Pivotal DE GT discussion

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Grandmaster ej
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Pivotal DE GT discussion

Post by Grandmaster ej »

Hey guys, I thought we needed to start off a thread this year just for dealing with the newest threats, mainly, lizardmen as they have some pretty good natural counters to dark elves. We need:

methods of dealing with 4x4 terradon + slann armies (which WILL appear for this year as the pack has made them perhaps even more effective)

small units of speared saurus warriors, as they destroy all of our infantry including asf blackguard (unless cauldron buffed)

I dont believe steggadons are a problem as we have enough tools in our army to take those guys down.
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Post by Matras »

Seriously, I think you are overestimating them a bit. I play them myself. The Teradons can be shot down - and will not be too much of a problem once they have dropped their load (which is very dice-dependent anyway). And the Slann gets killed by the RoHotek just like any other mage.

Saurus warriors can be ugly, you can either avoid them due to their slow speed, or use combined attacks. Remember, their WS is rather low, so our damage output is considerably higher.
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Post by Grandmaster ej »

Allow me to be a little more specific. A slann cannot be stopped by the ring alone, for example if the slann chose the lore of death (which they often do), a lot of those spells can be caste with 2 dice, which have quite a low chance of being caught by the RoH.

Further more, an experienced terradon player at the UK GT will make use of the large terrain pieces they have there to make sure the terradons are impossible to see, either bein physically in the woods or behind obsticles. Even if you somehow manage to spot one, theres 3 more units to go. Each of which has a hitting power to fully kill our lightly armoured support units, shades, dark riders, perhaps even a damaged crossbow unit. Further more this will cause complete headaches for unit placement, wizards would be at a huge risk operating alone or inside shade/dark rider units. Yes they are not a huge risk for heavier or larger units, but the light support units which are commonly seen in DE armies at the GT can be destroyed at will by a multi-terradon army.

Saurus can be shot just as easily as any other infantry true, however when one remembered the devestation that terradons can cause amongst out ranged units... problems
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

Sounds a vicious idea and very tempting. DE's have been toppled by lizards for the filth but they won't see it.
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Post by Grandmaster ej »

Not toppled, DE are still a bad-ass army its just that in the simple terms of rock-paper scissors, lizardmen are most certainly the scissors to our paper.
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Post by Dalamar »

But a Slann/multi-terradon army will have big troubles against VCs and Daemons... hence why I think that particular build of lizardmen will not be too common occurence for the GT.

Remember DE will not be their only opponent so they need to prepare to face everything... Even empire can cause lots of trouble to such army (steam tank and knights pretty much immune to terradons, plenty of dispel dice against lore of metal, strong shooting etc.)

I wouldn't be worried about specific armies, instead I think it's particularly important to focus on your own army that will be capable of dealing with scenario objectives and special orders (especially those. 400 points is a lot and can be the difference between win and loss)
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Post by Grandmaster ej »

As an example, a rough idea of what a friend of mine is taking to the GT:

slann - lots of fun bits, lone build
scar vet - BSB cruise missile, piranha blade
engine

3x 10 skinks
2x12 saurus + spears

4x4 terradons

this is not the full army, but is the skeliton, not sure whether he will add another engine

But the engine alone is enough to deal with knights, steam tanks can be avoided and or blocked/melted

I cant see how vampires would give that many problems If i was a lizardmen player Id take that to the GT with no hesitation. Daemons are a problem for everyone but its got the tools to deal with those in most cases.
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Post by Grez90 »

As both a lizards and dark elf player, I would find that lizardmen list quite easy to deal with. Only having 2 spear blocks (not even blocks really) means they can be avoided.
The terradons are very weak to anything, all you have to do is be able to see them.
If I faced that list I would simply push all my heavy units towards woods (hydras, dragons etc.).
Plus having bolt throwers and mages (especially with the familiar) makes it so easy to deal with them. If worst comes to worst, you offer 2 units all your harpies and just let the terradons drop on them, so that now they become poor harrassers.
If you deal with either the flyers/ground troops, you will more than likely win, as Lizardmen must have both to work effectively. (terradons without saurus/stegadons are weak, stegs/saurus without terradons/skinks become extremely vulnerable).
The slann will no doubt be ethereal, so you charge it with a dragonlord, or cast doombolt/bladewind on it. You'd be surprised how easy he'll die after them.
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Post by Grandmaster ej »

