speeding me up...

[ZT Strike]

So I am still kinda new to Druchii considering that I don't play them much. My true love is the Glorious Asur, but I would like to do more with my dark army. Any basic tips you guys would like to share. This army plays quite like Asur but seems to rely more on shooting. Love that we have ASF now.

[Saintofm]

Cold one chariots work well suporting other units or in groups.

Scourge runner Chariots can move and shoot their bolt thrower which while it doesn't officially say it has go through ranks, at Strength 7 it can go through just about any monster's hide and has the potential to get 4 wounds on it in one shot.

Ranger's standard works great with cavalry, razor standard works great with black guard or executioners.

Eternal flame standard goes great with witch elves or dark shards, the latter can also use scarecrow banner to great effect (shooty unit, their biggest enemy are flyers).

Hydras are good against masses of troops, while Kharibdysses are good against other monsters and single model units like chariots, although with 5 attacks and thunderstomp they can do well in some troop combat.

Shades with assassin work wonders, best anti war machine units.

Cauldron and shrine can go in unit so if you don't have enough minies to make a proper hoard unit you do now!

[Cold73]

Dark Elves relying more on shooting....
I think that totally depends on your play style... although our core does have some strong shooters (RXB) we have far less powerfull shooting like our hated cousins of the light. Sisters of Avalorn come to mind there. Will it surprise you that I only have about 10-15 shooting models in my entire army list (up to 2500 pnts).

In my opinion Dark Elves shine in butchery. Note...i did not say combat...for combat would in my opinion be when 2 units meet each other head on.
No.. Dark Elves will need to use every dirty little trick they can get their hands on for them to really make them an elite army.
You will need to think in every phase of your turn.
Movement phase..... your job is to out manouver your opponent make him react to you if you can...try to see if you can get flank charges of
Magic Phase.... apart from blasting your foes...be it destroying single powerfull models or even decimating entire hordes...your main objective most of the time is to weaken the opponent you are fighting in the next phase...or even making your own units stronger.

And yes there is a shooting phase in there somewhere as well..but for me atleast that one is not that important.
Personally I always try to let my opponent take difficult decessions in every phase of the game. The more decessions he has to make the greater the chance he slips up...and once he does...I will be over him in a heartbeat.

[Askador]

Cold one chariots work well suporting other units or in groups.

Scourge runner Chariots can move and shoot their bolt thrower which while it doesn't officially say it has go through ranks, at Strength 7 it can go through just about any monster's hide and has the potential to get 4 wounds on it in one shot.

Ranger's standard works great with cavalry, razor standard works great with black guard or executioners.

Eternal flame standard goes great with witch elves or dark shards, the latter can also use scarecrow banner to great effect (shooty unit, their biggest enemy are flyers).

Hydras are good against masses of troops, while Kharibdysses are good against other monsters and single model units like chariots, although with 5 attacks and thunderstomp they can do well in some troop combat.

Shades with assassin work wonders, best anti war machine units.

Cauldron and shrine can go in unit so if you don't have enough minies to make a proper hoard unit you do now!

I agree with everything you say except:
Razor Standard is good for Witches also.

Flaming Standard is only good for a small unit of Witch elves.
If you have a CoB Witch Horde i would never use it. One Charakter with Dragonhelm and a Crown will Charge them and having alot fun.

[T.D.]

My true love is the Glorious High Elves

[Amboadine]

@T.D, that sums it up beautifully

[ZT Strike]

You will have to forgive me for showing favoritism here for the Asur, its not that I don't like Druchii but that I like how the Asur are complete hypocrites. Being evil and killing everything is fun and simple, but telling the world you are the good guys and beating the unholy crap out of those who say you are not is just a blast.

[Amboadine]

You will have to forgive me for showing favoritism here for the Asur, its not that I don't like Druchii but that I like how the Asur are complete hypocrites. Being evil and killing everything is fun and simple, but telling the world you are the good guys and beating the unholy crap out of those who say you are not is just a blast.

You will fall to the dark side eventually, it is inevitable

[ZT Strike]

Maybe, we will have to wait and see. What I do know this that Druchii have no units of the same caliber as Swordmasters and Dragon Princes.

[T.D.]

What I do know this that Druchii have no units of the same caliber as Swordmasters and Dragon Princes.

[Amboadine]

Maybe, we will have to wait and see. What I do know this that Druchii have no units of the same caliber as Swordmasters and Dragon Princes.

Really? Warlocks are excellent. Dark riders and witches are some of the best core in the game. We have many good units and variant builds.
Think you really need to reassess the army, or learn to play in a different style that works better for the dark elves.

