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New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS 
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xFallenx wrote:
Trax, mate, please stop with all the doom & gloom. Your credibility slips with almost every post. None of us barring a very select few have had the chance to get a game in. At the end of the day, I trust the opinions of the Druchii.net vets & Ben Curry's time developing the new book over drippy eyed pessimism every time.


Aside the fact that my... "credibilty" in an online board doesn't mean anything to me (or anybody, I guess), you misread my posts as 100% pessimism, as it seems, which is just not true. There are many really nice things (mostly concerning troops and new special rules, magic items are alright etc., albeit there are some duds, too, fleetmaster for instance).

The credibility-ruining (*chuckle*) doom and gloom mostly comes from my stand on the lore of Black Magic I guess and yeah, it will be alright, somehow. But what's not to get with the points I've made? The old Black Magic used to be better in most regards (and wasn't an auto-pick, far from it), the attribute is really... special (and it's best used vs. monsters and war machines, which is terrible counter-intuitive and unfluffy, don't you think? Shouldn't Black Magic shred lowlifes and not the strongest?), there are some total duds (Chillwind, low (and only that) version of Word of Pain), most of them got nerfed and/or are actually worse than rulebook spells. Purple sun vs. our Horror? How does this work out?

Anyways, all I'm saying is this in the end: I'm sad that I'm most excited about being able to use Lore of Life now instead of getting a great own Lore. If my "credibility" slips with this stance, so be it.


Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:35 pm
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I like lore of Light myself ;) Net of Amyntok specifically... with Word of Pain <.<
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Also, Fleetmaster can be amazing. Kit him out not to kill enemies, but to stay alive (somehow, I don't have all the info) and get him into challenge, making the unit unbreakable for as long as he *doesn't* kill his opponent.

Purple Sun vs. Black Horror? I don't know... maybe aside from the ward save dud the fact that it kills elves and chaos much better than Purple Sun does? and the fact that the same lore has inbuilt reduction to S?

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:38 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Dark + Shadow?
Have you considered Dark + Heavens level 1 for Iceshard Blizzard? -1Ld in a signature spell ;)


This.
The only problem with heavens is that harmonic convergence is amazing, but almost useless on DE (apart from the armour save re-roll).Otherwise I'm a big fan of heavens board control and Druchii troops.

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Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:41 pm
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Light.

Birona's Timewarp on one of the double frenzied units.

Slaughter.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:50 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Light.

Birona's Timewarp on one of the double frenzied units.

Slaughter.


That's still 3 dice you need to commit to be fairly certain of success.

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My Hobby Thread

Stats since I started playing again in 2013
W/L/D
Total: 16/21/1
vs. Demons: 0/2/0
vs. Dwarfs: 1/2/0
vs. Empire: 2/4/0
vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
vs. Skaven: 4/4/0
vs. Tomb Kings: 0/1/0
vs. Warriors of Chaos: 0/3/0
vs. Wood Elves: 2/1/0


Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:51 pm
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Just pointing out options.
I might even take a level 1 beasts mage and use the beastmaster mini for it, hope for Transformation of Kadon, otherwise take sigature.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:53 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Also, Fleetmaster can be amazing. Kit him out not to kill enemies, but to stay alive (somehow, I don't have all the info) and get him into challenge, making the unit unbreakable for as long as he *doesn't* kill his opponent.

Purple Sun vs. Black Horror? I don't know... maybe aside from the ward save dud the fact that it kills elves and chaos much better than Purple Sun does? and the fact that the same lore has inbuilt reduction to S?


Fleetmaster *would* be amazing if he ever got into a challenge. I can only see this happening against Brets and Chaos and against those he might as well drop dead in round one with his 50p of magic gear. What to give him, Charmed shield and 4++, I guess, don't think you're going to get anything more out of it, might work for a round but this roundblock sounds pretty expensive. Against all other armies: Why accept the challenge? And it's not like he's hidden like an assassin.

