Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights

Post Reply
Setomidor
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1294
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 8:12 am
Location: Umeå, Sweden

Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Setomidor »

Reading through every scrap of rumors I have found (which covers most of the book), I am left with a sinking feeling that the DE lists currently being played will remain largely unchanged. I will not go into the discussion whether the new armybook is strong or week (that's too soon), but it feels like the new stuff will have a hard time replacing any of our established units:

- New Lord choices sound underwhelming at best. The admiral (with his Light Armour and only 50 pts of MI allowance) needs to kill characters in a challenge to get any milage out of his special rules, and this is unlikely to happen as weaker chars will just refuse the challenge. The Beastmaster can either ride a Manticore or a chariot and could possibly be a cheaper alternative to a Dragon, but he'll still weight in at about 400 pts with all his gear which would mean that any Lvl4 wizard will not have many points to spend on upgrades.

- New Sisters sounds very, very(, very), fragile for their points costs and damage output. Even assuming they make it into combat without being breathed on, shot at, or magically obliterated, they will never go above S3 and so will stand chanceless against anything with good AS. They also cannot remove Steadfast and at 7.5 slaves per model they will struggle to have many ranks themselves.

- New Scourgerunner is 75 slaves, but only 24" range. This means most of the shots will only hit on 5+. What is even worse, if they DO hit and DO cause a wound, they will drag the enemy monster closer to our lines? Unless we have ample shooting to take it down in a single turn, that will just mean we just gave the enemy monster D6" extra charge range for free.

- New Medusa sounds quite expensive, 45 slaves for 4 shots at S4 with KB will most likely not pick off more than a single knight or two (which probably is the ideal target). Haven't seen the full rules for this one, so will not judge it too harshly.

- The currently underused units; BG, CoK, CoC stayed mostly the same, and will probably not be very commonly used.

At the same time, our magic got better, our pegasus chars have access to very nice protection (3++ against all spells and missiles), shades remain the same, crossbows can take Flaming banner, and bolt throwers and Hydras just got moved to special. At large, it seems my armylist wont change anywhere as much as I had hoped it will, in terms of variance and new way to make the list. Actually, the single change that I am most happy with when it comes to variance is the access to all rulebook lores -- this at least will allow us to e.g. play lists focused around the Lore of Life.

Of course I know this is premature, we have to wait and see how the army plays out.
User avatar
Daeron
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 7:36 pm
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Contact:

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Daeron »

I think a new playstyle will open up, one resembling closer to the High Elves, in which we have a single, solid block of infantry with an army of chaff around it. Looking at some of the spells (signature boosting strength, for example), the CoB now being pushed by infantry and the collection of strong models in their own right (second monster, flying monsters, RBTs) this seems like a new path available to us. The shroud of despair spell might work excellently with this.

This is all prematurely, of course, but ... those are my initial thoughts. Our previous AB was flexible, which kept us in the game for so long, but the meta pigeon holed us to a few options only. With the current rule rumours circling about, I feel like we're back into "pushing" our game, which may open our options and playstyles, with enough traditional "move and shoot" as backup should all else fail.
I love me a bowl of numbers to crunch for breakfast. If you need anything theoryhammered, I gladly take requests.

Furnace of Arcana, a warhammer blog with delusional grandeur.

"I move unseen. I hide in light and shadow. I move faster than a bird. No plate of armour ever stopped me. I strike recruits and veterans with equal ease. And all shiver at my coldest of whispers."
- The stiff breeze
Cold73
Highborn
Posts: 603
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: the Netherlands

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Cold73 »

The more things change the more they stay the same.

As for me... I think my list will change a bit... maybe a bit more shooting... (never used that in the old book)
I might actually leave my Black Guard at home now. In the last edition i always had one unit of them with the AP banner. Always rerolling to hit.....S4 AP...they were a real boon against any cavalry my opponent may use.

I'm still not sure if i will ever include cavalry in my list...it is way to expensive to use, and dies to easily (only T3). But we will see...
[CENTER]Image[/CENTER]
User avatar
Omnichron
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1378
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Omnichron »

Getting access to the other lores is a big change though, and having access to high S attacks already (The "kraken" and Executioners), means that you can focus your lists differently. Lore of Life sounds like the new lore to use for me.

