New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

[Xuza]

Well, I for one kind of like the new lore. Even though pod will be kind of meh if it's only on the casters unit.
Doombolt sound okish if str 5, good if str 6. Sad to see bladewind/word of pain go.. But if it's ws/In that word of pain lowers now it can be farily pontent anyway.
Soul stealer is quite unclear as of know, might be good.

Black horror is more or less how I expected it to be. I didn't expect it to ignore wardsaves since no other new armybook has gotten a spell similiar to the rulebook spells that ignore all saves. Or not one I can think of atleast. If that is the exact wording it seems to ignore regen atleast. Sure str test isn't as great as I , but you can't get all I guess.

Despair looks awesome, can be quite a game changer.

[Trax]

I think everyone is looking at Power of Darkness the wrong way.

Look at it as a +1S buff for a unit that costs no power dice if it's successful (because level 4 will always cast it on 2 dice unless she loses concentration) that may even give you extra dice. Now whether there's ward save allowed or not, and how strong soul stealer is will depend on how often this spell will be used. But +1S in a key combat can be priceless.

^ This. Thanks Dal, the German pessimism is getting palpable.

The issue is still if you can only target the unit the sorceress is part of though then the choice becomes mediocre at best, terrible at worst.

Sweden to the rescue:

And that's the main issue right here. Sure, it might be a "free buff". I'm even okay with the fact, that the free buff might hurt my Sorc (but grant another PD if so), but who wants to melee buff his Sorc taxi? I don't. If it was a defensive buff (yeah, makes no sense), it could be useful. But this way? No thanks. You had to obliterate your enemy so no one's striking back at your sorc (to be fair, DEs *can* do that...), but when do you cast it, if you're already in melee with her? Risking to lower her wounds so a single (or two) wounds might finish her off? I still don't like or probably "get" the spell.

To be fair, we can't be totally sure if it really targets her unit only, but the German card reads this way.

[Zenith]

Rumour has it that the executioners/Black guard box also contains open-skull helmets for the executioners.
Also KB is removed and is replaced by doing D3 wounds. for every six rolling to wound.
I'm sorry guys, just wishlisting now.

[Trax]

Rumour has it that the executioners/Black guard box also contains open-skull helmets for the executioners.
Also KB is removed and is replaced by doing D3 wounds. for every six rolling to wound.
I'm sorry guys, just wishlisting now.

Now I hate you. Happy? Are you happy?

[Liquidedust]

Rumour has it that the executioners/Black guard box also contains open-skull helmets for the executioners.
Also KB is removed and is replaced by doing D3 wounds. for every six rolling to wound.
I'm sorry guys, just wishlisting now.

Now I hate you. Happy? Are you happy?

Well I still do not like the change to d3 wounds and no KB if that is the case. They become better at inflicing damage against everything that can easily avoid them (sans Ogres I guess) but 33% worse off against 1+ single wound models and 25% worse off against 2+ single wound models.

They are about the same against infantry (as long as said infantry only has 4+ saves at best). And you're way worse off against character bunkers.

So in short, better against 10% of the units out there, worse against half of the remainder and the same against the other half of the remainder.

It really doesn't seem like a nice tradeoff.

So overall, more expensive than before and worse off against 45%, same against 45%, better off against 10% . . . .

[Dalamar]

Unless the attack ignores armor and does d3 wounds on a 6... we don't know for sure so it's too early to speculate.

But we do know what Corsairs look like and what special rules they have (they lost Slavers!)

[Liquidedust]

Unless the attack ignores armor and does d3 wounds on a 6... we don't know for sure so it's too early to speculate.

But we do know what Corsairs look like and what special rules they have (they lost Slavers!)

Ahhhhwww 10+ still , would have loved 6-8 sized darts with handbows. Now they are pretty much only viable when you do non-cauldron lists compared to the awesome that is Witch Elves Core.

Sea Dragon Cloaks still have the same rules?

