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Chariot tactics discussion 
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Shade
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Hello, I've been collecting warhammer fantasy for a couple years now and started picing up dark elf models here and there when I found deals. Now with the new book I'm finally building and painting my army.

I've converted 4 high elf chariots into cold one chariots. 3 special and 1 for dark elf dreadlord/master.
However tactics wise I don't really know what to do with chariots. I also have no idea what to equip the dark elf lord with or what role he is to play.

I would appreciate discussion on this topic.

A bit more info on the rest of my army:
40 dark elf troops
20 corsiars
30+ witch elves
10 manfried manflayers
2 hydras
2 bolt throwers
10 dark riders
5 warlocks
2 sorceress on pegs
cauldren of blood
Lots of sorceress models

Also got tons of high elves and wood elves to convert from for extra troops, shades, etc...

So what tactics/army builds are best for a heavy chariot list?
Feel free to chat about the beast chariot with bolt thrower too. Since there is no more monster handlers I've got some beastmaster models that could be converted onto some more chariots.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:36 am
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Dark Rider

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Chariots are good at supporting infantry.
Give a big punch to frontage.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:51 pm
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Trainee Warrior
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I also have four converted chariots (one with a removable master, hee hee). I'd say the best use for them is multi-charging, with some large gribblies to share the cannon/arrow/god-knows-what firing load. You can charge in front, but you need a weakened target and 1-2 more for support, depending upon the unit. It is better to hit the flanks though, and to use a BSB bubble to mitigate the scores of stupidity checks you'll take. Chariots will eat chaff for lunch, but you have to be wary that the chaff doesn't distract from the real things you want to hit--infantry sides, weakened ASF high elves (because of the impact hits), etc.

I've only fielded all four once, against WOC, and although I lost (my SS blew herself up in a Blood and Glory scenario. Grrr...), they did well. Lots of wounds and toughness never hurt. I don't know what other people think, but for me I think chariots work best with 1) a nice amount of open space on the board, so you have to deploy well; 2) redirectors, so as to line up flank charges and obscure LOS from folks shooting at you; and 3) other, juicier targets for said folks.

Anybody else love chariots?


Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:04 pm
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Assassin
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I used to run a beastmen army with 4 tuskgor chariots. They were 85 pts each and only T4. They got shot up alot. But, I enjoyed the psychology effect on my opponent when they showed up in deployment. The DE chariot is significantly tougher so it can be used more liberally in the field. But, a cannon to the face still hurts alot. But as mentioned above, you want them charging what you want. So the set up that I think works well is 2 chariots, and either 1 DR group or 1 shade group to help chase/shoot the chaff away.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:26 pm
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Our chariots MUST be used alongside something else. Be it another chariot or an infantry block. Too slow to keep up with knights.

I run my two along side the spearmen or up the flanks, they make surprisingly good warmachine hunters since everyone freaks out and focuses on the dark riders.

When they do charge home they must either obliterate the target or cause enough damage to break it in one turn.

Also they are quite good at getting the odd lone character. I once squished a Dwarf daemon slayer ;)

That's my two cents

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Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:01 pm
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PhD in Dark Magic
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Our two chariots have different roles.

The Cold One Chariots are incredibly good at applying a lot of punch at a single point with a narrow frontage. They hit hard on the charge, but will do very poorly against anything other than chaff in subsequent rounds of combat. They also suffer from Stupidity, which can make them unreliable even on Ld 9 unless you have a nearby BSB or Ld 10 General. I'm not sold on using the chariot as a character mount, if only because we have faster and more mobile options and the chariot isn't a large target (and thus does not expand the radius of Hold Your Ground or Inspiring Presence).

I have found that the best uses for Cold One Chariots have been as follows:

1. Supporting/counter-charging unit - No-one wants to get lined up and charged by a T5 W4 3+ AS chariot with S5 crew that have rerolls to hit. Unfortunately, since our chariots can't keep up with even our infantry on the march, we won't always be able to combo-charge with them. However, this does mean that they can counter-charge anything lining up to hit one of our main combat blocks. Combined with Swiftstride, it means that our chariots have a normal effective threatening range around 15-16", which is enough to keep small threats at bay or force your opponent to manoeuvre accordingly.

2. Chaff clearing - At 115 points, a Cold One Chariot is cheap enough to throw away if need be, and can destroy whatever chaff is thrown in front of it. Don't forget that the riders have repeater crossbows, and since they can't march, they will always be able to shoot.

