New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Swordmaster of Hoeth
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

It's a lot of fun to read Druchii.net and see how DE players cry loud about the changes to come :-P Where is your infamous arrogance? I expected to see comments like "now we conquer the whole world" :)

On a more serious note I am too awaiting new army book before I form an opinion. I believe that a combination of relative high point cost and increased variety of units will mean that one cannot have it all. Which, in my opinion, is good as it should lead to more variety in army lists.

In particular, I am looking forward to facing combat orientated armies as they will pose a challenge to my own force. I had to fight against cowardly DE so far, hiding behind their repeaters and skirts of their sorceresses :) Now it will be much more interesting as certain units have their favorite match ups but at the same time might be vulnerable to something else. For example, I would not send Swordmasters (unfortunately :() against Black Guard (although that would have been epic fight fluff wise). But if they are really only S4 then heavy cavalry and chariots should be the right answer. Since any DE player would try to prevent that and get BG against other infantry (in particular without effective ASF) then I predict a lot of maneuvering too!

Oh, and enthusiasts of MSU armies should have finally tools for the job!

Cheers!
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Dalamar »

Worry not Swordmaster, the best don't despair. I shall unleash my beasts of war against your weak kin and use them as appetizers.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Falstaff »

As I read the very detailed rumours about Dark Magic yesterday, me too thought at first that this is really weak. However, at second glance I like the synergies of taking off the BSB-reroll and the general's LD along our Sisters and the Kraken (whateveritsnamemaybe). All of a sudden all LD checks will be a great threat to our opponents if we get that spell of.

Also consider the great synergies with Death. Take a lvl 4 on death to enfold our traditional magic pressure but be sure to chose that -3 LD spell. Then another lvl2 on Dark along with the tome (if still there) and if the points allow yet another lvl2 with dark to be sure to make get that dark-LD spell. Also, let's not forget about the warlocks that will be casters as well (according to rumours) and will verly likely have another LD-spell! And then look out for anything that forces immediate panic checks (shooting, abilities or more magic).

Then cast magic and use terror, fear, panic and combat res to its fullest. Even the strongest or largest units will suddenly be in danger of running off the board without even getting a glimpse at the naked thighs of our beloved witches.


However, I'd like it even more so, if the medusa wouldn't force I-tests but LD-tests! That would make more sense fluffwise as well, as the chosen model must fight his own moral to not look at the medusa, although he/she knows the medusa is looking at him/her.


On another note, I'm not all too sure what the medusa is going to do for us. KB range attacks with S4 on a 90ppm T4 monster? Maybe you can take more than 1.. 2 or 3 in one unit and really threaten cavalry or lone characters.. Again, along with the warlocks they can build a very powerful ranged game without characters or xbows.


All in all, I think the game style that made us so strong in the recent meta (concerning etc) has become even better with all the possibilities of forcing low LD checks. (Oh, did I even mention the death signature spell? :D)

Along with that, we'll have to see what our monster mash will be able to do and how all those different characters will turn out. I'm espescially interested in seeing, how our elite infantry will play in the new book. BG, witches and Execs have rested on my shelves for too long.


Wishlist:
- Something similar to the loremaster
- assault option or ability on shades or other stuff (don't know the exact English term. That stuff that makes a unit come on on a 3+ wherever you wish)
- a powerful beastmaster that's really of use.
- Dark signature spell not limiting the +1S to the sorc unit but letting you chose that unit.


Edit: I just had a look on the ebay auctions of dark elves.. prices for witch elves and execs are way up :) And all of a sudden, lots of auctions with the old warriors (with sords) appear out of nowhere :D Luckily, I still have a box with about 40 of them ^^
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Clockwork »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:It's a lot of fun to read Druchii.net and see how DE players cry loud about the changes to come :-P Where is your infamous arrogance? I expected to see comments like "now we conquer the whole world" :)

On a more serious note I am too awaiting new army book before I form an opinion. I believe that a combination of relative high point cost and increased variety of units will mean that one cannot have it all. Which, in my opinion, is good as it should lead to more variety in army lists.

