(Preview of) ETC 2013 Draft

[Setomidor]

Hi!

Have you guys seen the preview of the new ETC draft? It can be found at http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=110615.

Personally, I think the changes are quite good. The DE are slightly reeled in, but so are other armies (Empire, Skaven, Ogres). I still we can manage really good armies under these restrictions, and I also think that Dragon lists have become a more viable option compared to Supreme-sorc lists.

//Seto

[L1qw1d]

Not trolling, but I've not been a HUGE fan of ETC. It's counter productive. I seem SOME merits they posit, but it would drive me natty if this was the way it was mandated to play (mind you, I say this after ranting IRL to a buddy about GW's own apparent disinterest in how things get played and not copy/play testing before release lol)

[Omnichron]

I like ETC a lot actually, as it balances out the advantages and disadvantages of different armies, and forces players to not use the "natural" selections (mostly cheesy stuff).

If you take a look at all the lists that aren't restricted at our Army Section and check them up against the ETC restrictions, almost all of them are somehow illegal for ETC... Because, we use the best things most of the time as we want to make really strong lists.

As Dark Elves has some of the strongest combinations and quite broken magic phases, we need some hefty restrictions... and even with those, we can win most of our battles.

With these restrictions, other choices and units become a much better option, and you are forced to think somewhat different and improve your own game... because you don't have those easy solutions you'd use in the non-restricted tournaments.

[Daeron]

Some restrictions are good to bring in the balance where GW didn't bother balancing the armies, but for something that is called "European Tournament Championship", I'm not sure if it should be its purpose to force players into unconventional lists through the comp.

The way Dark Elves are hit by the comp is odd. Really odd. It's like anything with remotely good strength and synergy is prohibited. Let me quote the comp for dark elves here for a moment:

Reaper Bolt Throwers, Harpies units are 0-2 each.
Dark riders 0-3
Hydra is a 0-1 choice.
Max. 35 repeater Crossbows (excluding chariots & characters) in the army.
Shades max 20 models per army.
Pendant of Khaeleth cannot be taken by lord characters.
Pendant of Khaeleth/Crown of command/Cauldron of Blood/Hydra max 2 in total
Sacrificial dagger/mage lord, max 2 in total
Pegasus/mage lord/Standard of Discipline/Pendant of Khaeleth, max 3 in total
Assassins/Rendering stars max 4 in total.

RBTs comped -> werird, but "okay"
Harpies comped -> I'd say it's still within reason.
Dark Riders comped -> Odd.. but still within reason
Hydra comped -> I understand why, but they didn't follow that logic through for units like SKullcrushers (who can still stack up to 8!)
Max repeater crossbows -> Okay.. but considering the other heavy core restrictions, we are forced into Corsairs and spearmens. We can't almost can't build a list without these.
Max Shades -> I'd say still within reason but they count to the RxB limit already, which further pigeon holes our core choices.

But here comes to complete weirdness:
POK not on lord characters... This forces us to choose between a solid Dreadlord or an offensive Dreadlord since even the 100 point limit makes it tough to get both. And at this point cost, we have to go for 1 Lord choice with good equipment or 1 half-good equipped Lord with 1 poorly equipped Sorceress or go for 2 mediocre Lords on peg. If we do take a supreme Sorc, we're pushed into making her go on foot, but the standard of Discipline is adding to the limitation of peg support.

PoK/COB/Crown of Command/Hydra, max 2 in total.
Pegasus/mage lord/Standard of Discipline/Pendant of Khaeleth, max 3 in total
So if we do take a peg level 2 Sorc with PoK (heaven forbids we'd actually give her protection), we can't have a hydra, can't have a cauldron of blood, can't have a crown of command.
What is wrong with a level 2 Sorc peg with PoK?

