SoS: Dark Elf Wardancers?

[marcopollo]

If the target is hard to kill, sisters will be better. It's a guaranteed cancellation of rank bonus. Sometimes chariot charge fluffs completely and doesn't contribute, sometimes the chariot gets broken.

I think sisters are simply more reliable.

But what type of units get into the backfield early? You get flying stuff (no ranks), fast cav (no ranks), skirmisher/scouts (few ranks -- maybe). You might get a deathstar cav bus that rampages. But those cost alot of points and are delayed by redirectors/chaff. But by and large, big rank hordes don't usually make it into the backfield early. So sisters will not be getting rank cancellations if there are no ranks in the first place.

In my mind, they are a 2nd/3rd wave unit, that hits main blocks head on after re-directors and shooting blocks are engaged/destroyed. But that is a pretty niche spot for them and DE have alot of those types of units.

[Ming]

Ming wrote:
I'll soon be fielding 10 SoS with champ and muso. I'm wondering if their parry save can stack with their 4plus Ward save.
They should be 6AS, 6 parry save and 3plus ward save in hth? Right?



No? 6+ AS and a 4+ Ward save.

Thank you for your answer Gerner.
I agree with you mostly, and I know that 3+ ward save Sister would be quite over the top (but not better than armoured PG with high mage using attribute).

Playing devil's advocate, SoS have a special rule giving them 4+ Ward Save in CC.
They are equipped with HW and SH, combo that gives them the general parry save rule.
I nowhere see they don't get that parry save in HtH.
So, what prevents them from getting that bonus WS and stack it with their special rule?
Sure, they can remove parry save from one opponent, but their own??

IMO, SoS were designed to have special weapons.
They clearly wield whips or one handed flails, but not hand weapons.
Then, when models were already finished, M. Ward or some other games designer cried "OMG, those Sisters with Ap weapons, or +1 S weapons are way overpowered!", and they settlede for HW.
Forgetting that SoS would then benefit from Parry save.....

[Dalamar]

Ward saves don't stack. Yes, they have parry save and regular ward save rendering the parry save useless.

[Ming]

Ward saves don't stack. Yes, they have parry save and regular ward save rendering the parry save useless.

Ok, thank you Dalamar.
I'll use them as they are.
Anyway their problems are vs shooting, not HtH.

[marcopollo]

SoS killing potential is relatively small compared to executioners or WE. They have great staying power once engaged. I think that a 2x5 (small frontage) that runs along side a big block of corsairs/WE/swordsmen is a good way to use them. They can protect an outside flank that way. But, if I had better killers in a combat, I wouldn't want to replace those models with SoS.

Conga line (or pseudo conga line) tactics for this unit.

[Entreri bloodletter]

People were comparing chariots to SoS earlier in this thread, why not use them together instead of replacing one with the other?

The problem chariots have always had is that they provide kills but no static combat res at all. This was often compensated by charging large blocks of cheapish troops to provide the SCR while the chariots provided the ACR.

Now we have a unit that not only takes away our opponents SCR but reduces our own casualties with a built in 4+ ward, not only that, but the sisters are actually decent at providing a few kills themselves depending on the opponent. This creates an even better situation than before because often the troops that provide the SCR are not very durable themselves and can give up too many wounds.

Now we look at our command group options, we can take up to a 50 point magic banner. Now I think that we should stack all the SCR we can because it will be guaranteed to work- this means taking the War Banner. Looking at this all together we have 2 SCR from banners, no rank bonus for the opponent, troops that can provide a few kills themselves and are as resistant to dying as a Dark Elf can get.

Going one step further I think that the Bloodwrack Shrine would be a perfect addition for this unit. It provides the bonuses that a regular chariot does, is pretty durable in close combat, boosts our own unit's Ld, provides anti-armor capabilities and perhaps most importantly gives us lots of RANKS. A minimum size unit of Sisters and a BWS together already have a footprint of 25 models worth (5x5), which translates into an additional +3 SCR. (Note that I would probably take a few extra bodies to account for ranged casualties)

Altogether we have +5 SCR from ranks and banners, no rank bonus for the enemy, a very durable anvil that will kill a few enemies in exchange. Thus we have an anvil that can not only be expected to hold their ground but actually has a very good chance of breaking the enemy as well.

Here are some rough numbers of how this unit does against common threats

6 Chaos Knights charging, 8 attacks vs Shrine, 4 hits, 1.33 wounds
4 attacks vs SoS, 2 hits, 1 wound after saves

6 SoS attacks back, probably 6 hits, 3 wounds, .5 wounds after saves
Shrine, don't know exact numbers but probably a very low chance to cause any wounds. All combined maybe do 1 wound back to knights
So combat looks like 2-3 wounds for the knights, maybe a banner, for DE we have 5 SCR and maybe 1 wound.

The knights lose by 2 or so and are now testing on Ld 5 (Ld 7 because of BWS and then -2)!
The best part about this is that we have not lost any combat effectiveness and can definitely contribute to another fight in the game without fear.

Maybe someone else could run some numbers on some other units but I believe this could be a very solid unit that people will find surprisingly durable.

[Calisson]

Excellent observations, Entreri.
I would call the sisters + shrine a "step dance" formation.

[Ming]

Excellent observations, Entreri.

+1 - As soon as I'll assemble the BWS kit I'll give it a try with SoS

I would call the sisters + shrine a "step dance" formation.
Excellent observations, Entreri.
I would call the sisters + shrine a "step dance" formation.

That actually made me LOL!

[T.D.]

Updated with reference to good pros-and-cons discussion on the Sisters:

- Including Scyloc's break down of the merits of the Sisters in (i) a Static Combat Resolution Role and (ii) Flaming Hit-Squad Role. With battle feedback.

- Including Sangfroid's employment of the Hit-Squad in a "Tag Team" formation, with battle feedback.

Here: http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=75511

[Lord Drakon]

The Slaughter Shrine of Sisters can indeed function as a tough anvil I believe ! Not just an anvil, but a dangerous one because of high chance to better Combat Resolution. It can be an Dark Elf answer to Skaven, Empire, Orc & Goblin and Lizardmen Hordes and Anvils.

I also believe that an Assassin in the Slaughter Shrine can be very effective. Most enemy hordes or other big units like busses have fighty characters and champions. Especially by the use of Challenges you keep the Assassin safe from enemy troop attacks while it removes characters easily. OST is normally bad for the Sister unit but in Slaughter Shrine formation he is not in base contact with them so does not delete their ward saves !

Afraid your Slaughter captain gets killed by normal troops if no challenges are possible ? The Shrine is terror and creates fear : which can lower enemy WS. Both Shadow and Heaven signatures can make it more difficult to hit the Assassin. With Glitterling Scales and his high WS that is most of the times 6 to hit. But indeed, poison = dangerous as he remain fragile without armour or ward.

Combine them with a Kharibdyss and you can break any unit !

Combined with high strength units like Executioners, Cold One Knights and Manticores it deletes busses !

Here is why :
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 98#p916398

NOTE: Besides pure tactical uses of this combined unit. Model-wise the Slaughter Shrine will look awesome ! Your impressive Shrine, on both sides joined by 5 Sisters ? Hell, the Slaughter Shrine can be the centerpiece of any Khainite army ! Fluffy, Tactically strong and Modelling wise impressive

[Calisson]

Thanks for the link, Drake. Good read.

[T.D.]

Excellent article, Lord Drakon