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US Masters List discussion 
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So The US Masters was this past weekend and the lists were posted here: http://www.raffazza.blogspot.co.uk/2014 ... chups.html Also the tournament results are here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... ring#gid=1.

I won't spoil it for those who don't know who the winner is, but I will say MID WEST REPRESENT! (I am from that region so yea!)


Did anyone here make it to the event? There were lots of dark elves present, and i was surprised to see a lot of avoidance lists. I was also surprised to see a lot of the cheap masters put on Cold Ones instead of dark steeds, which I assume was meant to get around the Swedish Comp rules that pulverize dark steed characters, but I am curious if anyone knows how it played out? Did the drawbacks of the cold ones hurt those players too much? A couple guys also took the blood wrack shrine which was interesting.

Thoughts?

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Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:20 pm
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Seeing these lists, I really get the feeling I know diddly squat about tournament gaming. I wouldn't know who to play with those lists even if they deployed it for me. I do think it's interesting to see so many Masters on Cold ones. I thought they were fantastic upgrades for any cold one unit. But none of them have any cold one unit at all. Which also tells a lot about the cold one knights.

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Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:53 pm
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They went (most, I think one list skipped it) for a warlock bus which I think is a faulty approach for an all comers as a single gunline can spoil your tournament.

As for cold ones, yes, they are in there to go around swedish comp (which only shows faults of the comp) and achieve their goal by leaving one fast cav unit and joining another one the same turn.

My reapers would love to face a unit where its entire rank is composed of characters with no ward saves!

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Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:06 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
They went (most, I think one list skipped it) for a warlock bus which I think is a faulty approach for an all comers as a single gunline can spoil your tournament.


My understanding is that these lists did ok. They got wins, but had trouble getting the big wins necessary to get to the top under a 20-0 scoring system.

Warlocks are awesome, but I think that the strength of the current army book is infantry -- specifically Executioners and Witch Elves. I probably would have gone Exec Horde myself.

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Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:20 pm
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My current twotowers list that I'm fiddling with scores around 8-10 in swedish so I would likely soften it up to be closer to 10. Swedish comp hits warlocks hard.

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Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:40 pm
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Lots of beast sorceresses....

Where did Corey put his cold one masters? In the Warlocks to make a bus?

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Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:16 pm
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I can ask the player who played him in round 2 but I suspect they were switching between fast cav units so that they didn't lose the fast cav benefit.

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Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:19 pm
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Daeron wrote:
Seeing these lists, I really get the feeling I know diddly squat about tournament gaming. I wouldn't know who to play with those lists even if they deployed it for me. I do think it's interesting to see so many Masters on Cold ones. I thought they were fantastic upgrades for any cold one unit. But none of them have any cold one unit at all. Which also tells a lot about the cold one knights.



I saw at least one list have a unit of 6. Don Gilliland really worked that system! Got a 17 comp but look at what is in his army and how does one combat that? :shock:


Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:25 pm
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Well, there are some very unorthodox lists in there.
Not sure I am a fan of a comp system that changes the 'normal' list you see, so significantly.
I will have to put my list through it, to see where I come out.

Really, very surprised to see so many Cold One Masters. Never really considered them as an option before.

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Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:05 pm
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Amboadine wrote:
Well, there are some very unorthodox lists in there.
Not sure I am a fan of a comp system that changes the 'normal' list you see, so significantly.
I will have to put my list through it, to see where I come out.

Really, very surprised to see so many Cold One Masters. Never really considered them as an option before.



You play Hop Scotch with them into the Fast Cav unit that is about to charge or be charged. Really unorthodox but I suppose it helps to maintain comp points. My buddy plays a WoC list similar to the one that got the .03 comp.


Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:10 pm
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OK, thanks, that explains the concept behind them, I might give it ago in a friendly at some point.

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Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:13 pm
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I played a very similar list to Alex in my last tournament (weekend just gone) and placed 2nd.

Lord on Steed
L4 Shadow
Master on Peg
4 Masters on Cold Ones
28 Spears
15 Dark Riders
5 Dark Riders
4 Bolters
5 Harpies
10 Warlocks

Scores an 11 under Swedish 1.11 - something that cost me 1st place - I missed out on 1st due to not have a softer score.