[Saintofm]

Maybe, we will have to wait and see. What I do know this that Druchii have no units of the same caliber as Swordmasters and Dragon Princes.

Correction: Dragon princes may have attacks up the ying-yang, they are still have lances and Strength 3. Unless they get the charge they have the same problems all heavy cavalry have: After the first turn they are going to get bogged down.

Cold one knights are their equal. What they lack in speed, they make up for in strength. Add the fact they too are always strikes first, your main strength will go nowhere. That and when you charge you go through 2 layers of armor; when we do it, we go through 3 layers.

I will give it to the sword masters, but against heavily armored troops, I'm giving it to white lions and executioners before I give it to Sword Masters, who can be a blender against lightly and moderately armored foes.

[Haagrum]

What I do know this that Druchii have no units of the same caliber as Swordmasters and Dragon Princes.

Thanks, TD. I couldn't stop laughing for about five minutes after I saw that.

As for the original comment...

Ranked-up Swordmasters are decent, sure... but the loss of ASF really hurts them. Retaining their ASF/Murderous Prowess advantage for blocks of less than three ranks, Black Guard and Witch Elves will butcher them like the traitorous vermin they are, even without one of the many readily-available Frenzy buffs that Dark Elves have access to.

Dragon Princes are very good heavy cavalry, but only S3 after they get the charge. If they don't break the enemy on the charge (a strong possibility against large blocks of infantry), they will be ground down over time. Cold One Knights have a shorter charge range, to be sure, but are better in sustained combat and hit even harder on the charge.

You will have to forgive me for showing favoritism here for the Asur, its not that I don't like Druchii but that I like how the Asur are complete hypocrites.

Well, I'm sure there'll be no lack of agreement on that point.

[Saintofm]

What I do know this that Druchii have no units of the same caliber as Swordmasters and Dragon Princes.

Thanks, TD. I couldn't stop laughing for about five minutes after I saw that.

As for the original comment...

Ranked-up Swordmasters are decent, sure... but the loss of ASF really hurts them. Retaining their ASF/Murderous Prowess advantage for blocks of less than three ranks, Black Guard and Witch Elves will butcher them like the traitorous vermin they are, even without one of the many readily-available Frenzy buffs that Dark Elves have access to.

Dragon Princes are very good heavy cavalry, but only S3 after they get the charge. If they don't break the enemy on the charge (a strong possibility against large blocks of infantry), they will be ground down over time. Cold One Knights have a shorter charge range, to be sure, but are better in sustained combat and hit even harder on the charge.

You will have to forgive me for showing favoritism here for the Asur, its not that I don't like Druchii but that I like how the Asur are complete hypocrites.

Well, I'm sure there'll be no lack of agreement on that point.

Or agaisnt other cavalry. I can see a unit of Savage orc Boar Boys making use of their high strength and obnoxious level of attacks to make a elf's day the Underworld

[ZT Strike]

OK, that is funny. I wish you would say what makes you post this but the humor is a decent trade off.

Really? Warlocks are excellent. Dark riders and witches are some of the best core in the game. We have many good units and variant builds.

I haven't played with warlocks yet but they do seem good. Dark Riders are just Reavers to me. I haven't been able to find a way to make witches more fun for me then Corsairs.

Think you really need to reassess the army, or learn to play in a different style that works better for the dark elves.

That is very likely.

Correction: Dragon princes may have attacks up the ying-yang, they are still have lances and Strength 3. Unless they get the charge they have the same problems all heavy cavalry have: After the first turn they are going to get bogged down.

Cold one knights are their equal. What they lack in speed, they make up for in strength. Add the fact they too are always strikes first, your main strength will go nowhere. That and when you charge you go through 2 layers of armor; when we do it, we go through 3 layers.

I will give it to the sword masters, but against heavily armored troops, I'm giving it to white lions and executioners before I give it to Sword Masters, who can be a blender against lightly and moderately armored foes.

I have yet to see my Dragon Prince not tear the living heart out of a unit and get stalled without rolling snake eyes. However, in my defense they are one of my favorite units and have the experience to know where and when to use them.
Cold Ones are awesome, I just don't like the strength/attack trade off as much. They are better against tougher units, but 8th is mainly comprised of large infantry groups, which Princes are amazing against.
Swordmasters I don't use as much anymore for obvious reasons, however when I do take them I generally give them the AP banner. I usually use White Lions where I wouldn't dare take swordmaters, but its because of their cloaks. Executioners don't have that, and I think they are over costed. Still trying to figure out where I like to take them over Black Guard.