[Trax]

@Liquidedust

Zenith said he was wishlisting, I'd really like to see d3 wounds actually, Killing Blow blows nowadays. There's hardly any cavalry that'd charge Executioners anyway.

New rumours from Warseer, haven't seen 'em here so far:

CoB got a 4+ Ward save is a chariot can join units i remember 5 W with 5T (not sure exactly) all units in 6" reroll missed rolls for wounding 5+ Ward save for WE 6+ for anything else; Bound magic a unit in 12" gets Frenzy or if frenzy already on the model/unit +2 Attacks
WE 11 Points
Coldones 2 Attacks
Medusa shrine (dont know english name at the moment) gives +1LD for any darkelves and -1LD for anything else in 6" It is a chariot and dont know if it can join units.
Medusa itselves got a ranged attack multishot: 4, S4 Killing blow(maybe armor penetration, dont know exactly) any model in basecontact hast to do an initiative test or gets a S4 hit nor armor allowed Killing blow.
Bolthrower 35 slaves special
Hydra A 3+ current life points helaing wounds at end of turn for each wound roll a w6 at 4+ gains back a lost wound
"Kraken" ws5 A5 S5 T5 W5 reroll leadership tests; if all attacks do hit additionally w6 s7 auto hits.
Magic lore attribute can inflict upon 3 or 4 w6 extra hits S1 armor piercing
Sisters of slaughter : ws6 I6 A2 4+ward save if in combat no ranking bonus and no parry (shield single weapon) Edit: if enemy got more WS or S you do hit and wound better

___

Worst offender would be S/T5 *both* for the Lharybdiss. I don't need another S5 monster, the Hydra covers that perfectly and every attacks hitting happens once in a blue moon - unless beastmaster chars confer hatred or some such, that *could* be interesting.

Sisters sound more and more silly, wonder what they should be costed...

CoB with its Frenzy being a bound spell doesn't even sound half bad and the improved MP as 6" buff... nice. But... no more Stubborn for Khainites as it seems. Sucks for Witch speed bumps.

Oh, and the Hydra regen does indeed sound way better than I feared, even though it may get oneshot now, if it doesn't happen some recovered wounds are pretty much a given (instead of a coin toss). I kinda like it considering it got cheaper.

edit:
Scratch what I wrote about the Hydra, misread it: If it really is ONE single wound per round per 4+, it really is pretty bad, but I guess it's more in line with its cost, still.

[Liquidedust]

@Liquidedust

Zenith said he was wishlisting, I'd really like to see d3 wounds actually, Killing Blow blows nowadays. There's hardly any cavalry that'd charge Executioners anyway.

New rumours from Warseer, haven't seen 'em here so far:

CoB got a 4+ Ward save is a chariot can join units i remember 5 W with 5T (not sure exactly) all units in 6" reroll missed rolls for wounding 5+ Ward save for WE 6+ for anything else; Bound magic a unit in 12" gets Frenzy or if frenzy already on the model/unit +2 Attacks
WE 11 Points
Coldones 2 Attacks
Medusa shrine (dont know english name at the moment) gives +1LD for any darkelves and -1LD for anything else in 6" It is a chariot and dont know if it can join units.
Medusa itselves got a ranged attack multishot: 4, S4 Killing blow(maybe armor penetration, dont know exactly) any model in basecontact hast to do an initiative test or gets a S4 hit nor armor allowed Killing blow.
Bolthrower 35 slaves special
Hydra A 3+ current life points helaing wounds at end of turn for each wound roll a w6 at 4+ gains back a lost wound
"Kraken" ws5 A5 S5 T5 W5 reroll leadership tests; if all attacks do hit additionally w6 s7 auto hits.
Magic lore attribute can inflict upon 3 or 4 w6 extra hits S1 armor piercing
Sisters of slaughter : ws6 I6 A2 4+ward save if in combat no ranking bonus and no parry (shield single weapon) Edit: if enemy got more WS or S you do hit and wound better

___

Worst offender would be S/T5 *both* for the Lharybdiss. I don't need another S5 monster, the Hydra covers that perfectly and every attacks hitting happens once in a blue moon - unless beastmaster chars confer hatred or some such, that *could* be interesting.