The Cold One masters are incredible.

Game 1 vs MSU Deamons - the Bus just killed unit after unit while the warlocks with Lord killed everything else - win 20-0

Game 2 vs Mixed Deamons with GUO - Peg Master ground out 3 Beasts while the bus smashed through the centre. The Warlocks killed unit after unit in combat, and at the end just the GUO was left. Had to use the Pegmaster turn 6 to redirect the GUO, but still won 20-0

Game 3 vs O&G. Lord and Locks killed all chariots/warmachines while doombolting stuff. Bus killed: Arachnarok, Orc Warboss, BSB and 30 Big Uns and some warmachines. Took a charge for the Orc unit with all the characters and without magic buffs was killing 15 Orcs a turn. W 19-1

If you know what you're doing, the Masters are not all in the front rank to start with.....


Ran the Cold one bus at Battlefield Birmingham 2 weekends ago and finished 3rd from 70ish players - the bus is brutal (only 2 characters in it), don't let the naysayers put you off. 3 of the top DE players in the UK are using cav based lists - Curry with Dark Rider/Warlock Bus, Tom Cowlin with a Cold One Bus and me either with a Cold One or Dark Rider bus

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:21 am
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Jal wrote:
I played a very similar list to Alex in my last tournament (weekend just gone) and placed 2nd.

Lord on Steed
L4 Shadow
Master on Peg
4 Masters on Cold Ones
28 Spears
15 Dark Riders
5 Dark Riders
4 Bolters
5 Harpies
10 Warlocks

Scores an 11 under Swedish 1.11 - something that cost me 1st place - I missed out on 1st due to not have a softer score.

The Cold One masters are incredible.

Game 1 vs MSU Deamons - the Bus just killed unit after unit while the warlocks with Lord killed everything else - win 20-0

Game 2 vs Mixed Deamons with GUO - Peg Master ground out 3 Beasts while the bus smashed through the centre. The Warlocks killed unit after unit in combat, and at the end just the GUO was left. Had to use the Pegmaster turn 6 to redirect the GUO, but still won 20-0

Game 3 vs O&G. Lord and Locks killed all chariots/warmachines while doombolting stuff. Bus killed: Arachnarok, Orc Warboss, BSB and 30 Big Uns and some warmachines. Took a charge for the Orc unit with all the characters and without magic buffs was killing 15 Orcs a turn. W 19-1

If you know what you're doing, the Masters are not all in the front rank to start with.....


Ran the Cold one bus at Battlefield Birmingham 2 weekends ago and finished 3rd from 70ish players - the bus is brutal (only 2 characters in it), don't let the naysayers put you off. 3 of the top DE players in the UK are using cav based lists - Curry with Dark Rider/Warlock Bus, Tom Cowlin with a Cold One Bus and me either with a Cold One or Dark Rider bus


Inspiring list. I assume all 4 CO masters go in the big dark rider unit (which would make it 7 wide if you want all 4 masters in the front rank), lord goes with warlocks. SS with the spear bunker, or do you mount her too? Have you tried lore of beasts or lore of darkness? My next tournament is with 2MD restrictions which does not allow more than 2 mounted characters, but next time I play an ETC list I have considered a CoK bus with multiple characters in it. But since the real punch come from the masters, a dark rider bus with said masters in it might be just as good, but cheaper and with more wounds. Definitely going to play with this thought, as I love the idea of a hypermobile army.

Would appreciate some detail about how you deploy, and how you attach the characters and move them about etc.

What magic items? Pegmaster with cloak of course. Lord with giants blade and some ward save (assume no OTS since it punishes the warlocks), and a BSB amongst the 4 CO masters, presumeably with a ward save and the remaining 3 with maybe a luckstone or something.

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:09 am
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Normally all characters deloyed in the DR bus - but threw the lord around a bit where needed.

Lord had Ogre Blade, Armour of Destny and OTS

PegMaster had 1+ rerollable, sword of might and a charmed shield. He was built to tie up beasts of Nurgle rather than war machine hunting. He often started in the Dark Riders too, then bailed out when needed.

DR bus was never more than 5 wide.

Full comamnd and 2 masters to start, then at least 2 masters make way at combat to make it 4 1+ save characters and either the Dreadlord or the champion.

