Protecting large targets from cannonballs

[Dalamar]

Cannons are very easily blocked... i think I'm actually going to write a guide on how not to get hit by cannons...

[T.D.]

Cannons are very easily blocked... i think I'm actually going to write a guide on how not to get hit by cannons...

Would appreciate this!

And any other anti-artillery tactics you have in mind

[Liquidedust]

Cannons are very easily blocked... i think I'm actually going to write a guide on how not to get hit by cannons...

I'd really like to see a proper write-up on this as well, since with TLoS cannons majority of the time seems to have no problem to pick the spots they want to target when shooting at stuff.

[Trax]

Our gaming group even plays with a category sight system (like it's supposed to be with a non-skirmish miniature game... TBH![/bias]), so I've got it even easier here than most (I guess), and still cannons play a grander part in the movement during rounds 1-2 than they should. And like I said: Once a target is large, it's pretty much over. I can shield infantry (yay) and chariots, but that's pretty much it, the rest mostly doesn't go where it's used best, but where it's shot the least. Well, maybe one day cannons won't hit at 100% horizontal accuracy (is this a thing?^^).

[Calisson]

Cannons still need not to misfire (1/6, sometimes rerollable) and to hit the target (roughly 50% if you aim 10" short).
At least, do not present front of a long target, but rather flank, so that the shot must be at 10" exactly, not 12" or 8".
Also, if there is an obstacle, the bounce stops right at the obstacle, so there remain only 1/6 chances for a hit on the spot.

[Trax]

Yeah, I know a cannon hit is somewhat less likely than one tend to believe (I think Warhammer-Empire had a great roundup somewhere, it's been), but the problem is, you may never ever risk to get one on your monsters (or w/e) since unlike with our RBTs which happen to hit even at almost the same rate (depending on range/cover etc sometimes better sometimes worse), they wound pretty much nothing *not* on 2+ an d6 wounds is enough to kill everything but... two monsters or so in one go. That's no coin-toss I'm willing to take.

[Dalamar]

By blocking the field of vision to that magical spot 10" from the back of the monster's base.

10 Corsairs, walking roughly 12" in front of the monster will make it impossible to aim the perfect cannon shot. Can they still shoot the monster? Yes, but the dice get much less forgiving.

[Trax]

It took me a minute, but I'm embarrassed I've never thought of this. Please, do write that article of yours (Doesn't help against the STank, but still).

[Dalamar]

Last tournament I played I used enemy units to great effect to block their own cannon shots to my dragon (hint: A dwarf unit next to a cannon will obscure its line of sight *perfectly* in that direction)

[Askador]

Last tournament I played I used enemy units to great effect to block their own cannon shots to my dragon (hint: A dwarf unit next to a cannon will obscure its line of sight *perfectly* in that direction)

Isnt that something the "Huge Target" Rule, makes the cannon have no blocked sight on a Dragon?

[Dalamar]

You can see the dragon, but cannons don't target models (well, they can but nobody does) but points on the battlefield. Which is very flat and easy to block line of sight to.

[OldCrow]

Aye, the general idea is that you simply use the body of a model (something that even the most generous TLoS fan can't see past) to block the space that they'd shoot at. That paired with presenting the flank of your model to the cannon means they have to get a much tighter bounce to actually connect with your monster.

[Phierlihy]

My opponents who use cannons get super-irritated when I get down to eye-level with the battlefield and inevitably say "I don't think your cannon can see that". To be effective, a cannon needs to be on a hill or on the front line (where I can charge it). Stupid Shadowblade nerf....*grumble*

[Zarb]

Ok, I'm probably a bit thick here, but how does that help? Why don't they just nominate the spot where your infantry is, kill it and then bounce into the monster afterwards Oh sure, 1-6 chance it won't kill the model, but still

[Dalamar]

Because you unit is further away than the magical "10 from the back" spot, meaning the roll on bounce needs to be higher.
Also when they aim for the infantry with intentions of hitting the monster behind they are likely to miss both.

[Liquidedust]

Because you unit is further away than the magical "10 from the back" spot, meaning the roll on bounce needs to be higher.
Also when they aim for the infantry with intentions of hitting the monster behind they are likely to miss both.

But with true line of sight and a fine laser pointer (which most of the players at my club use, myself included) you can almost always find a spot in which you can aim the pointer on ground behind the unit that is screening and still hit the monster though Dalamar.

[strategem]

yeah all the dwarf players at my club use their laser pointers

[Liquidedust]

yeah all the dwarf players at my club use their laser pointers

Yeah, short of solid blocks you wont really be able to screen any piece of ground from a warmachine due to TLoS :/

[Dyvim tvar]

If the unit is 3-ranks deep and slightly angled, I don't think you would be able to see through it--especially corsairs with their wide cloaks.