Sisters sound more and more silly, wonder what they should be costed...

CoB with its Frenzy being a bound spell doesn't even sound half bad and the improved MP as 6" buff... nice. But... no more Stubborn for Khainites as it seems. Sucks for Witch speed bumps.

Oh, and the Hydra regen does indeed sound way better than I feared, even though it may get oneshot now, if it doesn't happen some recovered wounds are pretty much a given (instead of a coin toss). I kinda like it considering it got cheaper.

edit:
Scratch what I wrote about the Hydra, misread it: If it really is ONE single wound per round per 4+, it really is pretty bad, but I guess it's more in line with its cost, still.

The guy with Kharybdiss at S5 misread, he corrected himself and posted S7 now

[Kheirakh]

@Liquidedust

Zenith said he was wishlisting, I'd really like to see d3 wounds actually, Killing Blow blows nowadays. There's hardly any cavalry that'd charge Executioners anyway.

New rumours from Warseer, haven't seen 'em here so far:

CoB got a 4+ Ward save is a chariot can join units i remember 5 W with 5T (not sure exactly) all units in 6" reroll missed rolls for wounding 5+ Ward save for WE 6+ for anything else; Bound magic a unit in 12" gets Frenzy or if frenzy already on the model/unit +2 Attacks
WE 11 Points
Coldones 2 Attacks
Medusa shrine (dont know english name at the moment) gives +1LD for any darkelves and -1LD for anything else in 6" It is a chariot and dont know if it can join units.
Medusa itselves got a ranged attack multishot: 4, S4 Killing blow(maybe armor penetration, dont know exactly) any model in basecontact hast to do an initiative test or gets a S4 hit nor armor allowed Killing blow.
Bolthrower 35 slaves special
Hydra A 3+ current life points helaing wounds at end of turn for each wound roll a w6 at 4+ gains back a lost wound
"Kraken" ws5 A5 S5 T5 W5 reroll leadership tests; if all attacks do hit additionally w6 s7 auto hits.
Magic lore attribute can inflict upon 3 or 4 w6 extra hits S1 armor piercing
Sisters of slaughter : ws6 I6 A2 4+ward save if in combat no ranking bonus and no parry (shield single weapon) Edit: if enemy got more WS or S you do hit and wound better

___

Worst offender would be S/T5 *both* for the Lharybdiss. I don't need another S5 monster, the Hydra covers that perfectly and every attacks hitting happens once in a blue moon - unless beastmaster chars confer hatred or some such, that *could* be interesting.

Sisters sound more and more silly, wonder what they should be costed...

CoB with its Frenzy being a bound spell doesn't even sound half bad and the improved MP as 6" buff... nice. But... no more Stubborn for Khainites as it seems. Sucks for Witch speed bumps.

Oh, and the Hydra regen does indeed sound way better than I feared, even though it may get oneshot now, if it doesn't happen some recovered wounds are pretty much a given (instead of a coin toss). I kinda like it considering it got cheaper.

edit:
Scratch what I wrote about the Hydra, misread it: If it really is ONE single wound per round per 4+, it really is pretty bad, but I guess it's more in line with its cost, still.

The same source from Warseer corrected that Kharibdyss has S7.

Hydra sounds actually quite nice if the "new regeneration" works like that. I understand that the 4+ roll is for every lost wound. But I wonder what would happen with shooting for example? Is it gonna be like: first hit with cannon and taking 6 wounds ("Well, the hydra is not dead yet, let's see if it can do "regrowth" in the end of the turn"). Then the enemy would also shoot it with another cannon (remember, hydra is not dead) doing 6 wounds again, some crossbows doing 4 wounds and then some bows doing another 4 wound. Would that mean that the dark elf player would roll 20 dice and hope that he gets at least 16 4+ rolls so the hydra would not die? Sorry, it's hard to describe my thoughts but I hope you understood. I hope the rules are written clearly.