Sorc was in the same unit, on beasts. I used the threat of Savage Beasts more than actually casting it - Wildform/Soulblight were more than enough

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BSB: Luckstone, potion of foolhardiness
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Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:18 am
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Brutal. Good call on the beast (you put L4 shadow in your first list :P ), with multiple characters is such a scary spell. Your BSB is vulnerable to death snipes with no real ward save? But I guess, if you give him much equipment, you cant afford the 4th master.

I will quite possibly test this list out for myself! I play in a meta with a lot of emphasis on armor saves, but with a lot of war machines though. Do you reckon CoT on the pegmaster might work better then?

Also, Ogre blade, AoD and OTS come out at 105 points. Do you maybe give him talisman of preservation? Hotek + scroll on the supreme?

I will be hard pressed fitting 5 masters in at 2400 points :p skipping shields on them all means I can take 2x 5 point magic items in total - that is, if I dont go with cloak on the pegmaster! ;) if I do, no way I can afford 5 masters total.

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:46 am
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Sorry, ring of hotek is in the bus too! on the L4

Y, it's talis of pres. Tbh, list is at home so this is from memory!

the most brutal thing was charging a Arachnarok with the 4 masters on the bus, soulblighting the Spider and taking it off before the Dark riders rolled dice....

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:12 am
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Jal wrote:
Sorry, ring of hotek is in the bus too! on the L4

Y, it's talis of pres. Tbh, list is at home so this is from memory!

the most brutal thing was charging a Arachnarok with the 4 masters on the bus, soulblighting the Spider and taking it off before the Dark riders rolled dice....


NP at all, I appreciate the info ^^ Im actually not at all surprised you took the spider out on the charge xD 12 S6 attacks will do that so most monsters! I will play around with the points a little bit. See what I can squeeze in. I have decided, you see, that the next comp tourney I play will be with a multiple masters bus :p

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:33 am
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I would have thought that DR masters would suit the fast cav pinball approach more than CO masters. The more single COs, the more stupidity tests you have to make!

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:36 am
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T.D. wrote:
I would have thought that DR masters would suit the fast cav pinball approach more than CO masters. The more single COs, the more stupidity tests you have to make!


But you dont ride the COs single, ever. If they are in the same unit in the satrt of your movement phase, you take a single stupidity check to see if the unit can act. Then they are free to do whatever. And yes, steed masters would be alot more versatile than CO masters, trouble is that most comp systems restrict the amount of characters on dark steeds that you are allowed to field.

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:54 am
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Quote:
You play Hop Scotch with them into the Fast Cav unit that is about to charge or be charged.


Fair enough about starting them in a single unit. But surely there will be a point in the game where you have to take multiple tests? Or do they all move as one, rather than going off on solo missions?

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:07 pm
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Thraundil wrote:
T.D. wrote:
I would have thought that DR masters would suit the fast cav pinball approach more than CO masters. The more single COs, the more stupidity tests you have to make!


But you dont ride the COs single, ever. If they are in the same unit in the satrt of your movement phase, you take a single stupidity check to see if the unit can act. Then they are free to do whatever. And yes, steed masters would be alot more versatile than CO masters, trouble is that most comp systems restrict the amount of characters on dark steeds that you are allowed to field.



In an ideal world, they'd all be on Steeds.

Doing so under Swedish comp hits you hard - and rightly so, the list is hard enough as is.

The nice thing about these little masters is if I need to redirect something and have nothing else to hand I can throw a 1+ save master who will do 3ish wounds (inc cold one) on most units to hold stuff up. Keep him within 12" of the BSB and more often than not, you don't even lose the points for him - he just indefinatly tanks stuff

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Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:23 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
They went (most, I think one list skipped it) for a warlock bus which I think is a faulty approach for an all comers as a single gunline can spoil your tournament.
My reapers would love to face a unit where its entire rank is composed of characters with no ward saves!


This forum surprises me that there is so little love or acceptance for this kind of list. The UK Masters, Italian Master were both won by these lists, and some very good placings at the US masters. This fast cav army of doom is an absolute superstar of a list. It utterly kicks ass (and I don't think is that fun to play against) and is sert to become a staple of the top 10 of GTs the world over.

