Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Zerbe
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Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by Zerbe »

Hello everyone,

Last weekend my friends convinced me to start playing warhammer again.
I decided to play dark elves and could need some help from more experienced players(since I haven't played for ages)

So far I bought 2 boxes darkshards and a sorceress.

My friends play WoC,HE,Dwarfs,OK,LM and O&G.
I want a balanced army which can do something in every phase (played WoC last weekend and was bored)

My first sketch was:

-SS: Level 4,scroll,4+ saving throw
-Death Hag: CoB
-Master:Pegasus,CoT,full mundane

Core:
-2x5 Dark Riders:Xbows,Shields
-20 Darkshards
-30 Witch Elves: FC,Razorbanner

Special:
-4 Reaper Bolt Thrower
-30 Black Guard: FC

Rare:
-2x5 Doomfire Warlocks

With this list my core would be above 25% and my friends told me I should always try to keep it at minimum.

So can you guys help me improving the list or give me some example of lists at 500/1500/2500 which are active in every phase of the game?

Shopping advice would also be appreciated , since I am not going to buy a full army. I want to buy everything step by step


Thanks in advance
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Dragon9
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Re: Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by Dragon9 »

I'd recommend Executioners over the Black Guard to start. Other than that, it's a decent list. However, I wouldn't pay attention to them about keeping core to a minimum. We're lucky in that we have no shortage of good choices, and that includes core. Witch Elves, Corsairs, and especially Dark Riders. Even Darkshards aren't shabby although you don't see them in every list.
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Urian tarkand
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Re: Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by Urian tarkand »

Nice setup!

thoughts:
- Some armies with cannons and only 1 cannon target (CoB). Maybe drop it for some more we and a bsb master on peg of steed, or foot in block BG/Execs. Or add more targets like a monster or shrine
- 2x5 warlocks is good. Before putting them together try it, maybe you find 3x5 DR and 1x5 WL is better (not enough dice to cast spells, but 3x channeling and 2x unit with 4++ is still good)
- We could make a core army and still be good ;-)
- BG are really too expensive pointwise. You get more execs bodies for the same points and those hit harder.

Good luck!
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Dalamar
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Re: Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by Dalamar »

Considering witch elves used to be a special choice at 1 point less, I don't consider them a core tax... they are a free unit!
We have some of the best core ij the game and unless you fill it with bleakswords or dreadspears, you can't go wrong with spending a bit more on core.
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Daeron
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Re: Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by Daeron »

I quite like the list as it is. Admitted, the Executioners tend to be favoured these days.. but there's some strengths to the Black Guards that are often forgotten when comparing them to executioners:
- They have more attacks, making them more destructive against the masses and better targets for magic-enhanced combat
- They are immune to psychology, making them "easy" and a top bunker for characters, if only for the deployment and turn 1.
- They are more 'resilient' because their two attacks means that even if they lose 50% of the models, they retain over 50% of their combat power. Their stubborn nature will keep them in the game when an enemy charges in with deep ranked fodder and a chariot.
- They are more flexible in terms of formation, thanks to stubborn
While point for point, they can't match the Executioners in raw damage, they do have some strengths worth noting.

I don't know which one is easiest to use. Executioners are far easier to damage with, but Black Guards won't run away so easily.


If you wish to keep the list as is, I would refine it like so:
- Make the Hag or the Master a Battle Standard Bearer
- Give the Master a lance. If the point permit it, you can also give him an RXB or handbow.
- You can drop 2 witch elves, to spare 22 points. With a Cauldron of Blood in the unit, they will still rank up to 4 ranks when you deploy the unit 10 models wide.
- The Darkshards could use shields and FC in such numbers. This isn't a must though.

Right now, your list would add to 2608 points, so a few changes are needed for a 2.5K list.

2500 points
- SS, scroll, 4++
- Master, Peg, Mundane armor, COT, Lance
- Death Hag, COB, BSB
-2x5 Dark Riders:Xbows,Shields
-18 Darkshards, shields, standard, musician
-28 Witch Elves: FC, Razorbanner
-4 Reaper Bolt Thrower
-30 Black Guard: FC
-5 Doomfire Warlocks
--- Which hits 2500 points exactly.
Alternatively, you could drop Darkshards to keep the Warlocks.

For smaller lists, it kind of depends on what you want. If you like the Witch Elves, you can take them as soon as 1000-ish points but for smaller games I'd recommend shooting power.

1200 points - Shooting gallery
285pts - Sorceress, level 4, 4++, Dark Steed, General
280pts - 20 Darkshards, Shields, Banner, Musician
100pts - 5 Dark Riders, RXBs, Shields
280pts - 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers
250pts - 2x5 Doomfire Warlocks

1200 points - Witch Elf fest
275pts - Hag, COB, GENERAL
383pts - 28 Witch Elves, FC, Razor standard
280pts - 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers
250pts - 2x5 Doomfire Warlocks
12 points left.


1200 points - Witch Elves and mobility
275pts - Hag, COB, GENERAL
306pts - 21 Witch Elves, FC, Razor standard
220pts - 2x5 Dark Riders, RXB, S, Mus
140pts - 2 Reaper Bolt Throwers
250pts - 2x5 Doomfire Warlocks
9 points left.

1500 points - Witch Elves
285pts - Sorceress, level 4, 4++, Dark Steed, General
300pts - Hag, COB, BSB
383pts - 28 Witch Elves, FC, Razor standard
280pts - 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers
250pts - 2x5 Doomfire Warlocks
2 points left


1500 points - Mobile Shooting!
285pts - Sorceress, level 4, 4++, Dark Steed, General
188pts - Master, Peg, Full armor, CoT, Lance, BSB
100pts - 5 Dark Riders, RXBs, Shields
100pts - 5 Dark Riders, RXBs, Shields
280pts - 20 Darkshards, Shields, Musician
280pts - 4 Reaper Bolt Throwers
125pts - 5 Doomfire Warlocks
125pts - 5 Doomfire Warlocks

You could also merge the two units of Warlocks here.
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Zerbe
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Re: Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by Zerbe »

Thanks for the advice so far.