[Helle]

edit:
Scratch what I wrote about the Hydra, misread it: If it really is ONE single wound per round per 4+, it really is pretty bad, but I guess it's more in line with its cost, still.

I read it the way that if it lost 3 wounds, you roll 3d6 and get +1W for every roll of 4+. So it can be completly healed in one turn. Do I get this wrong?

[Liquidedust]

@Liquidedust

Zenith said he was wishlisting, I'd really like to see d3 wounds actually, Killing Blow blows nowadays. There's hardly any cavalry that'd charge Executioners anyway.

New rumours from Warseer, haven't seen 'em here so far:

CoB got a 4+ Ward save is a chariot can join units i remember 5 W with 5T (not sure exactly) all units in 6" reroll missed rolls for wounding 5+ Ward save for WE 6+ for anything else; Bound magic a unit in 12" gets Frenzy or if frenzy already on the model/unit +2 Attacks
WE 11 Points
Coldones 2 Attacks
Medusa shrine (dont know english name at the moment) gives +1LD for any darkelves and -1LD for anything else in 6" It is a chariot and dont know if it can join units.
Medusa itselves got a ranged attack multishot: 4, S4 Killing blow(maybe armor penetration, dont know exactly) any model in basecontact hast to do an initiative test or gets a S4 hit nor armor allowed Killing blow.
Bolthrower 35 slaves special
Hydra A 3+ current life points helaing wounds at end of turn for each wound roll a w6 at 4+ gains back a lost wound
"Kraken" ws5 A5 S5 T5 W5 reroll leadership tests; if all attacks do hit additionally w6 s7 auto hits.
Magic lore attribute can inflict upon 3 or 4 w6 extra hits S1 armor piercing
Sisters of slaughter : ws6 I6 A2 4+ward save if in combat no ranking bonus and no parry (shield single weapon) Edit: if enemy got more WS or S you do hit and wound better

___

Worst offender would be S/T5 *both* for the Lharybdiss. I don't need another S5 monster, the Hydra covers that perfectly and every attacks hitting happens once in a blue moon - unless beastmaster chars confer hatred or some such, that *could* be interesting.

Sisters sound more and more silly, wonder what they should be costed...

CoB with its Frenzy being a bound spell doesn't even sound half bad and the improved MP as 6" buff... nice. But... no more Stubborn for Khainites as it seems. Sucks for Witch speed bumps.

Oh, and the Hydra regen does indeed sound way better than I feared, even though it may get oneshot now, if it doesn't happen some recovered wounds are pretty much a given (instead of a coin toss). I kinda like it considering it got cheaper.

edit:
Scratch what I wrote about the Hydra, misread it: If it really is ONE single wound per round per 4+, it really is pretty bad, but I guess it's more in line with its cost, still.

The same source from Warseer corrected that Kharibdyss has S7.

Hydra sounds actually quite nice if the "new regeneration" works like that. I understand that the 4+ roll is for every lost wound. But I wonder what would happen with shooting for example? Is it gonna be like: first hit with cannon and taking 6 wounds ("Well, the hydra is not dead yet, let's see if it can do "regrowth" in the end of the turn"). Then the enemy would also shoot it with another cannon (remember, hydra is not dead) doing 6 wounds again, some crossbows doing 4 wounds and then some bows doing another 4 wound. Would that mean that the dark elf player would roll 20 dice and hope that he gets at least 16 4+ rolls so the hydra would not die? Sorry, it's hard to describe my thoughts but I hope you understood. I hope the rules are written clearly.

If it works like the Slann ability, down to 0 wounds -> dead is dead -> remove from play no chance of recovering wounds

[Scyloc]

So far, with the information we have, I am not sold on our new dark magic being a main lore.