I dunno... It feels odd. We may see builds that include a supreme Sorc in a spearmen bunker with sac dagger (just to rub it in) with a Lord on a cold one, COB, Master on peg with a POK or a scroll caddy, a Hydra banner BSB and Cold one deathstar. Heck, if they took the scroll caddy, they could use the sac dagger on the supreme sorceress and get a Hydra in as flank support for the CoKs.

[Setomidor]

Some restrictions are good to bring in the balance where GW didn't bother balancing the armies, but for something that is called "European Tournament Championship", I'm not sure if it should be its purpose to force players into unconventional lists through the comp.

Actually it's "European Team Championships", since the tournament is played team-wise :) What i like with the current restrictions is that they're still not banning items like the Pendant, they're just forcing us to give up other stuff instead if we want it.

I'm guessing the reasons for the new additions to the rules are something like this:

RBTs compted -> Avoid 20 Shades + 4 RBT + 15 Crossbows + Shadow lists
Dark Riders comped -> Avoid armies with 100% of their core spent on Dark Riders who just stay away
Pendant more comped -> Try to see at least one DE army without the pendant without banning it completely

What is wrong with a level 2 Sorc peg with PoK?

I agree, a level 2 Sorc peg with PoK is hit unreasonably hard by these rules, but most (competitive) people would never bring her (too easy to kill). Instead, you'd see a Master BSB with Pendant on Pegasus, who has a great save, pendant, and probably has a 2++ ward against Flaming (to survive Metal spells).

POK not on lord characters

This one means that we can't build Chuck Norris (Crown of Command + Pendant), which is a really sick build :)

I dunno... It feels odd. We may see builds that include a supreme Sorc in a spearmen bunker with sac dagger (just to rub it in) with a Lord on a cold one, COB, Master on peg with a POK or a scroll caddy, a Hydra banner BSB and Cold one deathstar. Heck, if they took the scroll caddy, they could use the sac dagger on the supreme sorceress and get a Hydra in as flank support for the CoKs.

Personally I think this is a very good example of a strong DE build where you (as you say) have to make the choice between the Sorc Lord and the Hydra. Another strong build that i think will surface is a Dragon list with two Pegasus friends (Pendant + Cloakstone), supported by the Hydra and some low-level mages.

[Daeron]

I can understand trying to avoid the 20-shade-40RxBs-4RBT list, but... The way the current restrictions are formulated you have to take at least a spearmen unit or a corsair unit... Unless you plan on taking a 20 DR unit.
There's little wrong with either spearmen or corsair, but it feels odd being pushed down that line the way they did.

We're comped heavily in our core choices (we have to go for rank and file, combat infantry), we're comped heavily in Rare choices and we're compred heavily in character choices. It basically leaves us with the special choices as playground, in which only Shades are comped.

It doesn't mean we can't build strong lists, though, but it will take some time to figure out where the strengths can be played. It's clearly going to be all about the special choices, and how they can be backed up.

[Prince fabulas]

If you don't want spears or corsairs.

Core:

3 x 5 DR 255
10 XB Music 105
22 Xbow, FC 240
Total 600

You can have a Dragon, Peg PoK BSB and 2 L2's,
Hydra , 2 x harpies, and 400 points to spend on
chariots, RBT or Assassins.
Or maybe BG or Exe (but in that case I drop the hydra for a cauldron).

CoK have potential.

I think it's pretty strict comp DE destroyed people at ETC 2009 and again in 2011.

But there is still plenty there to build good and varies lists.

Although I think the dragon maybe by far the strongest.

[Dyvim tvar]

I haven't played, but I do think that Dark Elves are over-comped, particularly in comparison to Ogres, which can give Dark Elves fits even when the DE are unrestricted.

[Daeron]

Prince Fabulas: you wouldn't be free to take chariots (RxBs).

Perhaps the executioner horde can make an entry. That still looks possible in this comp, and with them becomming stubborn within the COB's range, this might play some interesting tricks. But it's only half a weapon against some monstrous cavalry, I fear. It could be supported by a Metal Sorc, who doesn't need the Sac Dagger or Peg.
Perhaps a Level 1 or level 2 Shadow sorc to finish the power build and a peg master to be a nuisance.