In particular, I am looking forward to facing combat orientated armies as they will pose a challenge to my own force. I had to fight against cowardly DE so far, hiding behind their repeaters and skirts of their sorceresses :) Now it will be much more interesting as certain units have their favorite match ups but at the same time might be vulnerable to something else. For example, I would not send Swordmasters (unfortunately :() against Black Guard (although that would have been epic fight fluff wise). But if they are really only S4 then heavy cavalry and chariots should be the right answer. Since any DE player would try to prevent that and get BG against other infantry (in particular without effective ASF) then I predict a lot of maneuvering too!

Oh, and enthusiasts of MSU armies should have finally tools for the job!

Cheers!


This is exactly why I am very happy so far :D

Dark Elves got away with far too much for far too long. A lot of that will be taken away, which will lead to a lot of complaints from people who relied heavily on certain elements making the book work (Hydras & Shadow/Death Stabby Daggers to name but two). Having not used those things myself, I'm very pleased that the other parts of the book appear to be getting buffed (ASF on Executioners is awesome).

Even the new cheese - Witch Elf hordes with Cauldrons - don't initially seem to be too OP, given the high points cost of the Cauldron.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Persuader »

I'm liking the new book so far.

Magic seems ok, ASF is great, sure we won't have our killer items anymore and everything will go up in point cost but hey, --> ASF!

Can't wait till saturday.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

Hi guys!

@ Dalamar

HE are too skinny :P Better feed your pets on something they can really chew on. :)

@ Clockwork

It all depends on details now. Important ones though. Point costs, options, exact wording of rules etc. But I am very curious what people are going to come up with. It is already clear that there are too many options to have them in a single army!

What are your initial plans for the new army?

Cheers!
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Clockwork »

Well, first off I'm looking at dropping the Cauldron, as it appears to both go up in points and reduce its range of support (whilst it looks to make one unit very good, what I really liked was how it could apply a buff to anyone one unit at the right time). This'll save me a tidy 300 points, which is good because everything else is going up!

Otherwise I don't envisage that many changes. If Witch Elves are still 5+, then I'll definitely be grabbing two or three darts in Core, plus a couple of units of Dark Riders (maybe without the Repeaters), and a big block of attention-grabbing Warriors. Looking towards Special, two units of 6 Cold One Knights, two units of 12 Executioners, two units of 12 Black Guard, and two units of 5 or 6 Shades (maybe even with Great Weapons...) still look like solid investments due to the ASF changes. Rare will probably be filled out with a couple of smallish units of Sisters of Slaughter.

I'd like to fit some Cold One Chariots and Repeater Bolt Throwers in as well though, so it looks like things are going to be really tight in Special! And I do love Fast Cavalry, so if the Warlocks are good then I'll try to squeeze them in. Hopefully they'll be Rare to make things easier!

Finally, I have a great idea for an alternate Medusa - using one of the Sauron models from LOTR (either the armored one or the Necromancer, haven't decided). The fluff behind this will be that one of my Dreadlord's ancestors has been cursed by the Dark Elf gods to spend eternity in torment. Which he takes out on the Druchii's opponents, naturally. At only 90 points it should be a good fit, although the rules don't seem too encouraging (only T4, S4, and Killing Blow on an Initiative test - sadly, KB isn't what it used to be and there's lots of stuff out there that you want might to KB but has high Initiative. Primarily everything from Warriors of Chaos).
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Falstaff »

SPECULATION

As HE have gotten a Loremaster and we are getting a beastmaster that buffs nearby monsters, I'm thinking (wishing) if this model might not come with access to lore of beasts. Maybe the High Beastmaster is a lvl2 Loremaster or lvl2 of the lore of beasts!?

This would fit fluffwise, would comply to the HE book and apart from that.. lore of beasts is awesome as it covers some of our weaknesses, makes our monsters even better and gives access to the amber spear :D
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Searinox Nagharha »

That, would be a real treat to see, it would fit aswell so if it happens i rly wont mind :P
at the moment i rly like the sound of a monster army

altho im first gonna continue with my Corsair themed army. cant wait to see our new character options beside the BM.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Scyloc »

Its still very early to say for me. So much can still change.