Our characters are not as strong as before, and I fear they might be even weaker than some of the HE characters... I do like Cloak of Twilight though... it gives us an item for a very strong pegasus character for sure.
Personal quote: "It's better to do little damage and lose nothing than to do lots of damage and lose everything."
Final tournament score for 7th DE book in 8th edition - W/D/L: 25/5/10
Mtorma
Slave (off the Altar)
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:13 pm

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Mtorma »

My army is doomed to change a lot. Mostly since all my auto-include magic items seem to be gone (crimsomdeath, pendant, <that regen armor>, lifetaker). And while cloack of twilight+chillblade to dragonlord makes it formbiddable on charge, it no longer can charge large heavy infantry (khorne warriors etc) since it will get killed after first round due to only 2+ armor. Uber stalling unit (pegahero+pendant) is gone also so it seems that the infantry (which i previously had only rxb) will have to do the killing.

I almoust exclusively play with etc rules so dumping pendant hero opens opportunity for cauldron which is nice.

<edit> on a second thought, dragon for that combo is stupid since the dragon either, gets to hit only after rider is already dead or does not have anything to hit since lord did the right thing </edit>
User avatar
Dragon9
Assassin
Posts: 571
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:30 pm
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Dragon9 »

Setomidor wrote:- New Sisters sounds very, very(, very), fragile for their points costs and damage output. Even assuming they make it into combat without being breathed on, shot at, or magically obliterated, they will never go above S3 and so will stand chanceless against anything with good AS. They also cannot remove Steadfast and at 7.5 slaves per model they will struggle to have many ranks themselves.


They're just as fragile as WE. You probably want to use the SoS as a flanking unit. Basically, use them like WE.

- New Scourgerunner is 75 slaves, but only 24" range. This means most of the shots will only hit on 5+. What is even worse, if they DO hit and DO cause a wound, they will drag the enemy monster closer to our lines? Unless we have ample shooting to take it down in a single turn, that will just mean we just gave the enemy monster D6" extra charge range for free.


You aren't thinking of the possibility of running one or two up a flank where your opponent has a monster (say, a Skaven Hellpit Abom anchoring that flank) and harassing it and pulling it out of position. Or heck, pulling INTO position for some nastiness (spells, concentrated fire, your own monster mash, etc.).

- New Medusa sounds quite expensive, 45 slaves for 4 shots at S4 with KB will most likely not pick off more than a single knight or two (which probably is the ideal target). Haven't seen the full rules for this one, so will not judge it too harshly.


It does the same thing as its shooting attack to all models in base contact (50x50 base when "on foot") in combat automatically, plus it has its melee attacks. So it has the potential for nastiness.
"The dark elves have everything cool. They are pirate blood cultist ninjas riding dinosaurs and flinging magic. They're metal. They're the most metal race out there, rivaled only by Warriors of Chaos. They bring a cauldron of boiling blood onto the battlefield. You don't get much more metal than that." -- Mostlyharmless on Warseer

My Blog: A Small World - My Life in Miniatures

Image Image
User avatar
Dyvim tvar
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Lord of the Dragon Caves
Posts: 8372
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 6:34 pm
Location: The Dragon Caves of the Underway (Indianapolis IN)
Contact:

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Dyvim tvar »

I want to read the rules on the Scourgerunner. If the monster-dragging effect also changes the facing of the monster to the direction it moves, that could be quite disruptive.
Truly These are the End Times ...
User avatar
Searinox Nagharha
Aspiring Brush Master
Posts: 680
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:19 pm
Location: In my Armory, protecting my Weed.

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Searinox Nagharha »

for some reason i doubt it will, tho if it did then even a 1" pull could be devistating to your enemies plan.
actually thinking about it... tho it would throw a spanner in your enemies plan... that big bad monster is now facing YOUR chariot and its your enemies turn now...
PLOG - The House of Corvus
Image

Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
WS:5 S:3 T:3 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Long sword; Falchion (family heirloom), Very Good Sabre, Short sword, Dagger, Throwing Dagger (4) SeaDragon Cloak, Chain
Inventory: 30 gold (214 still to be paid), Silver Bracelet, several flagons: 1x Strength potion, 3x Courage potion, 3x Healing Potion.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Acrobatics, Basic Stealth
Setomidor
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1294
Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 8:12 am
Location: Umeå, Sweden

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Setomidor »

Dragon9 wrote:You aren't thinking of the possibility of running one or two up a flank where your opponent has a monster (say, a Skaven Hellpit Abom anchoring that flank) and harassing it and pulling it out of position. Or heck, pulling INTO position for some nastiness (spells, concentrated fire, your own monster mash, etc.).