Black Horror tests against S which is inferior to an I check - there are way more tough enemies I want to "6dice" from the board with low Initiative than low Strength, Ogres, many Monsters, MI, MC, etc. - anyway, let's even say it's on par since it obviously depends on your enemy: Purple Sun doesn't allow a ward save and for some strange reason the Black Horror suddenly has to be the first auto kill spell that allows ward saves. I don't know, maybe it's a nod to an upcoming 9th edition and a following rework of the RB lores, could be... And lastly: Our Lore Attribute... it doesn't even work with the Vortex while the Purple Sun might as well pay for itself with some leeched PD via Death Lore Attribute. "Inbuilt S reduction" sounds nice, but my opinion on such spell combos is pretty clear: Spell combos sound terrific on paper, but getting a 12+ WoP and a 15+ Black Horror through in the same turn is pretty unlikely. Sure. Can happen. Can.


Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:56 pm
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Why accept the challenge? Because otherwise your combat character won't see combat. If it's just a champion to accept a challenge, well who cares then? You shouldn't need Unbreakable in those odds.

50p magic allowance is a problem... otherwise I'd field him with Black Amulet.

I'm somehow not worried about Ogres or Monsters with Core Witch Elves that ASF. MC can be come an issue, but that's why we have a S7 bolt thrower that can drive by their flank and penetrate ranks ;).

I think our Lore attribute works best with the spell you'd least expect it to - Shroud of Despair - fly between multiple units, 6-dice shroud, cripple their LD and shower them with lots of hits. Yes, the lore attribute is largely negligible, but at the same time:

Fire: d3 to cast is nice, but who uses a high level fire mage these days? level 1/2 will rarely even cast both spells if another wizard is present
Shadow: I have honestly never used the attribute, my characters are rarely the same troop type.
Death: This one's amazing, but really only with Purple Sun, the other damage spells don't cause enough wounds to be very effective
Metal: This lore might as well not have an attribute since without it its damage spells would be useless
Beasts: It's a cool little thing rarely used (I'll have to double check if it includes monsters... hmm S8 K-Beast)
Heavens: How often do you actually get to target flying units with it? It's a nice bonus but not overwhelming
Life: healing is nice and can pick up the odd miscast wound but if your wizard gets into combat they are likely to die before they can heal again.
Light: extra painful to undead and demons... very situational and definitely not why you take the lore.

So in comparison I would say Dark Magic attribute comes out pretty good, it's a little extra bonus you get with every spell that targets the enemy (aside from Black Horror). not the top of the line, but not bad either.

Now it has nothing on Shield of Saphery which is so good that sometimes you cast spells just to get the attribute effect (Yes, I had a high elf player cast apotheosis on spearmen champ... for ward save boost on his PG)

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:44 pm
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Trax wrote:
xFallenx wrote:
Trax, mate, please stop with all the doom & gloom. Your credibility slips with almost every post. None of us barring a very select few have had the chance to get a game in. At the end of the day, I trust the opinions of the Druchii.net vets & Ben Curry's time developing the new book over drippy eyed pessimism every time.


Aside the fact that my... "credibilty" in an online board doesn't mean anything to me (or anybody, I guess), you misread my posts as 100% pessimism, as it seems, which is just not true. There are many really nice things (mostly concerning troops and new special rules, magic items are alright etc., albeit there are some duds, too, fleetmaster for instance).

The credibility-ruining (*chuckle*) doom and gloom mostly comes from my stand on the lore of Black Magic I guess and yeah, it will be alright, somehow. But what's not to get with the points I've made? The old Black Magic used to be better in most regards (and wasn't an auto-pick, far from it), the attribute is really... special (and it's best used vs. monsters and war machines, which is terrible counter-intuitive and unfluffy, don't you think? Shouldn't Black Magic shred lowlifes and not the strongest?), there are some total duds (Chillwind, low (and only that) version of Word of Pain), most of them got nerfed and/or are actually worse than rulebook spells. Purple sun vs. our Horror? How does this work out?

Anyways, all I'm saying is this in the end: I'm sad that I'm most excited about being able to use Lore of Life now instead of getting a great own Lore. If my "credibility" slips with this stance, so be it.


Fair enough. The points you raise here are valid and well articulated, I apologize for focusing on you alone as there are others maybe a bit more pessimistic.