As for the original comment...

Ranked-up Swordmasters are decent, sure... but the loss of ASF really hurts them. Retaining their ASF/Murderous Prowess advantage for blocks of less than three ranks, Black Guard and Witch Elves will butcher them like the traitorous vermin they are, even without one of the many readily-available Frenzy buffs that Dark Elves have access to.

Dragon Princes are very good heavy cavalry, but only S3 after they get the charge. If they don't break the enemy on the charge (a strong possibility against large blocks of infantry), they will be ground down over time. Cold One Knights have a shorter charge range, to be sure, but are better in sustained combat and hit even harder on the charge.

I direct you to my last reply.

You will have to forgive me for showing favoritism here for the Asur, its not that I don't like Druchii but that I like how the Asur are complete hypocrites.

Well, I'm sure there'll be no lack of agreement on that point.

There was a reason I got that army before this one.

[Cold73]

@ZT Strike
Glad you finally found the way to join us Druchii in our rightous cause to reclaim our throne.

I will admit that the Asur have some very good troops, but our troops can match them in most regards.... then one obvious block we lack is the Phoenix Guard with their 4++ <3++> ward save.
In short where Asure are defence..we are offence....and we all know the best defence is a good offence. ;-)

I will grand you that Dragon Princes are very good at holding off or cutting way through a unit of weak infantry blocks.
But why would we Dark Elves use our elite cavalry for that task..we have all our infantry and our Hydra who can do the same job and a lot faster....and lets be honest...we need to destroy one enemy unit quicly...there are more units on the batlle field that need our attention.
Meanwhile our cavalry will shine in a differnt role....tacking strong/tough enemy units....like cavalry...monsters.... even if the CoK don;t get a charge off they are still a force to be reckoned with with 3 S4 attacks....vs the Dragon Princes 3 S3 attacks.

Druchii have a lot going for us...but we need to kill quickly...we dont have blocks like the Phoenix Guard who can hold up very strong units by themselves. We don't have the luxury to be in combat with the same unit for longer then a turn..maybe two.

[Daeron]

Hey Strike,

It seems High Elves on our forum are put a bit to the test I hope you take no offence.
I'd like to help you with your questions but I must confess I'm not entirely sure what it is precisely that you ask. The differences between the High and Dark Elves are subtle between some units but fairly large overall, in spite of some similarities.

Going over unit by unit, well.. I'd say this:
Units


Dreadlords and masters
They are somewhat similar to the High Elven lords and princes. We have a 5+ armour save Sea Dragon Cloak which makes a 2+ AS on foot and 1+ on cavalry possible with mundane armour. Murderous Prowess makes them a tad better, especially with high strength weapons. One downside is that we don't have a world dragon banner. This changes our point investment strategy: we won't rely on the unit to save them as often, but rather hope they help to protect the unit.
So expect more investment in protection in general.

The dark pegasus is more popular than the gryphon. One or two are popular takes, more is optional but usually predates our latest book. One unique item that makes a world of difference here is the Cloak of Twillight. On a Master with a lance, you have an affordably flying killer that will mince chariots and monsters... or provide excellent support in charges.

Sorceresses, Supreme or not
Our magic is perhaps slightly weaker, mostly because of the lack of a Book of Hoeth. Since our basic defense is lower, a defensive magic is both more desirable and less effective than it is with a high elf army. We usually synergize well with offensive magic and anything that helps us get the most out of the first rounds of combat.

Low level sorceresses are usually picked for particular signature spells... but even so they aren't very popular because supportive magic can be delivered by Warlocks.

Dreadspears, Bleakswords
I suppose they are essentially the same as the spears and lothern sea guard. Some people prefer the spears, some prefer the parry save from the bleakswords. It's not a very popular choice... they offer a fine statline for the price but the other units are generally preferred.

Darkshards
Without a doubt, the Dark Elves have it easier to provide a volume of attacks due to the Repeater Crossbows. But the Darkshards are generally considered expensive for their purpose. This is where the martial prowess of the high elves can weigh in, making even an archer unit more effective, mobile and defensive... all at the same time.
The Dark Elves do have the option to equip them with shields and a flaming banner, so that's an interesting venue!
They are employed in both small units or medium sized units.

Corsairs
A 4+ armour save is what separates them from other units in both books. They have a fair offence, but nothing special. They are employed in both small units, with or without the bows or in larger units with the dual hand weapons.