Dark Lore:
In order for a magic lore to be effective as a main lore, it has to have at least 2 key spell, the opponent cannot let through. Ideally you have 2 key ranged threat spells, and 2 key close combat oriented spells. Note some spells like Doom & Darkness fits both categories, so 2 spells equally devastating at range and in CC will do.

If you compare on of the closest contenders Lore of Death to the new Dark lore:

Doom & Darkness (-3 lds) vs Despair (-1 lds no BSB reroll):
Assuming ld9 unit within BSB range. D&D affected unit has a 66% chance to pass (on ld6 with RR), Despair affected unit has 72% to pass (on ld8 no RR).
If targeting a unit outside BSB range. D&D unit passes only 42% of the times, Despair % remains unchanged.
D&D is just clearly better in every way.

Purple Sun vs Black Horror
Black Horror does not negate ward saves. Purple Sun does.
When looking at the key units to remove. Units like Mournfangs, Ironguts, Monsters in general like Chimeraes and Terrorgheists, Crypt Horrors, Beasts of Nurgle, Plague Flies, Steam Tanks, Frost Phoenixs, Stegadons, Hell Cannons, Trolls etc. They all have I3 or less, most have I2.
Only a few of these units fail on anything but a 6 vs Black Horror.
So the question remains, apart from non threatening core infantry and some elfs, what does Black Horror Threaten that is of importance?

So far Dark Lore seems to be a suboptimal choice for main lore. But lets see when the full rules comes out next week.


Let me compare some army rules and units with the HE book (as its a great comparison):

HE Martial prowess (fight in extra rank) vs DE Murderous Prowess (RR 1s to wound):
Martial Prowess:
Pros: Martial Prowess gives a 50% damage increase to key elite units like non-horde Phoenix Guards or White Lions (33% if horded or if non horde sword masters). It also allows him to decrease frontage on his medium sized units, facilitating 12 attacks vs most monsters etc on chariot bases.
Cons: HE Characters receive no bonus, and units lose attacks (offensive power) earlier.
Murderous Prowess:
Pros: DE Characters can utilize the RR 1s to wound, which would potentially be very interesting on assassins for instance. DE MP is 16.7% dam increase from start to finish, with no strings attached.
Cons: RR 1s to wound adds 16,7% extra damage.

Having the ability to RR 1s to wound on characters is nice, especially when we get more information on what the new DE magic weapons do. There might be some hidden synergies there.
Under optimal circumstances for the HE players (for instance 21 WLs 7 wide), the HE MP is up to 3 times as good as the DE MP. (+50% vs +16.7%)
Yes HEs will loose the extra damage completely when the extra rank is gone, but WHFB for elves is all about alpha striking to wipe out enemy unit with minimal elf casualties. If elves wind up in long endurance fights we are in dire straights.
Having 50% damage in that key 1st round combat between your PGs and an enemy unit is golden, compared to having 17% extra damage from start to finish. However at some unit sizes (30 WL/PG in horde for instance) its difficult for the HE player to utilize his Martial Prowess, where we still get full bonus. He would have to go up to 40 models to get his 33% increase in offensive potential, and thats a very sizeable part of his army.
All in all HEs Martial prowess has a much higher potential for damage increase (up to +50%), but is more difficult to achieve, and when outmaneuvered he may find himself with 0% damage increase, where DEs Murderous Prowess is always applicable, straight up damage increase (fixed +16.7%).
Picking the better one is difficult. Yes at first glance. HEs much higher damage increase when facing healthy units in the correct formations is appealing, but mid/end-game, the HE player may find his units in suboptimal positions and formations.


High magic vs Dark magic.
Comparing High magic to dark magic. High magic comes out miles ahead, mainly due to a very usefull lore ability and some key spells like arcane unforging, Fiery Convocation and walk between the worlds. Without complete knowledge. So far everythings points to High Magic being superior. But we shall see next week.