My point about 'credibility' is that some of what you say is 100% valid and interesting and while I may not have commented on the points I agree on, I find myself progressively skimming your newer posts as doom'n'gloom. Internet credibility isn't worth much, but I find it unfortunate when I find myself treating anyone's posts in this way.

As far as the new version of our lore, I'm leaning towards it being pretty obviously offensive, but I think that it'll really shine once coupled with the characteristics on our units, heroes & items. No one took our prior lore very seriously around here (shadow mongers) except for myself. I loved it, and my personal feelings on the newest version are even more optimistic.... I'll touch back on this subject in the new year and let you know if I feel the same. :)

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Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:53 pm
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I loved the old Dark Magic ;) Used it almost every time.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:54 pm
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Yeah, the Amulet would have been Golden, that's why his limited budget is all the more puzzling, but how many combat chars are you going to steer into his unit? It's not like corsairs are cavalry, flying or anything of the like. How many combat chars do you encouter in normal infantry units regularly? It's pretty often the AST and that one might be happy about going to the back rank.

The Scourgerunner could be our answer to MC, yes, but did we field lots of RBT last edition to bring them down? Not really, why? Because hitting with enough of them was tricky. The Scourgerunner now costs double the RBT's price and hits almost always at 4+ or even 5+, which means he's not realiable at all in regard to his sole purpose. So, don't you think double the number of RBTs, positioned at the flank, will do whatever the SR are supposed to do - just more easily and reliably?

About the Lore attribute... I guess I've finally made peace with it. There are worse (Shadow.. and boy did it not stop DE from using the lore), but so many which are really incredibly useful. You named them, but to emphasize: Death's extra PD are no laughing matter, with extra PD being so rarely seen these days (granted, we've still got it...), and Life in a monster mash list? Yes please. I don't even think it's about odd miscast wounds, but rather your dragons and hydras that are thankful for it (sadly, no steamtank around... silly regrowing steam engines), and yeah, the final nail in the coffin is the Shield of Saphery. I admit i wanted something close in power since elven magic should be elven magic - defensive or destructive.

And what's funny is (especially in comparison to the HE's): The attribute wouldn't even be OP if it procced every single time, but it rather proccs up to 17% with two dice (which is a fair number of dice for some of our spells) or shy of 42% with three dice. And what it gives is 1.2 extra wounds. And this is bad, really bad, in comparison to the better attributes.

BUT, and there always is a but, and that's how I realized the attribute isn't complete garbage: Doombolt (or even chillwind) with a procced attribute possibily obliterates monsters in one go. Hell, a buffed Doombolt has a fair chance at killing a dragon outright (no Star Dragon ofc) and damaging its rider severely (depending on his gear). A small comfort, but still a comfort for me.

@xFallenx

No need to apologize, no harm done. And as you can still see in this newer post, my Black Magic doom'n'gloom even starts to lighten up :P

And for our old Black Magic: I used it pretty often. Great for dragon sorcs, great for double Supreme sorc (on one of them that is, obviously^^). Anyway, it's just different, so I guess, It will be alright (I've written this way too often during the last pages, but I think it will be...^^).


Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:12 am
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By 'here' I should clarify: Calgary. There are three DE players besides myself in the city(that I know personally) all of which play Shadow exclusively, two of which were actually shocked by some of the cheap combos I was regularly able to cue up. The general consensus on D.net is that while interesting, it was never the most competitive.

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Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:17 am
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Quote:
How many combat chars do you encouter in normal infantry units regularly?


When I'm fighting High Elves? All the time, WoC will always have something (they will challenge anyway), Ogres are all the same, Demons will either have infantry characters or single ones (mostly flying though so trickier)

Characters in units are more common that it would appear on paper.

Quote:
The Scourgerunner could be our answer to MC, yes, but did we field lots of RBT last edition to bring them down? Not really, why?


Because killing a single MC shooting from the front and then losing the immobile RBTs was not efficient. Sure Scourgerunners will fall to enough shooting, but that's an argument that can be put with anything.

And I was always underwhelmed with Death's capability of generating more dice (but it may have been my dice, rolling 3 hits on Caress of Laniph against a High Elf which results in no wounds whatsoever)

I wonder if we can put out dual supreme sorc again... one with Death and one with Dark... dual vortex in the field!