Witch Elves
The real difference between the two races lies here: witch elves vs silverhelms. Their frenzy makes them ITP and gives them an astounding amount of poisoned attacks. They are the low strength blender unit.

They can come in small numbers, as a chaff unit or in a large unit. A large unit can come with or without cauldron of blood, both options are viable. The cauldron of blood makes it "half a deathstar", much like the banner of the world dragon would make a unit half a death star.
It gives them a 5++ against all sources and a 4++ against magic. With a reroll to wound and considering the astounding amount of attacks, you can expect a terrible amount of wounds coming in before armour saves.

Where High Elves can field silver helms as either bus or chaff, counting on the 2+ armour save, they aren't a particularly offensive unit unless considerably boosted. The Dark Elves counter this with a unit that has a high offensive power, regardless of unit size, but can be beefed up to be an allround effective unit.

Reavers and Dark Riders
Dark Riders are slightly better, but the difference is small.... IF you compare only the units with one another. A crucial difference is that the dark steeds of Dark Riders themselves give the fast cavalry rule. This makes it possible to put a character in the unit and retain fast cavalry. You can make a fast cavalry death star which is something high elves can not do as far as I know.

If you liked reavers before, you'll like dark riders. If you needn't one more push to try Reavers, you'll definitely want to try Dark Riders. If you like a reaver or silverhelm bus, try a dark rider bus.

Cold One Knights vs Dragon Princes
In theory, cold one knights are slightly better because of the S4 on riders and mounts and because of murderous prowess... That is before you factor in the banner of the world dragon and stupidity. The stupidity makes them less reliable and unable to flee. Where 5 dragon princes would be excellent chaff hunters because of their speed and high number of attacks, Cold One Knights are a bit more tricky.
Both are greatly helped by being paired up with mounted characters to boost their offence.

Shades vs Shadowwarriors
Shades win. Without a doubt. They don't just win, you actually want to take a small unit with you. BS5 and repeater crossbows makes them powerful. I recommend two hand weapons for a small unit and great weapons for a larger unit.

Executioners
They win to many high elf infantry because of the price tag. That is their key advantage. The painful part is the 5+ armour save with... nothing else to protect them. Anything to give them more staying power is a great help.
Another reason they are popular is because we have fewer tools to deal with armour. They are one of the most accessible ways to deal with that.

Black Guard
You love them, you hate them. Phoenix guard without the ward save.... They are a defensive unit without resilience but they are somewhat powerful.

Cold One Chariot
Arguably one of the best Elven chariots but the stupidity and lower movement tackles their reliability. This makes them more popular in pairs, where I see High Elves go fine with just one.

Scourgerunner Chariot
Much like the skycutter, it's a neat addition but no cigar.

Reaper Bolt Thrower
Essentially the same the High Elf one.

Hydra
It's a great monster, but won't devour units. It's very good as a support unit or a chaff killer.

Kharybdiss
Same, with less defensive and more offence.

Sisters of Battle
Nothing to see here.. move along. These ladies are a specialist tool which I think even confuses more experienced dark elf players. They allow some odd combinations (with a bloodwrack shrine for example) but they are a bit "weird" for the purpose they seem to serve, but now without expensive price tag.

Bloodwrack Medusa
Nifty chaff unit. Give it a try.

Bloodwrack Shrine
Excellent booster for units. Proven to work well with pretty much any infantry unit. Combined with a bleaksword or dreadspear unit, you can push your caster to the second rank of the unit, effectively making her unreachable in close combat (unless you're flanked).
It does add to the punch and staying power of units like Executioners and Corsairs.

Warlocks
The bee's knees. You want 5. You may want 2x5. You might want to try a bus of 10 and another support unit of 5. The 4+ ward save works even against their miscasts. Now who wouldn't want a level 2 caster with a top notch magic missile, superb fast cavalry and all that in one neat package for only 125 points?
Try it. You'll feel dirty for it, but it's worth it.


Popular list styles

There's different list styles, but I'll just list a few styles that have been popular with the new book... or old tricks that might make a reappearance.

Two Towers
A horde of witch elves with a cauldron of blood + a horde of executioners with a bloodwrack shrine. Sprinkle with two or three fast cavalry units and a level 4 caster. Season the rest to heart's content.

Playstyle:
- Steamroll over enemy units, possibly with support.
- It's alright to take two turns of combat or more... you'll smash it down.

Fast Cavalry Bus
10 Dark Riders, 10 Warlocks, some smaller units of both and a lot of dark steed mounted characters. Add in some shades if you must, but it's optional. The army hits like a truck, casts like crazy and is hard to catch.

