not come up with any alternatives now have they? They have stayed with the same set of weapons for over five millenia, man kind has moved from bronze spears to trident missiles in that same time frame.

if they weren't so stubborn with their grudges they could fall back to safer lands and repopulate as well as improving their weapons, but of course they wouldn't be Dwarves then

Post by **Drainial** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:05 pm

They are basicly confined to their fortress cites as it is, the only exeptions being a few rangers and merchants living in the empire.

@1elbow · Post by **@1elbow** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:34 am

All in all I think the GW perception of races is human based. Elves and Dwarves are portrayed as being "dying" more because, in my mind, that they see things as one dimensional. Dwarves see thing in a sense how they relate to enemies, they hate O&G for attacking them, mostly-disdain Elves for their rivalry, and can stand humans for their loyalty.

On the other hand, Elves see both Dwarves and Humans as "lesser" races and so only as allies against chaos (etc) but mostly disrespect them as races.

However, humans being the most short-lived, are concerned with their survival, and are willing to accept most any allegiance as long as their empires survive.

I don't know that a HUMAN can consider the lifespans of Chaos (infinite) and an elf (five or ten times our own) but I do think that we would have to consider the elves a dying race in comparison to our own simply because of life lived.

One of the best fluff-pieces in GW (to me) is about a Vampire that kills a necromancer and ponders how humans fight for life because we die more quickly and easily than they do. Consider that Elves and Dwarves far away from humans and Orcs and see the difference and why, comparably, they are different and I know why a forty-year-old human would see the latter as more "dying" than the former.

Grimstonefire · Post by **Grimstonefire** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:14 pm

I always thought the birth rate of elves and dwarfs was related to the amount of magic in the world. In ages past, when the old ones were around the elf and dwarf populations grew to an immense size.

Magic left the world to a large extent after the fall of chaos, hence why dragons are so sleepy. This would also help to explain why HE and Dwarfs are reproducing more slowly.

I don't know any of the official DE fluff in relation to all this, but if it is stated somewhere that they have a fairly high birth rate I think living closer to the realm of chaos would have an affect.

Methuselah · Post by **Methuselah** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:35 pm

I think you are failing to consider the most important aspect of reproduction (I'll give you a hint, it's not biological or physiological). The sociological factors will determine the hows and whys of the elf's reproduction.

It's possible they only mate during certain times of the year, or certain times of their lives. Maybe they have a tradition of only giving birth to one kid, or only after they've been married 100 years. Maybe because they live so long, they don't have that "urge" to have sex like humans do (at least the male ones!). Who knows? The point is, there could be a hundred different reasons why the race is dewindling, all of them social related.

But considering this is a game with fanatics and steam tanks, does it really need to make sense? If you can explain who a steam horse actually works, I'll explain why elves don't reproduce.

Jungly · Post by **Jungly** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:58 pm

I think its just that the elves are getting smaller proportionally because they reproduce so much slower then other races
.

Megazephyr · Post by **Megazephyr** » Fri May 22, 2009 1:24 am

the crazy thing is, you would think that the dark elves wouldnt be an existant race.. i mean, as they stand there just couldnt be a civilization, they couldnt even field an army.

sure, you may have many births, but they are raised to be the strongest, and kill the weakest, and seeing that through, youd see the strongest killing the moderately strong and so on until there really isnt anyone left.

civilization wise, you can accuse other leaders of crimes, kill them, have them executed and what not, and that is what they want their people to do, its ridiculous, how can anything get done in dark elf society?

Crazyhorse · Post by **Crazyhorse** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:27 am

@megazephyr I have no one piece of fluff to back this, just a feeling from the fluff over all

1. It would be a negative for the strong groups to kill the weaker ones as they recognize they need the weaker ones. Just as you need the paper boy and garbage collectors to make your world run, not the best of jobs, but needed none the less.

2. While it seems to me that dark elves are slowly becoming more and more like dark eldar (kill for the sheer joy of it) I believe that they embody capitalism at its most basic form, a government built on the idea of profit. I would also see some Machiavellian ideas of to gain power you must be willing to do whatever it takes, morals are a weakness.

These are just my thoughts on it, no real "proof" but this is the Dark elf I fell in love with before the new book.

-crazyhorse

Zardock · Post by **Zardock** » Fri May 22, 2009 5:47 am

I think the book exaggerates the killing within Dark Elf society it is written more from the perspective of a human than anything else.

I believe that they embody capitalism at its most basic form

I agree with this, convenient they are in the geographical location of the USA aren't they.

The Druchii only kill things when they become useless completely, they fully utilise the resources they have and if they have excess 'capital' then they can play around with it and poke it full of sharp objects.

I assume the majority of lower class druchii stay out of the fighting to an extent and so they aren't being butchered every single day. It is really only the higher classes getting into this assassination thing and they can only amount to perhaps 5% of the population at maximum, so the inter-druchii killing would not affect the society as a whole population wise.

Societal views however will become somewhat schewed and will have a twisted moral system to accomodate such actions.