[Prince fabulas]

Prince Fabulas: you wouldn't be free to take chariots (RxBs).

Chariots and characters are have an exemption from the XBow limit.

[Omnichron]

PoK/COB/Crown of Command/Hydra, max 2 in total.
Pegasus/mage lord/Standard of Discipline/Pendant of Khaeleth, max 3 in total
So if we do take a peg level 2 Sorc with PoK (heaven forbids we'd actually give her protection), we can't have a hydra, can't have a cauldron of blood, can't have a crown of command.
What is wrong with a level 2 Sorc peg with PoK?

A PoK pegasus Sorc lvl 2 means that you can still have CoB, hydra or crown. You can still take another Pegasus, Mage lord or standard as well.

I agree that some of the restrictions are quite silly. Like, why shouldn't the supreme sorceress be able to have the pendant? The problem is really the 1+ armor together with pendant.

The biggest problem I have with the ETC restrictions is that all abilities for our sorceresses gets useless... Yes, the DE magic phase unrestricted is just silly, but losing all of the benefits is a bit much imo.

[Daeron]

I had to read and double check some rules three times to make sure (the first two times I had different answers). Hmmpf. Confusing.

[Prince fabulas]

I agree it is confusing but I think the restrictions are overall quite good.

However I don't see why the L4 shouldn't be able to have PoK.

I said this on Friday on the Warhammer Forum as soon as the restrictions came out.

[Scyloc]

They hit DE hard this year even though they did not perform especially well last year. The 25 DE armies present last year averaged 9,79 BP per battle.

This year, they removed a couple of the reasonable builds from last year even though they in no way were over the top.
For instance:
Dual SS + sac dagger (one of the more succesful builds with 10,4 BP in average)
Flying Circus (which really did not perform well last year. Why comp it??)

They also comped other strange builds.
Why limit us to 2 rending star assasins? Only one player brought 3 rending star assasins last year, and even though he is a strong player, he performed poorly with the list. Why comp it?

I agree that the lv2 PoK on pegasus sorc is comped too hard (unintentionally), but everyone will bring Master with PoK, Dragonhelm, on Dark Peg anyway, so it doesnt really matter much.
Same goes for PoK on lv4, the master is so much better.

All i all i am a bit frustrated with draft 1, and feel they gave DE a furhter comp hit for no reason.

Strangely enough they left the Dragonlord builds untouched, and thats still a strong build even if difficult to play.

[Prince fabulas]

Scyloc Yes I agree the Assassin comp is too strict.

The triple assassin build did well for France in 2011 and he didn't have a L4 on shadow (L4 was death with L2 Shadow).
But with a strong player.
It didn't perform so well at 6 Nations (although France won) and they switched to a different build 5 Pegs for ETC.
I think the 3 RS Assassin shock value is gone.

The double L4 with Sac dagger seemed to me quite a strong but defensive build that was not really over the top. It seems to me that it's success was due to relatively strong players using it.

And Peg spam is not too strong as the first two pegs have excellent builds (PoK and CloakStone) however as the magic items are shared out they get progressively less powerful. Plus you won't have a strong magic phase.

Also we won't see many L4 PoK (if allowed) even one would be nice.

Thinking about it CoK Bus it seems very dodgy.

With no lord and only a T3 2W pendant hero in the bus it doesn't look very strong to me.
Maybe with pegs?

I just think if the VC bus was not viable last year (only one or two countries took it and one had his infantry army stolen just before the event the other scored 34 points I think (will back this up with some research tonight if I have time)).

So if a VC regenerating bus is not good enough (too vulnerable to cannons &c). Then it won't work for us.

The Dragon build looks the best by far to me at the moment.

[Dyvim tvar]

The Dragon build looks the best by far to me at the moment.