8th ed Core inclusions:
HE got Silverhelms, DE get Witch Elves.
Many positive things can be said about having 2+ as, M9 core cavalry. Mobility for one. But mostly the immunity from Stomps and Thunderstomps is a great plus. On the down side, the unit is vulnerable to searing doom, which is prevelant in current metagame.
Witch Elves 3 poision attacks excel at taking down low armored enemies. And provide a good answer to rock hard units such as Plague Beasts of Nurgle and Crypt Horrors along with some monsters and most low armor units. On the down side, they suffer from frenzy which is a HUGE liability due to having to overrun and thereby the ease of which they can be redirected.

Personally i actually lean towards the DE on this, as the Witch elves in core can provide a solid threat and be very usefull in some hard to win matchups who dominate in the current meta. Daemons and Vampires. But Silverhelms are definately great as well.


Monsters:
Frost/flame Phoenix vs Hydra/Charybdis
Frost Phoenix being on of the best monsters in the game, while the new DE monsters seem underwhelming with our present knowledge. Much could change when we learn how the Hydra regen function, and how durable the new Charybdis is. On the positive side a War Hydra is a lot cheaper than a phoenix. Next week we will know much more. However, the fact still remains that Frost Phoenixes are fantastic with a potential for tremendous game changing ability, and we will be hard pressed to receive anything as strong with as much impact on the game as a Frost Phoenix.


White Lions vs Executioners:
Both S6 infantry.
White Lions have 3+ as vs ranged attacks and have stubborn, its still unclear what abilities Executioners will end up with. They might remain as we know them with KB, or receive additional abilities, and many vague rumours float around about additional abilities for Executioners.
Just keep in mind that having 3+ as vs ranged attacks and Stubborn are 2 very usefull abilities, and with WLs at 6.5 skaven slaves, Executioners with only KB would need to be priced at around 5.5 skaven slaves to be competitive.
But it all depends on pricing and abilities of the Executioners. d3W Executioners at 6 skaven slaves would be golden. KB Executioners at 7 skaven slaves would not.

But we have to remember that WLs have been tried and tested a lot the last months by our cousins, and most HE players have found them wanting. It will be very interesting to see if Executioners will perform better.


Phoenix Guard vs Black guard/Sisters of Slaughter:
Phoenix Guard A1, 4+ ward
Black Guard A2, Stubborn
Sisters, A3-4, 4+ ward (in CC), Frenzy, remove enemy rank bonus

Black Guard have always been a key DE unit, and seems to continue to be so. However they moved into Rare. (Remember that since our special slot seem very cramped with great units, moving to rare slot might be a blessing in disguise.)
Sisters are also Rare units, and seem very strong so far. Only with the huge drawback of frenzy.
Phoenix guard are rock solid, especially with 3+ ward save from lore attribute.

Its a difficult choice, and much depends on pricing of the new DE models. Even if DEs come ahead, Phoenix guard are rock solid, and will come in right behind them.


BotWD vs ???:
Its difficult to imaging DE getting any item that can compare to the uberness that is the Banner of the World Dragon. But it is Matt Ward, we shall see.


HE vs DE racials:
HE get to reroll panic tests vs DE armies.
DE armies get Hatred vs HEs.

Finally an area where DE pull clearly ahead!! Of course thats important in HE vs DE matchups, but is of no importance in any other game.


Shades vs Shadowwarriors/sisters of avelorn:
It will be interesting to see if Shades retain their greatswords, if they do, they are arguably again of the best skirmish units in the game. Far superior to shadow warriors. Sisters of avelorn are a close contender though.
But DEs are probably slightly ahead on this one, but again it all depends on pricing and if hey get to have greatswords.


Cold One Knights vs Dragon Princes:
Dragon Princes got a pretty big buff with the new HE book, however they remain S3 2A. They have superior mobility in M9 and the ability to flee, as well as more resilience with a 2+ ward vs fire and 6+ ward vs everything else.
Cold One Knights retain S4 1A, but cold ones get 2A S4. They keep M7 and stupidity.
Even though stupidity is an ability that sometimes looses battles for you, I personally still favor the CO knights, even if 1 pt more expensive.