I was a bit worried about the CoB as well , because it has a huge crosshair on it.
But the only cannons were the steamtank and a dwarven one (not sure if they are going to change their armies)

About the warlocks and DR , I was going to use magnets for the riders so that I can change them whenever I want.


Now that I have a rough idea of my 2,5k list, could you give me any suggestions what I should buy?
I guess we will be running a campaign again starting with 500 Points core only.

Army lists for 500/1000/1500/2000 would be nice so that I can see what I should buy and paint first, right now I think that I will get a box of DR and a master on foot / mount since I already started the pegasus conversion


Just saw your post Daeron , thanks for the lists !
Now I get some ideas what I can do at lower levels
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Re: Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by mathew_murder »

I'm a beginner myself and have been thinking about the order in which i should buy my units. I think most people would agree that some fast cavalry(one unit of 5 of each maybe?) would have to be next on your list because it is usually included in every army. then maybe a couple bolt throwers and another hq.

you may or may not find this useful but im planning on buying and painting a cold one dreadlord, a steed dreadlord(with the banner) and morathi at the same time then magnetizing the characters groins and saddles (adding a couple spare dark steeds from my chariot sets)
that way i have lots of options for how i want to mount my heroes and even more if i buy/convert more pegasi and cold ones.
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Re: Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by KiRaHyuU »

Maybe my response will not be the one that you will find most appealing or want to hear...but there is so much more to Dark Elves then just a list...i know people can tell you what units are good against what, what unit has statistically the most damage output, what is most reliable, what the current meta is blah blah blah...

None of this is really the entire game...

If your a beginner then what you need to be able to identify is what an army is and what are it's strengths and weaknesses, being also more attuned to thinking not just what you plan on doing but what your opponent has in mind...I know this all sounds quite silly and somewhat condescending if not trivial but this is always what i feel is missed...

Anyone here can tell you the best list but using it is another thing having the death star of witches or executioners is sure great, or having the Dark Rider spam with like the Warlock bus is also nice...but as a beginner well i wouldn't call u a beginner is to simply play more games and actually learn what your army actually does and what are it's innate weaknesses and how you can overcome them with either playing more aggressively or deploying terrain appropriately....

Playing Dark Elves is not like playing Warriors of Chaos or Orcs and Goblins...maybe Orcs and Goblins is a bad example but you do not simply line up your army and try to steam roll everything in your path until u reach the other side of the board...

Play more games and challenge yourself...!

There is nothing dead weight in the Dark Elf army book every unit has a specific role to play on the battlefield and i know most people could disagree and be like just mindrazor witches all day long...if you want to start Dark Elves and you want to play properly, i'd advise you to just get one of everything...

Taking the "DREAM LIST" is just a joke when have you gone to a tournament and seen everyone taking the same list...even the Dark Elves that played in the US Masters all took while a similarly themed list "ashamed to say that actually" but they were all different...

Play games make mistakes and just learn to play better is the best advice.
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Re: Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by Archamedius »

Also, if you are going to take some fast cavalry (dark riders and/or warlocks) make sure you go and look up the DRAICH documents here on these forums covering how to use fast cav. They will take you from thinking "wow these are kind of overpriced dark shards" to wow these are an integral tool in my army! Make sure you read and understand those strategies before you start playing with them.

It will make a world of difference.
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Re: Stranded in Naggaroth - Beginner Questions

Post by Askador »

KiRaHyuU wrote:Maybe my response will not be the one that you will find most appealing or want to hear...but there is so much more to Dark Elves then just a list...i know people can tell you what units are good against what, what unit has statistically the most damage output, what is most reliable, what the current meta is blah blah blah...

None of this is really the entire game...

If your a beginner then what you need to be able to identify is what an army is and what are it's strengths and weaknesses, being also more attuned to thinking not just what you plan on doing but what your opponent has in mind...I know this all sounds quite silly and somewhat condescending if not trivial but this is always what i feel is missed...

Anyone here can tell you the best list but using it is another thing having the death star of witches or executioners is sure great, or having the Dark Rider spam with like the Warlock bus is also nice...but as a beginner well i wouldn't call u a beginner is to simply play more games and actually learn what your army actually does and what are it's innate weaknesses and how you can overcome them with either playing more aggressively or deploying terrain appropriately....

Playing Dark Elves is not like playing Warriors of Chaos or Orcs and Goblins...maybe Orcs and Goblins is a bad example but you do not simply line up your army and try to steam roll everything in your path until u reach the other side of the board...

Play more games and challenge yourself...!

There is nothing dead weight in the Dark Elf army book every unit has a specific role to play on the battlefield and i know most people could disagree and be like just mindrazor witches all day long...if you want to start Dark Elves and you want to play properly, i'd advise you to just get one of everything...

Taking the "DREAM LIST" is just a joke when have you gone to a tournament and seen everyone taking the same list...even the Dark Elves that played in the US Masters all took while a similarly themed list "ashamed to say that actually" but they were all different...

Play games make mistakes and just learn to play better is the best advice.


Wile i agree with the most you say. You really CAN build a Darkelf Army and steamroll rverything in your path to the other side of the board. Did that with WoC and HEs already.

Thats the good thing on Darkelves. You are flexible. You can play an Avoidence list, heavy magic, heavy shooting, full Cav and heavy melee on foot and still win.

The Two towers list is a good exable for a steamroll list.
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