I could go on arguing, but its fairly clear that im in the minority here so im just going to say that I respectfully disagree entirely. and agree to disagree.
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

To be honest with DE's there is several ways and i have not really struggled with the lizardmen with the new set up but i do play one of the best lizardmen armies regullary.

For lizards there biggest problem is the hydra as it is soo tough to kill and i use to kill skink units. Breathing on terradons with hydras and a black dragon with handbows seems the best options.

Also a lot of lizard players put there terradons behind skinks so harpies can get the overrun on them.

I find with Terradons is restricting where can go with deployment and with our longer ranged superior shooting we can kill a few before they become a threat.
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Post by Dangerous Beans »

I have played the new lizards countless times now and never once have they proven much of a problem (the player wielding them does have substantial experience too I might add).

For me it was all about outmanouvreing them - which, being as lizardmen are a very flexiable list, does not sound easy to do, and I admit, ones with numerous terradons can prove particularly irksome but not invincible.

When dealing with Saurus I have often found Hydras to be of particular use - many attacks, good save and regen usually stops too much damage done in return if you charge the front, though this is overly risky - Hydras love terrain and can outmanouvre a saurus unit (being both faster and more flexiable).

Terradons die in droves to magic and our massed shooting, though a wiley player will of course use the woods to keep them sheltered and charge out from - thus harpies (which of course can't fly into woods, but can block LOS to the unit the enemy wish to charge) or magic are our best weapons - the rocks still hurt though - not a lot you can do about that really, just damage limitation as much as possible.

Stegadons - I have always found Stegs VS Hydras sees the Hydras come out on top: if you can keep the Hydra away from Carnosaurs/being charged/outnumbered then Hydras really shine against lizardmen.

Slann - can't say Ive faced these guys as much as Oldbloods but hunting them if theyre on theyre own should see again, hydras can do this, or even harpies/DRs if you're lucky! In units, the slann becomes less manouvrable/flexiable (LOS etc) but a lot tougher nut to crack - and if in a large temple guard unit, almost impossible! My method was of course the good old trusty Cold One Knights of Hydra Bannerness + Cauldron + Hydra combo - it minced through the temple guard.

Equally though, as we all know, ASF Executioners + Cauldron = dead templeguard.

The trouble is, sure we can deal with lizardmen, but how do you create a tournement list that not only deals with lizardmen but of course every other army too?

- Beanz

PS. Good to see you around still Matras!

edit: oh and they love Dragons too - just keep em in combat to avoid skink blowpipeage! ;)
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Post by Grandmaster ej »

I will most certainly agree that hydras are effective against lizardmen.
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Post by Marauder mitch2 »

The DE idea i am working on is shooting magic avoidance with a dragon and tbh i doubt i would have too much trouble with the terradon army. Also terradons can't capture any thing so most you will see is 3 units and our shooting will hurt them.

I find against lizards i deploy back and work on killing skinks early on. Once they go down its game on. The big Temple guard can be avoided and harpies sacrificed to stop them moving. My problem will be daemons or originallity which is the other army i am working on.
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Post by Dalamar »

If they decide for the scoring units to function in all games like the do in the first. I'm actually reconsidering using hydrae at all.

Second unit of CoKs would be cheaper and perform similar role while being able to claim objectives and such.

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Post by Dark Alliance »

I think the point that EJ is making, and which most people seem to be missing, is the actual composition of the Lizardmen army he is suggesting may be present.

In balanced lists I agree, one or two units of Terradons who cares? But FOUR.....??