Dragon is good ... if you aren't facing a bunch of cannons. You could still do an ASF Executioner horde build that would match up well against lots of opponents.

[Setomidor]

Agreed, I think the Dragon build is viable as long as you can avoid mass-cannon opponents (which you normally can at the ETC). What really makes it work in my opinion is the max 4 dice cap on Shadow magic.

Our local tournaments usually runs the ETC rules but with things like the 4 dice cap on Shadow / Death removed. In such cases, the risk of running into Occam's is a lot higher, both because more people will bring Shadow magic and because the odds of getting the spell through increases considerably when cast with 5 dice instead of 4.

Personally I think that Executioner's Axe builds are very good and will be more common, especially since Monsters and Monstrous Cav are so popular. I've had great success with a mixed Lvl4 Shadow (5 dice cap) and Exec Axe list (11 straight wins!), running the Lord with a BG unit sporting the ASF banner. Enfeebling Foe is actually what makes this list so outstanding as it makes your Lord very hard to kill.

[Daeron]

Personally I think that Executioner's Axe builds are very good and will be more common, especially since Monsters and Monstrous Cav are so popular.

The 20 BG with ASF unit is very hard but fragile to missile fire. And sure, the Lord is going to hit and hit hard, but the BGs still hit with S4 and no armor piercing. So it seems like a very good unit .. but at 370 points for 20 wounds with T3 and 5+ AS I'm not sure. It would be effective against HE's though.

It's an interesting build, but the Giant blade is cheaper, doesn't strike last and only against T6 or 2+ AS do you notice a difference. Give those BGs the banner of murder, which is cheaper, and they may outperform more units, including 1+ AS opponents, I think. It should also leave enough points for a somewhat tooled up Sorc within the comp. I think the Lore of Metal will be an interesting one with the meta they created.

This would allow you to still take the ASF BSB Executioner horde, which also synch fairly well with Lore of Metal by the looks of it, but that's just guessing on my end, not experience.

How about something like:
- Lord, Giant blade, full mundane armor (some points left for protection and tools)
- Sorc, level 4, Metal
- CoB
- BSB Master, Full mundane armor, Banner of Hag Graef
- 30 Corsairs, FC, SSS
- 3 units of Dark Riders
- 2 units of Harpies
- 30 Executioners, full command (BSB goes here)
- 20 BGs, Mus, Std, Banner of Murder (Lord goes here)
Some points are left for details

Doesn't look like a competition army, but sure looks like fun Perhaps the Corsairs need to be replaced with RXBs to safeguard a Sorc with guiding eye and get some chaff shot down.

[Prince fabulas]

The problem I find with the Ex Ax build is the same as the chaos chosen warriors.

It's quite hard to get into combat with high points targets because they know they can't beat you.

Also what happens as your EX's walk across the board and get shot by cannons (sometimes possibly enfilade).

The dragon build can be surprisingly good against cannons.

For example take:
2 x Harpies
3 x Dr
Pok Peg.

These guys go for the cannons.

Your dragon can slink around until you get an opening and kill something.

Command radius of 18" helps.

I have learned that it's often not worth risking even one cannon shot as it can very easily kill the rider taking away your Ld 10.

And maim the Dragon who then may have a stupid reaction like gaurding the body or running around until he gets shot again.

Remember you can hide dragons (and Hydra usually not enough hiding places for chariots) behind hills, buildings and impassable terrain in ETC comp.

You rarely win big but on paper it looks a lot worse.

[L1qw1d]

as someone that disagrees with most of the philosophy, I do concede with some of your points, especially <quote> What i like with the current restrictions is that they're still not banning items like the Pendant, they're just forcing us to give up other stuff instead if we want it. </quote>

I like it when circumstances (not just an opponent) makes us play better/ harder/ stronger.