Playstyle:
- Avoid the enemy while casting and shooting on units to soften them
- Carefully pick your charge targets, then steamroll that unit as quickly as you can.
- It's not recommended to fight for long,unless your front rank is made up of characters entirely and you have no retalliation to fear.

Death by a thousand cuts
Dark Riders, shades, bolt throwers, warlocks and characters on pegs or joining either unit. The goal is an avoidance army while producing enough killing power by the sheer volume of missiles. Perfect in combination with shadow magic.

Playstyle:
- Avoid the enemy
- Shoot and cast while encircling the enemy
- Fight only to finish something or clear chaff.

Executioner spam
Two large units of executioners, 21 each at least. There should be an option to take more, but that's optional. You can combine this with witch brew hags, one for each executioner unit. The support can be anything you want, though a coven of light magic has been used a couple of times I think.

Playstyle:
- More varied. The Executioners are generally hit-and-win units, but they depend heavily on support to choose their targets and survive protracted combat.

Final notes

You may realize that we rarely rely on sitting back and softening the enemy from a defensive position. There's two reasons:
- We have better offensive
- We don't have such variety in defensive units. The Darkshards are a tad expensive to make that army cost effective.

Our units tend to go down faster than high elf units. The trick is to take down the opponent quicker or use our superior mobility to avoid them.

[Amboadine]

Daeron, that is one lovely post and a good summation of the comparisons.
Might be worth making this a sticky somewhere.

[MangoPunch]

Excellent post Daeron!

I think there are a few key strengths of the high elves (relative to the dark elves) that you are omitting:
1) HEs are imh0 superior in magic. They have all the tricks the dark elves have but also have tools for strategies that we don’t. The first such is BoH on an Archmage with high magic, allows for them to trickle out lots of reasonably powerful spells on 2 dice – a strategy for which we would have to rely on the sacrificial dagger and would be prohibitively costly. Secondly, they have the Lore Master, which allows insane amounts of versatility in the magic phase; 8 spells, yes please.
2) High elves Griffon to Dark Pegasus isn’t the right comparison, they have access to ride great eagles which are essentially the same (and allow the same builds) as our dark peg masters and dread lords. I am not sure why more high elves players don’t employ this build, although I am suspicious that they just aren’t as dedicated at converting miniatures as us. Or their access to…
3) Insanely useful support fliers in the form of great eagles and frostheart phoenixes. At 50 points great eagles might be the most versatile chaff in the game. And the Frostheart is a very hard nut to crack for its points cost and an incredibly reliable support unit. ASL and -1 Strength whenever it is in combat is very good – especially when you compare it to the de-buffs we have access to in the form or magic, which costs 3-4 dice (for a warlock soulblight) and is often dispelled.

[ZT Strike]

So I must post this before responses. Sorry for the break in tradition.
Today I fought my first battle with the Durchii, against none other the the Asur themselves. I lead my army of 2000 allotment on an invasion of the Blighted Isle. We fought hard and well, and where utterly victorious. The Alter of Khaine has been recaptured and with it our people's can one again worship our great deity at the proper place. From here we prepare, assembling more forces to either counter what the Asur may bring or Invade our former homeland once more.
The lists (from what I remember):
Druchii:
Dreadlord, on Coldone, with Lance, Shield, and Heavy armor.
In a unit of 5 coldone knights, musician, and the banner of swiftness (+1 movement.)
3 War Hydras
4 Bolt Throwers
Supreme Sorceress, lvl 4, lore of life, Fresh to Stone, Throne of Vines, Regrowth, Dwellers Bellow
in a unit of 20 Darkshards, no mods
Master, Flying our Battle Standard.
In a unit of 20 Corsairs, Musician, Standard.

Asur:
2 Bolt Throwers
1 Eagle
5 Dragons Princes, Banner of the World Dragon
10 White Lions, Standard, Musician, ???
12 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Standard, Musician
1 Lion Chariot
2 Units of 10 Archers
35 Spearmen, Standard, Musician
8 Silver Helms
1 Archmage, lvl 4, Lore of Life, Earth Blood, Fresh to Stone, Regrowth, Dwellers Bellow (in archers)
1 Noble on Horse, in Silver Helms