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:37 am
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Dalamar wrote:
Quote:
How many combat chars do you encouter in normal infantry units regularly?


When I'm fighting High Elves? All the time, WoC will always have something (they will challenge anyway), Ogres are all the same, Demons will either have infantry characters or single ones (mostly flying though so trickier)

Characters in units are more common that it would appear on paper.



But that's the problem right there: High Elf characters might as well go to the back of the unit, in 1on1 situations they are way behind our characters in output and an BSB is really the only non-mage I see in play atm, but this might be my local meta. I don't play Ogres, guess that might be a point, but on the other hand an Ogre can put the Fleemaster down with some not so lucky rolls, same with the WoC Lord. And which Demon player that puts heralds for the Loci effects into his units wouldn't be happy to put the herald behind the troops - he wouldn't survive a single round of combat anyway. Well, the Nurgle one might.

Not to forget: This is already hypothetical and even if it works: What's it to us, what if we get such a character in a challenge? What's our bonus? It has to be used in a roadblocking manner and you can probably achieve the same effect more consistently with spending 200p on corsairs (or bigger anvil units, whatever the type). Steadfast is not unbreakable but in most cases it might as well be. Especially the armies mentioned above tend to not have unlimited ranks, so if you want to tarpit them, it's often pretty doable - and being able to tiptoe around such a tarpit or some such is not an argument, since the same can be said about the Fleetmaster's unit.


Tue Oct 01, 2013 1:00 am
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If HE puts their combat character to the back.. well, then you don't need to be unbreakable since you'll win that combat since they're losing out on combat potential while yours is still there hacking away.

Quote:
Steadfast is not unbreakable but in most cases it might as well be.


Have you seen the new Dark Magic? ;) We'll be fighting other traitorous Druchii as well, you can no longer rely on steadfast to carry the day.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:08 am
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Dalamar wrote:
Have you seen the new Dark Magic? ;) We'll be fighting other traitorous Druchii as well, you can no longer rely on steadfast to carry the day.


I will play some games with Despair, until then I reserve better judgement^^


Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:11 am
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While reading Word of Pain I noticed that "to a minimum of 1" is only for S and I. That may be useful


Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:26 am
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Oh, nice catch. To be fair, troops with only WS3 or less are most often not my main concern, but free hits are free hits and you may as well get a complete shutdown on shooting (albeit not that often, obviously). On the other hand, I wouldn't even be surprised if it's an oversight...

On that note: No clear-cut ruling on WS0 and having attacks in the profile or is there?


Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:37 am
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Yes there is. a model with WS0 can't attack and is hit automatically in combat. BRB p.4

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:48 am
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Slave on the Altar

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The new book seems to be a little over the top in some respects(though final judgement will be made in due time after it comes out). I mean having access to all eight lores isn't very Dark Elfy is it. I mean really Dark Elves casting Life, and Light is laughable really.


Last edited by Vurath on Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:08 am, edited 3 times in total.



Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:50 am
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Dark Elves casting Light magic? I already wrote a long post about it.

But any sensible demon summoner (which Dark Elves are) has backup in case things go wrong (which Light magic is)

Life is a little trickier, but Shade clans live in the wilderness and outside of Dark Elven society, do they not have magic users? I'm sure they do. They would more easily attune to Beasts and Life magic.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:53 am
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Dark Elf tree huggers, Dalamar? :shock: :lol: !lol!

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Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:58 am
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We all need to embrace our inner treehugger now and then ;)
Isn't Saphery just next to Tree-hugging Avelorn after all, Swordmaster? ;)

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:05 am
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Slave on the Altar

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Well, it's happening anyway so as flimsy as it might be, all the rule book lores are now part of the Dark Elf arsenal. It's going to be another one of those editions were everyone hates the Dark Elves, ah well. And if you're a High Elf player, well they know the drill by now I suppose. Dark Elves do it better;)


Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:14 am
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Dalamar wrote:
Yes there is. a model with WS0 can't attack and is hit automatically in combat. BRB p.4


I can see that it can't defend itself, but I don't see that own attacks are explicitely forbidden. You might infer that, and it makes sense, of course, but RAW I'm not so sure - at least not from this single text passage.


Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:15 am
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