3. Flanking - I've had chariots cross the table and tear apart multiple enemy war machines more than once, but it takes a while to get there. That said, chariots are able to get into good positions easily (albeit somewhat slowly compared to the rest of our army) and threaten enemy flanks. As Kurze said, people are more worried about Dark Riders (and Warlocks) right now, but a Cold One Chariot can be an effective flanker without being as much of a fire magnet.

Scourgerunner Chariots aren't something I've tried yet, but there are a couple of threads on getting the most out of our new chariot. They can chaff-clear almost as well as the Cold One Chariot (the crew have more attacks, albeit at S4, and without scythes), and can present a few threats to enemy cavalry and monsters with the Ravager Harpoon attack. However, at 35 points more than a regular Cold One Chariot, you really need to position these guys well to get the most out of them. Thankfully, at M9, they are able to keep up with our units and can position themselves reasonably effectively to fire the harpoons without risking a charge from something that could kill them.

If you make them a mount for your High Beastmaster, the harpoons will be hitting on 2+ under most circumstances (even at over half range and after moving). They can fight reasonably well with a High Beastmaster on board, but they're still quite vulnerable - particularly to cannon fire - and very expensive at 300pts without upgrades.

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Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:06 pm
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Highborn
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Haagrum pretty much nailed the basics. Chariots are really for countercharging to provide ACR to block troops or added punch with relatively same speed to a All-Cavalry list. Scourgerunners are different though, charging is their secondary role against chaff maybe but if they can avoid melee and just keep shooting all day then that seems to be the better use for them. Remember that Large targets only gain cover bonuses if theyvare really blocked by cavalry models and can never claim cover bonuses from obstacles. Your Scourgerunner if possible should be behind other units if possible. Your targets arw big monsters anyway

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Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:22 am
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Shade
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Any suggestions for what to give the dreadlord/master on the chariot? For competitive I'd probably leave him out but for random fun games I'll be taking him.

One role I was thinking of was to make him a monster hunter. Give him Chillblade and send him against no armour save monsters.

Otherwise I don't know what to give him. Dark Elf magic items really suck in this book.


Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:54 am
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Noble
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The_Peacemaker wrote:
Otherwise I don't know what to give him. Dark Elf magic items really suck in this book.

Wait.. What?!

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Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:32 pm
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Well, we couldn't expect items of same quality as the previous book. It's the same for every book though... there are just some few items which stand out as really powerful, while most are just a bit meh. We have a few nice items still, even though most builds use more items from the BRB.

I wouldn't use chillblade myself, as I would have more need of armor killers. +2/+3 to strength or using potion of strength/black dragon egg together with lance... Twillight cloak + lance or +2 S weapon is kinda nice for a char that isn't in a unit.

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Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:21 pm
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Shade
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Gerner wrote:
The_Peacemaker wrote:
Otherwise I don't know what to give him. Dark Elf magic items really suck in this book.

Wait.. What?!


um, ya. The 2 best items are the black dragon egg, and the cloak of twilight.
Sac dagger is ok. Its not bad but you either have to build a significant portion of your list around it - wizzard with big bunker, or you take it as a just in case item.

All the other items are pretty useless, not even for fun games. 2 of the items are just expensive rulebook items with a random twist. Other army books items can be crappy too but they are at least situational or can change with the meta.


Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:58 pm
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Dragon Lord
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There are only two useless items in our current book. Banner of Naggarythe (it was always useless) and gem of spite (no idea who considered that item useful in any way).
Everything else is good, some more situational and list dependent than others.

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Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:53 pm
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Highborn
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Dalamar wrote:
There are only two useless items in our current book. Banner of Naggarythe (it was always useless) and gem of spite (no idea who considered that item useful in any way).
Everything else is good, some more situational and list dependent than others.


Which is why I think otherwise. In my opinion there are only 2 items that are good because they are leas situational. Namely the cloak and dagger( hahha what a coincidence) and even I don't consider them as auto takes. My current list doesn't even use any Dark elf items or banners.. I am actually envious of the HE magic items. However the iternal synergy of units within the army book is borderline OP... too many damn good options too few points to fit all in one list..the only blah choices fir me are actually the fleetmaster and spearmen\swordsmen.. :x

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Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:02 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
There are only two useless items in our current book. Banner of Naggarythe (it was always useless) and gem of spite (no idea who considered that item useful in any way).
Everything else is good, some more situational and list dependent than others.

I agree. I especially like Ring of Hotek for the psychological factor.


Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:31 pm
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Shade
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Gidean wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
There are only two useless items in our current book. Banner of Naggarythe (it was always useless) and gem of spite (no idea who considered that item useful in any way).
Everything else is good, some more situational and list dependent than others.

I agree. I especially like Ring of Hotek for the psychological factor.



I think the psychological factor is ASF, Frenzied, Poison attacks with a lots of Repeater xbows and bolt throwers to kill off chaff.


So whats a good build for a dreadlord on chariot? and his role.


Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:14 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Depending on your meta... if you face many cannons, there is no good build unfortunately.
Otherwise pretty much any build you can think of for a mounted character will be fine.

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Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:16 pm
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Noble
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The best I can come up with is something like this:
Dreadlord: General, SDC, HA, Lance, Cold One Chariot, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone and Cloak of Twillight.
18" General bubble, but you really have to make the charge. It might be more viable with a halberd.

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Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:14 pm
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If I were to put a character on a regular chariot it would be a master--chances are there would be much scarier things on the list for a cannon line to mess with if it was just a master (Dreadlord, SS, big combat block, Hydra, K-Beast, BSB, etc.). And I'd use the master to up my regular chariot limit from 3 to 4, say, or to make room in specials for non-chariots. I was doing this in the last edition, but I haven't tried a character on a chariot with the new book. Full mundane, but otherwise naked master(s) on chariot(s).


Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:06 pm
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Gerner wrote:
The best I can come up with is something like this:
Dreadlord: General, SDC, HA, Lance, Cold One Chariot, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone and Cloak of Twillight.
18" General bubble, but you really have to make the charge. It might be more viable with a halberd.


Although Chariot mounts follow the special rules for the ridden monsters passage, the extended Inspiring Presence range is only gained by being/being mounted on a large target, which the chariot isn't.

As for proposed builds, I would go for something that makes it more combat capable in subsequent rounds, reinforcing its role as infantry block support. Something like full mundane, Ogre Blade, Other Tricksters and Talisman.

For a monster hunting role you'd probably be better off using a Peggy for the much greater speed.

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Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:27 pm
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Crown of command and a1+AS rerolling is a good surprise anvil that will entice opponents to charge and trap them for a flank.


Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:26 am
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Shade
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marcopollo wrote:
Crown of command and a1+AS rerolling is a good surprise anvil that will entice opponents to charge and trap them for a flank.


Interesting. And if the chariot dies the crown of command comes in handy when joining a unit.


Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:18 am
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Warrior

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The CoCs work quite well with Cauldron WEs. Since the entire model has MP the cold ones get to re-roll to wound as well. With the Cauldron nearby that can translate to a good bit of damage even when you don't charge. Also, the Frenzy spell on the Cauldron synergizes well with anything riding a coldone since both rider and mount get the bonus attacks (if you are not casting it on your WEs). I find COCs to be quite useful especailly when dealing with chaff and supporting infantry.


Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:38 pm
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Adsvampire wrote:
The CoCs work quite well with Cauldron WEs. Since the entire model has MP the cold ones get to re-roll to wound as well. With the Cauldron nearby that can translate to a good bit of damage even when you don't charge. Also, the Frenzy spell on the Cauldron synergizes well with anything riding a coldone since both rider and mount get the bonus attacks (if you are not casting it on your WEs). I find COCs to be quite useful especailly when dealing with chaff and supporting infantry.



You are incorrect. Our book specifically says mounts do not benefit from MP.


Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:45 pm
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@ Gidean
You are the one who is incorrect if you read exactly what rules tell.
Sure, mounts do not benefit from MP. But the COB does not enhance MP, the COB rather enhances models which have MP.
The COC model has MP, therefore COB enhances the whole COC model (including the mounts and impact hits).
That's RAW (rules as written). It is quite likely to be a mistake, and many players would not want to use that rule.

As a summary, Adsvampire is correct in his reading of the rules. He plays RAW.

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Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:04 pm
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Calisson wrote:
@ Gidean
You are the one who is incorrect if you read exactly what rules tell.
Sure, mounts do not benefit from MP. But the COB does not enhance MP, the COB rather enhances models which have MP.
The COC model has MP, therefore COB enhances the whole COC model (including the mounts and impact hits).
That's RAW (rules as written). It is quite likely to be a mistake, and many players would not want to use that rule.

As a summary, Adsvampire is correct in his reading of the rules. He plays RAW.



Sorry...yes I forgot. :oops: This is how our bolt throwers get to re-roll all wounds when within 6 inches of the cauldron. Of course crowding them within 6 inches is a chore unto itself.


Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:22 pm
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