Deployment:
The maps only deciding feature was a mountain about 6" to the right of the center, about 18" in diameter. It effectively split the field into 2 zones of battle. The Left side being about 30" wide and the right being about 18". He rolled to deploy first.
First he played a bolt thrower on the back far left, triggering all war machines to place as we know the rules. He placed his other in the back center. I replied putting batteries of 2 opposing each 1 of his. Next he placed an archer unit, near the far left bolt thrower, but at the 12" line. I replied with my darkshards in the center on the 12" line. Next he placed his swordmasters right of his archers, then I placed my Corsairs next to my left battery to screen them. Another archer unit came in to the right of his swordmasters, and I placed my Cold Ones on the very Far right. He jumped with excitement as he saw me place my hard hitting unit so far away, and placed his White Lions between the 2nd archer group and the mountain. Next I placed my 1st Hydra on the right next to the mountain. He replied with the lion Chariot in the very back Center to be able to move down both sides if possible. I placed my 2nd Hydra 1" to the right of the first, he placed his Dragon Princes counter to the 2nd Hydra. I finished my normal with my 3rd Hydra 1" to the right of my 2nd Hydra, he moved in the 35 spearmen between the swordmasters and the center archer unit. I placed my lords as above, he place his Eagle behind his first archers. Finally, his Silver Helms Went to the far left, and he then his lords.

I won first turn. I moved my cold ones ahead 12, parallel with my hydras, and moved my darkshards up 5". Magic was very successful as I cast dwellers on the spear men leaving him with 9. Don't remember exactly what else sadly. I opened up shooting with my darkshards on his spearmen, dropping them to 5, and all 4 bolt Throwers took shots at the Swordmasters bringing them down to 3.
His turn, he moved all units on the left flank their maximum march except the archers. Durring magic he started with regrowth on his Swordmasters, regrowing 3 but miscasting in the process. With the roll of snake eyes for the miscast he wounded his mage and wiped out half of his archer unit. He also lost 2d6 from his power pull, leaving me to dispel what was left. Shooting only killed 1 darkshard.

Turn 2, on the right I closed my Hydras to as close to his dragon princes as I could, and moved my cold ones into a position where both hydras and knights could counter charge in the event of stalled combat. (I figured any unit had a good chance to hold.) My left didn't move. Magic only resulted in an active throne for me. In shooting my darkshard and center battery finished off his swordmasters, with my left battery single shooting the Sliver Helms for 2 wounds. His turn his Dragon Princes charge my center Hydra, Sliver Helms failed to charge my corsairs causing a wound from over watch, and his spearmen charged my darkshards but were shot to death by over watch. He moved the rest of his infantry forward, while pulling back his Eagle to support the Lion Chariot in the rear of his zone. Magic, saw all spells dispelled or failed. Shooting killed 3 Corsairs. Combat saw the Dragon Princes cause 3 wounds on the Hydra with 1 being saved. The 3 hydras, all being in combat due to touching bases from the charge, ate his Princes.

Turn 3, I moved my right around to charge range of the eagle and Lion Chariot. Magic was sad. Shooting Killed his Silver Helms which caused him to become fully disheartened and flee to Ulthuan.

What I learned: Dark Shards are great core. Hydras are OP!

@ZT Strike
Glad you finally found the way to join us Druchii in our rightous cause to reclaim our throne.

I will admit that the Asur have some very good troops, but our troops can match them in most regards.... then one obvious block we lack is the Phoenix Guard with their 4++ <3++> ward save.
In short where Asure are defence..we are offence....and we all know the best defence is a good offence. ;-)

I will grand you that Dragon Princes are very good at holding off or cutting way through a unit of weak infantry blocks.
But why would we Dark Elves use our elite cavalry for that task..we have all our infantry and our Hydra who can do the same job and a lot faster....and lets be honest...we need to destroy one enemy unit quicly...there are more units on the batlle field that need our attention.
Meanwhile our cavalry will shine in a differnt role....tacking strong/tough enemy units....like cavalry...monsters.... even if the CoK don;t get a charge off they are still a force to be reckoned with with 3 S4 attacks....vs the Dragon Princes 3 S3 attacks.

Druchii have a lot going for us...but we need to kill quickly...we dont have blocks like the Phoenix Guard who can hold up very strong units by themselves. We don't have the luxury to be in combat with the same unit for longer then a turn..maybe two.

Thank you for the welcome and the tips.

Hey Strike,

It seems High Elves on our forum are put a bit to the test I hope you take no offence.
I'd like to help you with your questions but I must confess I'm not entirely sure what it is precisely that you ask. The differences between the High and Dark Elves are subtle between some units but fairly large overall, in spite of some similarities.