And so on...
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Post by Comrade igor »

Interesting topic. Heres a balanced army list for lizardmen, you can all chip in with your strats and we'll see where this goes.

Slann, BSB, Rumination, Congitation, Bane Head, Scroll, Plaque of Tepok, Divine Plaque of Protection = 435
Skink Priest, Engine, Wardrums of Xahutek = 420
Saurus Scar Vet, Cold One, LA, Burning Blade, Ench. Shield = 145

10 Skink Skermishers = 70
10 Skink Skermishers = 70
10 Skink Skermishers = 70
12 Saurus, Spears, Musician = 150
12 Saurus, Spears, Musician = 150

Stegadon = 235
3 Terradons = 90
3 Terradons = 90

Salamander = 75

Edit: Slann works as a loner and is very effective in that role (2+ WS vs shooting), Engine can't be marchblocked, Scar Vet hurts hydras and knights and is hard to kill in any case, plenty of diverting, and extra steg, two units of Terradons and a lone Sallie for burninating block units.
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Post by A18no »

I'm not too famiiar with GT tournement. But in my region, the winner of the last tournement was an O&G.

Am I out if i suggest to make lists that want to draw with everyone.. and be a good leader to succed in your objective. That way, it's draw in VP, but you can win with the 400 pts...

Good luck and have fun
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Post by Grandmaster ej »

change the burning blade for the pirahna blade, drop the normal steggadon for 10 more terradons, 4 units of 4 :P
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Post by Comrade igor »

Im not asking how to improve the list, but how you would fight it. >.<

Having said that, Burning blade > Piranha Blade (useful in more situations) and 4x4 terradons is excessive unless the game is set in Athel Loren. :/
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Post by Grandmaster ej »

hell no man, pirahna blade in the current meta-game, think about it!?!? flesh hounds, flamers, cairne wraiths? any kind of hero-hero challange, even a cheeky go at monsters, for the points, on a scar vet, its FAR FAR too good not to take, ESSPECIALLY on a cruise missile.

Versus that list, in my current thinking, id blow the living crap out of it with kairos and have the masque running all over the place mopping stuff up, along with the slann, jobs a good'un.
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Post by Dyvim tvar »

Grandmaster EJ wrote:hell no man, pirahna blade in the current meta-game, think about it!?!? flesh hounds, flamers, cairne wraiths?


Agree completely. A character with the ability to inflict multi-wound hits can be huge -- as mentioned, it can be critical against a VC opponent who uses Cairn Wraiths.
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Post by Comrade igor »

Thing is, he's WS 5 S5 A4, sounds great but hes hitting on 4's mostly.

You say cairn wraiths and flesh hounds, i say regen busses and hydras. You say dragon princes i say knights with 1+ AS, and so on.

Tomato Tomato.
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Post by Grandmaster ej »

Indeed, the lizardmen version of the pendant cruise missile arguement - sword of might vs soulrender
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Post by Calisson »

Added to the D.R.A.I.C.H. under "Lizardmen" antistrategy.
Grandmaster EJ, if you start discussing another race's andtistrategy, please start a new thread.
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Post by Grandmaster ej »

In terms of armies such as the one above and similar (MSU style led by a slann)

OK so, things we can bullet point so far that are effective against lizardmen in the 7th ed metagame:

Dreadlord ridden Black Dragons
Cruise Missile BSB (pendant, magic weapon, steed)
hydras
harpies
(starting to look very familiar lol)
ASF executioners
Cold One Knights
Cold One Chariots

In essence, units that are also weak, or at a disadvantage against lizardmen:

peggasus mounted mages (rocks can kill the steed)
steed mounted mages (if alone or in small units)
shades
black guard
witch elves
manticores

the 'shade-star' would almost certainly just be carpet-bombed and commeted into oblivion

msu and shade heavy armies will have problems against lizardmen unless backed up by multiple monsters

the cauldron would be able to even the odds between our infantry units and spear-saurus
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