Yeah, but you'd be sending 300 points down the flank and still only hitting on 5+. Each of the chariots is reasonably close in points to our own Monsters, and I'm thinking that another two Kharibdyss is sweeter than two of the fragile chariots.

Dragon9 wrote:It does the same thing as its shooting attack to all models in base contact (50x50 base when "on foot") in combat automatically, plus it has its melee attacks. So it has the potential for nastiness.


What I'm worried about is that many of the things out there simply ignores KB anyway. Read Monsters, all MC/MI/MB, and all characters mounted on those. I'd say it depends on the Movement value and protection of the Medusa, if it's M7-M8 I'd be happy to use it as a redirector/potential threat.
User avatar
Fallenturtle
Shade
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:43 am

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Fallenturtle »

I think everyone's list will change. It's a new shift in the direction of fantasy. I honestly think Dark Elves are the army that will change the meta back from Flying un-killable Demon princes/Crushers/Phoenix's to the more traditional fantasy army you think of when looking across the battlefield. Bodies lined up across from each other. foot troops supported by monsters and chariots and knights.. It's like empire only on the power level of WOC/Demons/HE.

It's never a bad thing to have choices (one reasons I started dark elves back in 7th). I bet you that once the dust settles, there will be several different power lists. I know this is premature as we're just going off someone telling things straight from the book, but there's no unit I have seen that will not have some sort of a niche. Nothing (save for chillwind and a few of the magic items) stands out as Fracking bloody terrible.
User avatar
Phierlihy
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 2089
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:19 am

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Phierlihy »

Actually all the high priced magic items look a bit bad. And Dark Magic isn't all that impressive. But the rest looks solid.
Proud supporter of druchii.net
phierlihy@druchii.net
User avatar
Rickie_82
Executioner
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:52 pm
Location: sweden huskvarna

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Rickie_82 »

Been disapointed with the new models, but not that hard to get the old ones. The rules however seems to be more to my liking then before.
I'll try to go the MSU combat army aproach. Only bigish units will be a block or two of 20 spearmen.
For magic I'm kinda liking the idea of lv4 heavens suported by a lv2 dark.

Still piecing together what I like with what I'll need. Most info for making a skeleton of a list is avalible. Sadly I'm building from scratch and on a budget so will take me some time to get to field the army.
Image
User avatar
Rasputinii
M-A-D
Posts: 5178
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:52 am
Location: Melbourne Oz
Contact:

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Rasputinii »

Phierlihy wrote:Actually all the high priced magic items look a bit bad. And Dark Magic isn't all that impressive. But the rest looks solid.


I'm not a fan of the two magic weapons, but I think every other item is good. Not mind blowing lay awesome and obvious but really good. I think Dark magic like high magic will divide opinions. Personally I think it's brilliant. To me it feels very much like "disruption" was a key phrase the design team had in their head. Other than some if the balls out combos with frenzy / cob it feels to me like dark elves have stepped back from being super I your face to a more disruptive sort of army. It's no longer about until label characters, cob super powers and bombing big nuke spells. Instead it's more like 6th - cunning and skill to hinder your opponents and combing different elements to bring death to enemy units.

I think the new DE book looks like it will be very strong against the chimera style WoC lists. Perhaps moving the meta on again...
Pleased to be back
User avatar
Trax
Assassin
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:53 am
Location: Germany

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Trax »

Rasputinii wrote:Instead it's more like 6th - cunning and skill to hinder your opponents and combing different elements to bring death to enemy units.


I stopped playing WHFB before 6th edition hit, but I'd love to go back to such a style, 8th ed with 7th ed rules truly has been a little whack-a-mole-y.

edit
Quote came out wrong... somehow... sorry Phierlihy :P
Last edited by Trax on Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Phierlihy
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 2089
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:19 am

Re: Premature fear: DE lists will stay the same

Post by Phierlihy »

I didn't write that...
Proud supporter of druchii.net
phierlihy@druchii.net
Post Reply