Going over unit by unit, well.. I'd say this:
Units


Dreadlords and masters
They are somewhat similar to the High Elven lords and princes. We have a 5+ armour save Sea Dragon Cloak which makes a 2+ AS on foot and 1+ on cavalry possible with mundane armour. Murderous Prowess makes them a tad better, especially with high strength weapons. One downside is that we don't have a world dragon banner. This changes our point investment strategy: we won't rely on the unit to save them as often, but rather hope they help to protect the unit.
So expect more investment in protection in general.

The dark pegasus is more popular than the gryphon. One or two are popular takes, more is optional but usually predates our latest book. One unique item that makes a world of difference here is the Cloak of Twillight. On a Master with a lance, you have an affordably flying killer that will mince chariots and monsters... or provide excellent support in charges.

Sorceresses, Supreme or not
Our magic is perhaps slightly weaker, mostly because of the lack of a Book of Hoeth. Since our basic defense is lower, a defensive magic is both more desirable and less effective than it is with a high elf army. We usually synergize well with offensive magic and anything that helps us get the most out of the first rounds of combat.

Low level sorceresses are usually picked for particular signature spells... but even so they aren't very popular because supportive magic can be delivered by Warlocks.

Dreadspears, Bleakswords
I suppose they are essentially the same as the spears and lothern sea guard. Some people prefer the spears, some prefer the parry save from the bleakswords. It's not a very popular choice... they offer a fine statline for the price but the other units are generally preferred.

Darkshards
Without a doubt, the Dark Elves have it easier to provide a volume of attacks due to the Repeater Crossbows. But the Darkshards are generally considered expensive for their purpose. This is where the martial prowess of the high elves can weigh in, making even an archer unit more effective, mobile and defensive... all at the same time.
The Dark Elves do have the option to equip them with shields and a flaming banner, so that's an interesting venue!
They are employed in both small units or medium sized units.

Corsairs
A 4+ armour save is what separates them from other units in both books. They have a fair offence, but nothing special. They are employed in both small units, with or without the bows or in larger units with the dual hand weapons.

Witch Elves
The real difference between the two races lies here: witch elves vs silverhelms. Their frenzy makes them ITP and gives them an astounding amount of poisoned attacks. They are the low strength blender unit.

They can come in small numbers, as a chaff unit or in a large unit. A large unit can come with or without cauldron of blood, both options are viable. The cauldron of blood makes it "half a deathstar", much like the banner of the world dragon would make a unit half a death star.
It gives them a 5++ against all sources and a 4++ against magic. With a reroll to wound and considering the astounding amount of attacks, you can expect a terrible amount of wounds coming in before armour saves.

Where High Elves can field silver helms as either bus or chaff, counting on the 2+ armour save, they aren't a particularly offensive unit unless considerably boosted. The Dark Elves counter this with a unit that has a high offensive power, regardless of unit size, but can be beefed up to be an allround effective unit.

Reavers and Dark Riders
Dark Riders are slightly better, but the difference is small.... IF you compare only the units with one another. A crucial difference is that the dark steeds of Dark Riders themselves give the fast cavalry rule. This makes it possible to put a character in the unit and retain fast cavalry. You can make a fast cavalry death star which is something high elves can not do as far as I know.

If you liked reavers before, you'll like dark riders. If you needn't one more push to try Reavers, you'll definitely want to try Dark Riders. If you like a reaver or silverhelm bus, try a dark rider bus.

Cold One Knights vs Dragon Princes
In theory, cold one knights are slightly better because of the S4 on riders and mounts and because of murderous prowess... That is before you factor in the banner of the world dragon and stupidity. The stupidity makes them less reliable and unable to flee. Where 5 dragon princes would be excellent chaff hunters because of their speed and high number of attacks, Cold One Knights are a bit more tricky.
Both are greatly helped by being paired up with mounted characters to boost their offence.

Shades vs Shadowwarriors
Shades win. Without a doubt. They don't just win, you actually want to take a small unit with you. BS5 and repeater crossbows makes them powerful. I recommend two hand weapons for a small unit and great weapons for a larger unit.

Executioners
They win to many high elf infantry because of the price tag. That is their key advantage. The painful part is the 5+ armour save with... nothing else to protect them. Anything to give them more staying power is a great help.
Another reason they are popular is because we have fewer tools to deal with armour. They are one of the most accessible ways to deal with that.

Black Guard
You love them, you hate them. Phoenix guard without the ward save.... They are a defensive unit without resilience but they are somewhat powerful.

Cold One Chariot
Arguably one of the best Elven chariots but the stupidity and lower movement tackles their reliability. This makes them more popular in pairs, where I see High Elves go fine with just one.