Lion Chariot vs CO Chariot:
Lion Chariots are generally underwheling with T4 and stubborn. But 4 S5 attacks and 2 S4 attacks. 4+ as
CO Chariots have T5, and 3+ as, and will most likely get 4 S4 attacks from COs and 2 S4 attacks from crew. Stupid.
At the moment Lion Chariots are more expensive than CO Chariots, but CO chariots are expected to go up in price.
Without knowing exactly what will happen to CO chariot pricing, ill say that DE win this one.


So far HE and DE armies seem very similar, but much can change as we do not know many of the new units, rules and especially the pricing. DE could end up much stronger than our cousing, or we could end up substantially weaker. We just need to keep in mind that HE are currently considered a low mid tier army.



Key things that can change everything:
CoB (sounds cool, but very expensive and prime cannon target), Bloodwrack Shrine (again prime cannon target, can we protect it? Is it worth its price?), Beastmasters buffs (Will be very interesting to see what they have come up with), Medusa (come on, it cant be 4 S4 ranged KB attacks. Thats really underwhelming, unless sniper or HKB), general pricing of models, Hydra "regen", Executioner ability, DE magic items, Assassins!

It will be interesting to see how things come out in a week.

Personally i am disappointed in our new Dark Lore, and i really hope the information gleaned from the GW video is misleading, and we end up with a DE lore that is usuable and will bring som flavor to the DE army.

Edit: 29/9

[Trax]

edit:
Scratch what I wrote about the Hydra, misread it: If it really is ONE single wound per round per 4+, it really is pretty bad, but I guess it's more in line with its cost, still.

I read it the way that if it lost 3 wounds, you roll 3d6 and get +1W for every roll of 4+. So it can be completly healed in one turn. Do I get this wrong?

Yeah, that's what I thought at first but after rereading it, I'm not sure any longer. It's either this or that...

And about the Kharybdiss: S7 is fair, okay.

[Liquidedust]

Something we do know however, Hydras are I2 still. Based off the comparison with a Giant in the White Dwarf battle report.

[Daeron]

Hmm. I think the point cost increase will hurt us more than the rule changes really. The murderous prowess will be stronger on hordes and on smaller units. Their martial prowess in middle sized units. It all depends on the playstyle you prefer. They don't "get" their 50% power increase. They need to pay for the models to get that damage and their models don't come cheap. We don't need that... that's a big difference. It's easier and more flexible for us.. and our troops look cheaper by the looks of it. Or am I calculating with the wrong points?

Anyhow.. I look forward to the release.

[Clockwork]

I see Murderess Prowess as a huge benefit. Its basically a failsafe for when you fluff all those wounds.

How many times have you gone in with a bucketload of attacks, then rolled all those 1s wound? Well, now you re-roll them!

Speaking as a Lizardmen player, I've found Predatory Fighter to be huge on Saurus characters. I wish Skinks had it. Saurus don't have get WS so don't hit very often, but generating bonus attacks really compensates for that. Given that Dark Elves are largely low Strength, I can see re-rolling 1s as being equally useful.

[Daeron]

While having the ability to RR 1s to wound on characters is nice. How much impact will 1-3 characters RR 1s to wound have on the game?

Worked out, this 16.5% bonus becomes:
Attacks . . . 2 hits . . . 3 hits . . . 4 hits . . . 5 hits
0 wounds . . . 11,11% . . . 03,70% . . . 01,23% . . . 00,41%
1 wounds . . . 44,44% . . . 22,22% . . . 09,88% . . . 04,12%
2 wounds . . . 44,44% . . . 44,44% . . . 29,63% . . . 16,46%
3 wounds . . . 00,00% . . . 29,63% . . . 39,51% . . . 32,92%
4 wounds . . . 00,00% . . . 00,00% . . . 19,75% . . . 32,92%
5 wounds . . . 00,00% . . . 00,00% . . . 00,00% . . . 13,70%