[Dyvim tvar]

It's an interesting build, but the Giant blade is cheaper, doesn't strike last and only against T6 or 2+ AS do you notice a difference. Give those BGs the banner of murder, which is cheaper, and they may outperform more units, including 1+ AS opponents, I think. It should also leave enough points for a somewhat tooled up Sorc within the comp. I think the Lore of Metal will be an interesting one with the meta they created.

This would allow you to still take the ASF BSB Executioner horde, which also synch fairly well with Lore of Metal by the looks of it, but that's just guessing on my end, not experience.

The Giant Blade falls short mostly because of the lack of multiple wounds. When fighting monstrous cavalry or something like a steamtank, the d3 wounds can be critical. That being said, I do like the fact that you can take the ASF Exec horde in the same army, so that may be a worthwhile trade in the end.

[Setomidor]

I agree, the D3 wounds is what makes it really good. :)

Prince Fabulas has a point that opponents who are aware of the Axe can stay away to avoid getting beaten up, but that also means that the enemy will have a hard time winning! Repeater crossbows and a BSB Pegasus with Pendant are always able to rack up a few points to turn such a matchup into a 12-8. That said, the Axe is of course even better if playing regular tournaments based on the ETC ruleset, as the Axe is still pretty uncommon and you might surprise a few opponents who doesn't expect it. I've had TK players charge Sphinxes in the flank of my BG, my Lord makes-way to the side and averages 5.8 wounds at I8, most often killing the enemy outright. Reform to face any direction (possibly into a small conga if your meta-game allows it), and charge an unwary target in your turn.

[Killerk]

I'm in opposition to the ETC comp, there are better way's to make a more balanced game. In the Carrot and Stick approach, ETC almost exclusively uses the stick in it's attempt at balancing, and as all restrictions they have a negative impact in the long run, and is viewed negatively.
A similar balance can be achieved by the "carrot" approach. Giving bonuses to weaker armies, and limiting the most broken things in the game. In result most players are left with a strong army, or with many bonuses, in both cases are players are happy and the comp pack is viewed positively.

The Comp. from year to year, has a tendency to comp previous years most popular army build's. This is done to enforce change. In the long run it also limits the number of possible build's, until to a point where changing say a unit for Corsairs for WE is considered variety. IMHO it's just sad.

And the last point on why the ETC comp is bad. From year to year the Meta game changes, while the ETC com does not take that in to consideration in any meaningful way, example. First big elite units then Double hydras and aboms were considered broken, then it was MI, and now MC. No one fears big units of elite infantry, as they have serious opposition. The ETC comp does not recognize thing's that ceased to be considered broken.

The ETC choose of enforcing balance IMHO is flawed at the concept of adding new restrictions. It has only one direction it can go restricting every thing until you have no viable choices.

With the axe, there is too many if's, and it's a huge point sink, for it to be real viable option.

[Setomidor]

I don't have a strong opinion for or against the ETC, but compared to the WPS-comp system from back in the days I think its a wast improvement. That said, I mostly care because most of the tournament I attend use (a derivative of) the ETC rules.

With the axe, there is too many if's, and it's a huge point sink, for it to be real viable option.

Actually I tend to regard it the other way. As I see it, DE have three plausible ways to combat the surge in MC / 1+AS / Monster threats;

- Bolt Thowers: Hard to deploy and use due to 8:th edition Line of sight (everything gets Hard cover)
- Magic: Metal and Shadow are both great; but fickle. Lacking Winds when they're needed the most and you'll lose.
- The Axe (or Giant Blade): 280 pts worth (including the ASF banner) for an option that doesn't rely on magic or Line of Sight and will always "work".

Of course, I prefer to bring more than one of the above (currently it's Axe + Lvl4 Shadow + Lvl1 Metal), but I'm convinced that "Mass MC" is one of the armytypes that you need to be able to deal with if you want to win in the current meta.

[Dyvim tvar]

Instead of or in addition to the Giant Blade--and costing less--there is Crimson Death, Soulrender, Whip of Agony and mundane Great Weapons. The two-handed weapons all work well with Armor of Darkness if on foot.