Scourgerunner Chariot
Much like the skycutter, it's a neat addition but no cigar.

Reaper Bolt Thrower
Essentially the same the High Elf one.

Hydra
It's a great monster, but won't devour units. It's very good as a support unit or a chaff killer.

Kharybdiss
Same, with less defensive and more offence.

Sisters of Battle
Nothing to see here.. move along. These ladies are a specialist tool which I think even confuses more experienced dark elf players. They allow some odd combinations (with a bloodwrack shrine for example) but they are a bit "weird" for the purpose they seem to serve, but now without expensive price tag.

Bloodwrack Medusa
Nifty chaff unit. Give it a try.

Bloodwrack Shrine
Excellent booster for units. Proven to work well with pretty much any infantry unit. Combined with a bleaksword or dreadspear unit, you can push your caster to the second rank of the unit, effectively making her unreachable in close combat (unless you're flanked).
It does add to the punch and staying power of units like Executioners and Corsairs.

Warlocks
The bee's knees. You want 5. You may want 2x5. You might want to try a bus of 10 and another support unit of 5. The 4+ ward save works even against their miscasts. Now who wouldn't want a level 2 caster with a top notch magic missile, superb fast cavalry and all that in one neat package for only 125 points?
Try it. You'll feel dirty for it, but it's worth it.


Popular list styles

There's different list styles, but I'll just list a few styles that have been popular with the new book... or old tricks that might make a reappearance.

Two Towers
A horde of witch elves with a cauldron of blood + a horde of executioners with a bloodwrack shrine. Sprinkle with two or three fast cavalry units and a level 4 caster. Season the rest to heart's content.

Playstyle:
- Steamroll over enemy units, possibly with support.
- It's alright to take two turns of combat or more... you'll smash it down.

Fast Cavalry Bus
10 Dark Riders, 10 Warlocks, some smaller units of both and a lot of dark steed mounted characters. Add in some shades if you must, but it's optional. The army hits like a truck, casts like crazy and is hard to catch.

Playstyle:
- Avoid the enemy while casting and shooting on units to soften them
- Carefully pick your charge targets, then steamroll that unit as quickly as you can.
- It's not recommended to fight for long,unless your front rank is made up of characters entirely and you have no retalliation to fear.

Death by a thousand cuts
Dark Riders, shades, bolt throwers, warlocks and characters on pegs or joining either unit. The goal is an avoidance army while producing enough killing power by the sheer volume of missiles. Perfect in combination with shadow magic.

Playstyle:
- Avoid the enemy
- Shoot and cast while encircling the enemy
- Fight only to finish something or clear chaff.

Executioner spam
Two large units of executioners, 21 each at least. There should be an option to take more, but that's optional. You can combine this with witch brew hags, one for each executioner unit. The support can be anything you want, though a coven of light magic has been used a couple of times I think.

Playstyle:
- More varied. The Executioners are generally hit-and-win units, but they depend heavily on support to choose their targets and survive protracted combat.

Final notes

You may realize that we rarely rely on sitting back and softening the enemy from a defensive position. There's two reasons:
- We have better offensive
- We don't have such variety in defensive units. The Darkshards are a tad expensive to make that army cost effective.

Our units tend to go down faster than high elf units. The trick is to take down the opponent quicker or use our superior mobility to avoid them.

A very good and detailed synopsis. Many thanks. I am still puzzling over Executioners and Black Guard... Executioners seem to be a great choice against Warriors, and Black Guard seem like they would tear through core infantry. I'm thinking they would be amazing with the AP banner.

[Amboadine]

Congratulations on your win. But you may find you reassess your learning that Hydras are overpowered after a few games.

[ZT Strike]

they got a weakness that I don't see?

[Cold73]

Hydra's are good...but will be simply butchers by units with Poison Attacks...or anything with S5 or higher attacks..
However...running them in pairs..or as you did triple...makes them a force to be reckoned with....

Unless someone uses Pit of Shades...and you loose all Hydra's in on spell
Or one of them is killed by magic or shooting..and the rest runs of the table because they are just out of range of your General.

[Searinox Nagharha]

As said hyrda's are by no means the beasts that they used to be. from the last book you could generally just point and click them into something and with a 4+/4++ they would just stall anything that stood infront of them.
however with their new rules linking their attacks to their remaining wounds and there new 'Regen' only regaining wounds on your turn they arent the same anymore though ofcourse if your bringing 3 of them and charge them into 1 unit they will wreck hell

[ZT Strike]

Noted, keep hydras and a lord together. I would love to use a high beastmaster but I need to find a manicore model.