Regarding core I am definately thinking something along the lines of:

Std setup: 2-3 DR units, 18 spear bunker for sorcs, rest in WEs (24'ish. Could be one group or 14 + 2x5 or even 4x 6 WEs)
Horde setup: 30-40 WEs 2-3 DRs (to support horded special/rare troops)
MMU setup: 3x 14 WEs, 2 DRs (small WEs are less susceptible to diverters)
One of the WE units with flaming banner.

My general trend is to include WEs to help in matchups against DoC, VC, where Beast of Nurgle and Crypt Horrors can otherwise be tricky. As can trolls and several regenerating monsters like Abomb.
The downside is that in matchups vs Empire and WoC. WEs will struggle to dent 1+ armor saves.

I think the balance between WEs, magic lore and special/rare choices will be key in building an 8td ed DE army.


Even though 30 WEs with CoB sounds very powerful with rerolling to wound and 5++ ward save. Its a tremendous amount of points to put in a single unit, that cannot deal with high armor units.

But everything depends on how the final units turn out, and of course pricing and internal synergies.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Trax »

Falstaff wrote:As I read the very detailed rumours about Dark Magic yesterday, me too thought at first that this is really weak. However, at second glance I like the synergies of taking off the BSB-reroll and the general's LD along our Sisters and the Kraken (whateveritsnamemaybe). All of a sudden all LD checks will be a great threat to our opponents if we get that spell of.

(snip)


It sounds all good on paper but in reality magic combos don't work, ever. Once in a blue moon, maybe, if you are overly lucky or your opponent is pretty dumb. And that the lvl 4 Sorc should be taking the Death Lore and not Black Magic, is pretty telling, I think...

_________

With Witches put in core, I doubt they'll retain their 5+ unit size. Are there any other 5+ core infantry units out there? Not that there isn't a first for everything, but I sincerely doubt it, which is a shame, since 6/8 Witch Elves used to be awesome (but okay, that's been half due to the Stubbornness the Cauldron used to grant).

The Beastmaster is still an unknown variable, but I don't think he'll end up being too fancy, most certainly he won't be a magic user (especially no loremaster). Guess he'll grant some perks in a 6/12" bubble around him like hatred, stubborn, itp to the DE menagerie and that's it. Could still be nice, but might be way too expensive to field in reality. We'll see.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Dalamar »

It's not the combos though, it's the fact that it looks like we'll have easy access to multiple Ld affecting abilities which means one or two is bound to go through.
Just imagine K-beast charging a massive horde of "I'm stubborn on 10", which gets hit by Doom and Darkness
Now you're stubborn on 7 with no BSB re-roll, Sisters of Slaughter joining into the combat will make it that much easier to win (up to 3 free points just for being there) etc.

Still molding a list in my head currently:

Core filled with Dark Riders and Scourgerunners (Scroungerunners... I hope someone misread that, we're not scrounging anything >.>)
Special filled with Hydrae
Rare with K-Beasts

Then I really need to know where will Warlocks go (I hope Special, but it's likely they'll be rare which would make me a sad panda) and the exact rules for the Bloodwrack Throne (because rumors make it sound REALLY underwhelming)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Clockwork »

Do we know that Scourgerunners are Core?

I hope Warlocks are Rare! Special is crammed with too much already.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Clockwork »

Trax wrote:With Witches put in core, I doubt they'll retain their 5+ unit size. Are there any other 5+ core infantry units out there? Not that there isn't a first for everything, but I sincerely doubt it, which is a shame, since 6/8 Witch Elves used to be awesome (but okay, that's been half due to the Stubbornness the Cauldron used to grant).


Forsaken are 5+. I think that's the only Core non-skirmishing infantry which is 5+, though I may be mistaken.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Dalamar »

We don't know for sure, but I saw a listing of Core/Special/Rare which may not have been accurate.