And your repeaters will continue to hit RnF as there will be a command model in the front rank part from in combat. Rather than theory hammer, I can tell you having played against a few of these armies, they are very very tough.

Dyvim tvar wrote:
but I think that the strength of the current army book is infantry -- specifically Executioners and Witch Elves. I probably would have gone Exec Horde myself.


The infantry is good. But infantry aren't featuring highly in the current Meta. I would say this is the DE netlist, at least for now.

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:42 am
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Rasputinii wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
They went (most, I think one list skipped it) for a warlock bus which I think is a faulty approach for an all comers as a single gunline can spoil your tournament.
My reapers would love to face a unit where its entire rank is composed of characters with no ward saves!


This forum surprises me that there is so little love or acceptance for this kind of list. The UK Masters, Italian Master were both won by these lists, and some very good placings at the US masters. This fast cav army of doom is an absolute superstar of a list. It utterly kicks ass (and I don't think is that fun to play against) and is sert to become a staple of the top 10 of GTs the world over.

And your repeaters will continue to hit RnF as there will be a command model in the front rank part from in combat. Rather than theory hammer, I can tell you having played against a few of these armies, they are very very tough.

Dyvim tvar wrote:
but I think that the strength of the current army book is infantry -- specifically Executioners and Witch Elves. I probably would have gone Exec Horde myself.


The infantry is good. But infantry aren't featuring highly in the current Meta. I would say this is the DE netlist, at least for now.


See, I had a gut feeling this all cav list with lots of masters would catch on back when we started the thread when the book was just released. But being inexperienced at this play style I had a horrible time with it the first two games I tried it out. Then I tried a twin towers and ate some face so I sort of developed a bias. :roll: Every day I go to work I look up on my shelf in my garage and see the 9 unopened boxes of Dark Riders/Warlocks sitting there taunting me. !lol!

I think the recent tournament results speaks volumes for the concept. The fact that the master Dark Elf Players are taking it adds to that assessment.

@ Rasputinii

Do you see the bus more often being Dark Riders or Warlocks? Seems like Warlocks are more durable.


Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:50 am
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I didn't say they're not tough... They're just very meta specific.
Sure they excel against WoC (unless Slaanesh gets a couple spells through, then they're toast) and DoC, probably against ogres too.

But a gunline will shoot them apart in no time. I would like to see them face the new dwarfs. I played this kind of list in the past, every time I saw a gunline on the other side of the table it was as good as done for me barring crazy dice luck.

Infantry aren't featuring highly in the current meta... well, it's time to change that since our infantry is excellent.

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Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:55 am
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Dalamar wrote:
I didn't say they're not tough... They're just very meta specific.
Sure they excel against WoC (unless Slaanesh gets a couple spells through, then they're toast) and DoC, probably against ogres too.

But a gunline will shoot them apart in no time. I would like to see them face the new dwarfs. I played this kind of list in the past, every time I saw a gunline on the other side of the table it was as good as done for me barring crazy dice luck.

Infantry aren't featuring highly in the current meta... well, it's time to change that since our infantry is excellent.



Infantry based lists for most armies are free vps for most decent lists in the current UK meta.

I've faced 3 gunlines with a cav bus and beaten every single one. The idea is to block up lines of fire and concentrate your own damage to gain enough of an advantage with your own ranged output before forcing combat on your own terms. For example, facing a regular UK tournemanet goer (Ian Sturgess for those on the scene) wth a HE gunline (4 bolters, 40 archers, 15 sisters) plus reavers, eagles, a BOH Shadow AM and a Loremaster (Plus a BSB with BOTWD), simply deployed in the opposite corner from the SisterStar, and used my own shooting/Doombolts/PegMaster to wreck all 4 RBTs, thin the archers and remove the reavers before comitting my bus to within range of the sisters. Only had to weather 1 round of shooting before the bus could mop up the rest of the army.

Fighting gunlines with a fast cav army/cav bus army is exerting pressure in one spot until it cracks then pushing home your advantage. I've faced off the double hellblaster empire too - weight of fire to bring down the 4 crew on each (engineer) is simple enough, before comitting your more fragile troops to clear up bunkers/warmachines and mopping up the backlines

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Last edited by Jal on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:31 am
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