[Liquidedust]

If the unit is 3-ranks deep and slightly angled, I don't think you would be able to see through it--especially corsairs with their wide cloaks.

Yeah doable, but that is a quite expensive screen still

Though on a semi-related topic, would their cloaks fall under the same rules as tails, wings and weapons in regard to line of sight; or are they considered part of the torso?

[Dyvim tvar]

If the unit is 3-ranks deep and slightly angled, I don't think you would be able to see through it--especially corsairs with their wide cloaks.

Yeah doable, but that is a quite expensive screen still

Though on a semi-related topic, would their cloaks fall under the same rules as tails, wings and weapons in regard to line of sight; or are they considered part of the torso?

Not sure where you are going with this. Tails, wings and weapons matter for trying to draw line of sight to the model with the tail, wing or weapon in question. Even if tails, wings or weapons are not sufficient to allow line of sight to the unit with the tail, wing or weapon, I believe that the tails, wings or weapons can still do their part in blocking line of sight to something else.

[Liquidedust]

If the unit is 3-ranks deep and slightly angled, I don't think you would be able to see through it--especially corsairs with their wide cloaks.

Yeah doable, but that is a quite expensive screen still

Though on a semi-related topic, would their cloaks fall under the same rules as tails, wings and weapons in regard to line of sight; or are they considered part of the torso?

Not sure where you are going with this. Tails, wings and weapons matter for trying to draw line of sight to the model with the tail, wing or weapon in question. Even if tails, wings or weapons are not sufficient to allow line of sight to the unit with the tail, wing or weapon, I believe that the tails, wings or weapons can still do their part in blocking line of sight to something else.

Basically this

For one model to have line of sight to another you must be able to trace an unblocked line from its eyes to any part of the body (i.e. the head, torso, arms or legs) of the target.

Sometimes, all that that will be visible of a model is a weapon, banner or other ornament he is carrying. In these cases the model is not visible. Similary, we ignore wings and tails, even though they are technically part of a model's body. These rules are intended to ensure that models don't get penalised for having impressive banners, swords, and so on.

So could a model that stands close to the ground with a 8" wingspan shield units behind them with their wings to block line of sight?

This while the model itselfs body is screened by a larger body or piece of terrain that blocks line of sight to the model with the grand wingspann so it cannot be targetted?

[Trax]

Though on a semi-related topic, would their cloaks fall under the same rules as tails, wings and weapons in regard to line of sight; or are they considered part of the torso?

And this, well, this and laser pointers - and this is of course in no way meant offensive, Liquidedust - is the reason why you don't play a miniature wargame wit TLoS. Not that it's my problem anymore, since I won't play another WHFB game with this crappy system any longer, but I actually do hope that they go back to a somewhat more rational system in the 9th ed. If players put out their laser points to point *through models*, then you know your design department screwed up big time. You'd been given a reason to remodel every single miniature to have its cloak or whatever widespread. Great idea... [/rantoff]

[Liquidedust]

Though on a semi-related topic, would their cloaks fall under the same rules as tails, wings and weapons in regard to line of sight; or are they considered part of the torso?

And this, well, this and laser pointers - and this is of course in no way meant offensive, Liquidedust - is the reason why you don't play a miniature wargame wit TLoS. Not that it's my problem anymore, since I won't play another WHFB game with this crappy system any longer, but I actually do hope that they go back to a somewhat more rational system in the 9th ed. If players put out their laser points to point *through models*, then you know your design department screwed up big time. You'd been given a reason to remodel every single miniature to have its cloak or whatever widespread. Great idea... [/rantoff]

No offense taken, its mainly used by me to draw 45 degree angles to look up charges and see if a unit is 50% behind cover or not for me , easier and faster than to eyeball it when a questionable situation comes up

[Dalamar]

Though on a semi-related topic, would their cloaks fall under the same rules as tails, wings and weapons in regard to line of sight; or are they considered part of the torso?

And this, well, this and laser pointers - and this is of course in no way meant offensive, Liquidedust - is the reason why you don't play a miniature wargame wit TLoS. Not that it's my problem anymore, since I won't play another WHFB game with this crappy system any longer, but I actually do hope that they go back to a somewhat more rational system in the 9th ed. If players put out their laser points to point *through models*, then you know your design department screwed up big time. You'd been given a reason to remodel every single miniature to have its cloak or whatever widespread. Great idea... [/rantoff]

As soon as cannons stop shooting through the same gaps I will stop making them aim for the perfect spot they need.

Cannons are overpowered for their cost if you don't use tlos rules now that guessed ranges are gone.