0 wounds . . . 04,94% . . . 01,10% . . . 00,24% . . . 00,05%
1 wounds . . . 34,75% . . . 11,52% . . . 03,41% . . . 00,95%
2 wounds . . . 60,49% . . . 40,33% . . . 17,92% . . . 06,64%
3 wounds . . . 00,00% . . . 47,05% . . . 41,82% . . . 23,23%
4 wounds . . . 00,00% . . . 00,00% . . . 36,60% . . . 40,66%
5 wounds . . . 00,00% . . . 00,00% . . . 00,00% . . . 28,46%

Difference
Attacks . . . 2 hits . . . 3 hits . . . 4 hits . . . 5 hits
0 wounds . . . -6,17% . . . -2,60% . . . -0,99% . . . -0,36%
1 wounds . . . -9,69% . . . -10,70% . . . -6,47% . . . -3,17%
2 wounds . . . 16,05% . . . -4,11% . . . -11,71% . . . -9,82%
3 wounds . . . 00,00% . . . 17,42% . . . 02,31% . . . -9,69%
4 wounds . . . 00,00% . . . 00,00% . . . 16,85% . . . 07,74%
5 wounds . . . 00,00% . . . 00,00% . . . 00,00% . . . 14,76%

This is assuming a 3+ to wound is needed. The reroll bonus isn't a "killer" in its own right but it reduces the odds on poor outcomes considerably, swapping roughly 16-19% on bad results for a bonus of 16-19% on good results. It will be felt.

[Trax]

Well, in the end MP will be great for the sole reason every reroll is great: To achieve a better average so you can plan better and have a fail safe on the odd chance you're rolling terrible crap. In the long run, extreme dice rolls *will* happen, but rerolls will smooth those out for you. That's why I loved hatred (or now ASF), it's not just "more damage", it's "more consistent damage", which I really enjoy even if Martial Prowess (when applicable which is not always the case) is statistically better.

[Falstaff]

Apparemtly, cold ones will come with T4 as well

It can be seen from one of the pictures in the white dwarf. Have not seen it myself, though.

[Trax]

Apparemtly, cold ones will come with T4 as well

It can be seen from one of the pictures in the white dwarf. Have not seen it myself, though.

Do the Knights profit from the mount's toughness, though? That would be really awesome.

[Omnichron]

I don't get how people can be so negative about the new release already. We haven't got the book yet, and only a few parts of the rules are covered. Some of the things we have had from our 7th edition book are too good, and we are most likely losing some of those items and abilities that made us the very top tier.

The spells are NOT clear yet and I, for one, just want something of we had with a few upgrades. It seems like that's what we are getting though, and a few of those seems to be very good.

Finally getting ASF is very good for most of our choices, and it means our Executioners can be used as something else than just a big horde. MSU is suddenly possible, and I disagree with them being inferior to WL with the current rumors. If they have D3 wounds per attack, they are INSANELY good at taking down Monsters, MC, MI... with reroll all 1s to wound, it's only their hit rolls that will be the "bad side" of them... and they mostly hit on 3+. Yes, they will die quickly to magic and shots, but you can shield them and make them survive for those close combats.

Hydra got a nerf, and it was really needed as well... but it became cheaper when it's without the optional extras, and it can actually survive even longer in the game unless it meets the wrong opponents. You can't use it against everything. You have to play it smarter.

I'm gonna go through some impressions and thoughts about the book when it actually comes (or the rules are leaked somewhere), but lets not complain about changes. I for one think we will get a decent book that can do very well, even if we might end up not being top of the tiers.

[Holt]

Pretty much sums up my thoughts about the new book too Omnichron. I'm more than happy with the updates that I have seen and have little negative things to say about what we know for sure. Should be a good edition I think.

[Daeron]

Well.. if you read the forums of other races, you are like to find them to be negative book too. As in "These DE get too much power!". It's part of the usual fun of a new release

[Dalamar]

Reading Ulthuan is fun. They all cry how much more powerful we'll be. So don't worry about any minor issues. Revel in the tears of our misguided kin.