It's nice to dream though right? I'd love Core chariots.

The same list put Black Guard in Special but I've also heard them being Rare now... so we'll see... just 6 more days (less for some :P)
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by PoisonedBlade »

im going mad with anticipation, a bit disapointed GW didnt show off the executioners/blackguard darkriders/warlocks or the chariot at GD, WTF GW, you dont have any made yet?
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Fallenturtle »

Black horror may seem weak in comparison to all the other vortex's, but at least it wont be banned or changed like all the other bomb spells in some tournaments. Besides, with rumored 9th edition around the corner they might change all the bomb spells in the big book anyway.

I'm already seeing some synergies and how effective we can be at screwing our opponents leadership. Causing a unit to not be able to use the bsb's Hold the line is huge! (I'm assuming that it will also work vs undead IE they crumble more). we don't know what the warlocks do either but early rumors suggested that they can nuke leadership as well in bound spell form. having their leadership 10 dropped down to a 7-8 without a re-roll can be a game changer..

The goal will be not to have the dice, but to be a cunning strategist when it comes to the magic. do they let their leadership go down, or do they let say a witch elf horde with cauldron get off it's spell..

I already have a few ideas in my head, and a few friends willing to dress up as a pirate and scream RELEASE THE KRAKEN the first time I use it on the battlefield :D
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Trax »

Dalamar wrote:It's not the combos though, it's the fact that it looks like we'll have easy access to multiple Ld affecting abilities which means one or two is bound to go through.
Just imagine K-beast charging a massive horde of "I'm stubborn on 10", which gets hit by Doom and Darkness
Now you're stubborn on 7 with no BSB re-roll, Sisters of Slaughter joining into the combat will make it that much easier to win (up to 3 free points just for being there) etc.


Way too many variables though. Getting all the spells is one thing - might be doable. Then maybe one gets through - good chance it won't at the crucial moment, though, Doom and Darkness is (unlinke Fiery Convocation and the like) no spell that may force a dispel scroll on turn 1, so you're going to get both those spells dispelled when you wanted them the most.

Moral shenanigans are really great in itself, I'm just underwhelmed by the fact that DaD is mostly better. The -1Ld via Bloodwrack Shrine is up in the air, like you said, we've got no clue what it may be capable of. From what we've heard so far, it's really bad, like you said. Well, we'll see. Thing is, I like to be more pessimistic than optimistic, so the disappointments will not be as hard^^ (might even find some more nice surprises in there)
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Cougar_roger »

Reading the battle report in white dwarf, any one know what the sorcerous portal is? It was cast to try and give the witches a buff from the lore of beasts, maybe a new magic item?
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Clockwork »

Its BRB mysterious terrain. Granted Wildform.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Krueger1981 »

Falstaff wrote:As I read the very detailed rumours about Dark Magic yesterday, me too thought at first that this is really weak. However, at second glance I like the synergies of taking off the BSB-reroll and the general's LD along our Sisters and the Kraken (whateveritsnamemaybe). All of a sudden all LD checks will be a great threat to our opponents if we get that spell of.

Also consider the great synergies with Death. Take a lvl 4 on death to enfold our traditional magic pressure but be sure to chose that -3 LD spell. Then another lvl2 on Dark along with the tome (if still there) and if the points allow yet another lvl2 with dark to be sure to make get that dark-LD spell. Also, let's not forget about the warlocks that will be casters as well (according to rumours) and will verly likely have another LD-spell! And then look out for anything that forces immediate panic checks (shooting, abilities or more magic).

Then cast magic and use terror, fear, panic and combat res to its fullest. Even the strongest or largest units will suddenly be in danger of running off the board without even getting a glimpse at the naked thighs of our beloved witches.


However, I'd like it even more so, if the medusa wouldn't force I-tests but LD-tests! That would make more sense fluffwise as well, as the chosen model must fight his own moral to not look at the medusa, although he/she knows the medusa is looking at him/her.


On another note, I'm not all too sure what the medusa is going to do for us. KB range attacks with S4 on a 90ppm T4 monster? Maybe you can take more than 1.. 2 or 3 in one unit and really threaten cavalry or lone characters.. Again, along with the warlocks they can build a very powerful ranged game without characters or xbows.


All in all, I think the game style that made us so strong in the recent meta (concerning etc) has become even better with all the possibilities of forcing low LD checks. (Oh, did I even mention the death signature spell? :D)

Along with that, we'll have to see what our monster mash will be able to do and how all those different characters will turn out. I'm espescially interested in seeing, how our elite infantry will play in the new book. BG, witches and Execs have rested on my shelves for too long.


Wishlist:
- Something similar to the loremaster
- assault option or ability on shades or other stuff (don't know the exact English term. That stuff that makes a unit come on on a 3+ wherever you wish)
- a powerful beastmaster that's really of use.
- Dark signature spell not limiting the +1S to the sorc unit but letting you chose that unit.


Edit: I just had a look on the ebay auctions of dark elves.. prices for witch elves and execs are way up :) And all of a sudden, lots of auctions with the old warriors (with sords) appear out of nowhere :D Luckily, I still have a box with about 40 of them ^^


Not everyone likes death however. Honestly outside of ogres I would never think of taking it. Shadow is just better than death. Dark looking like it took a big spiked club to the face isn't really good. I would normally always use shadow/dark and potentially shadow/dark/metal if I ran 3 sorceresses. The biggest thing from the scans so far that hurt is bladewind not being very good. Often times with the right casting set up and army build you could get a good chance of the enemy wasting a dispel scroll turn 1. Chillwind going from no you can't shoot at all to -1 bs. Not as rough as bladewind but it makes dark lore not that hot with only 2 spells you actually want to roll.

Outside of us getting a pick your spells from xyz lores type expensive special character (say malekith or morathi more than likely) dark lore really isn't worth chancing rolls on. If their where enough good situational spells like 7th ed dark lore (imho it had only doom bolt that was auto drop). Also with the way pod is it seems like if anyone takes it they need to have a potion of healing with it for the inevitable wounds when you roll a 5-6.

I'm not saying the sky is falling but as it appears right now dark is taking a big hit in functionality. I can't even say from a magic dependant standpoint it would even be worth rolling on from what the info we have from the cards is so far. The -1 leadership spell and black horror spells are the only two that to me don't scream "meh". Granted soul stealer is still fairly unknown at this time but potentially only having 3-4 at best decent spells compared to 5 good to great spells kinda stings. Word of pain still seems good.
Last edited by Krueger1981 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Gidean »

Anybody else dismayed by the new Witch Elves costing twice as much money as a spearman box? Sheesh. Also I love how they absolutely refuse to give away ANY mechanics in that WD Battle report. We don't even know the second spell the DE player rolled.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Trax »

One guy on Warseer's claiming to hold the AB in his hands. For one he said that DE are now allowed to choose any of the 8 RB lores. I'd still rather have a great own lore, but that opens up quite some options... Why pick Black Horror if you can have Dwellers.
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Krueger1981 »

Oh wow if true I read some stuff on warseer we have access to all 8 lores right now. Hydra banner and corsair sss is gone, banner of nagaryth is 100 points unit is unbreakable. Hydra sword is +d6 attacks user must pass a -2 ld test or suffer -5 ws and gain hkb.

Not confirmed yet but apparently somebody has a book and is answering questions atm.
The 7p theory;

previous proper planning prevents piss poor performance
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Re: New DE armybook RULES RUMOURS

Post by Krueger1981 »

Trax wrote:One guy on Warseer's claiming to hold the AB in his hands. For one he said that DE are now allowed to choose any of the 8 RB lores. I'd still rather have a great own lore, but that opens up quite some options... Why pick Black Horror if you can have Dwellers.


I have seen some arguments that black horror the way it is worded would get threw botwd. So I guess that is the main reason you would take it if that holds up.
The 7p theory;

previous proper planning prevents piss poor performance
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