Reapers

[Dalamar]

How's everyone liking our new, cheaper reapers?

Funnily enough I have been reevaluating their purpose in my list.

I noticed that by turn 2, no later than turn 3, there is no target left on the table that I can shoot that doesn't have cover. This led me to frustrating games of:
Targer A is in combat
Target B has hard cover
Target C is behind another unit.

In the two towers list I have two behemoth units that need the empty field to advance without crashing the chariots on terrain. That means I need to deploy the reapers in a less efficient location.

They seem to be delegated to scaring flying stuff... But never really killing it, just keeping a small section of the board that has no cover free of fliers.

I have been thus considering replacing my high strength attacks with something else.

Either a scourgerunner, with the ability to drive around cover and fire (hitting on 5+ is twice as good as hitting on 6+ after all), or a Kharibdyss to support the towers.

I think my reapers will be retired for lists with smaller units, more defensive or avoidance types.

[Amboadine]

I have considered swapping a couple out for the S-runner too, however the cost of it just seems to be prohibitive. Not to mention a little too easy to kill off.
Certainly be interested to hear what others thoughts are on the matter.

[Dalamar]

S-runner singke shot hits mostly on 5+, which is literally the same odds as two reapers shooting at 6+ (assuming your opponent understands how cover works and uses it.
It is S7 instead of S6 with a potential if doing up to 4 wounds. It does not remove armor though (but S7 makes it very insignificant)

It can move, hence its not exposed to a single fast cav model making it through like reapers are.

In a pinch (I wouldn't advise it often though) it can charge chaff away. Even at S4, d6 impacts and 4 attacks (and then two horses) will scare away most chaff.

It is more fragile to shooting than a reaper but it does have double the wounds (so same as two reapers.)

[Gidean]

How's everyone liking our new, cheaper reapers?

Funnily enough I have been reevaluating their purpose in my list.

I noticed that by turn 2, no later than turn 3, there is no target left on the table that I can shoot that doesn't have cover. This led me to frustrating games of:
Targer A is in combat
Target B has hard cover
Target C is behind another unit.

In the two towers list I have two behemoth units that need the empty field to advance without crashing the chariots on terrain. That means I need to deploy the reapers in a less efficient location.

They seem to be delegated to scaring flying stuff... But never really killing it, just keeping a small section of the board that has no cover free of fliers.

I have been thus considering replacing my high strength attacks with something else.

Either a scourgerunner, with the ability to drive around cover and fire (hitting on 5+ is twice as good as hitting on 6+ after all), or a Kharibdyss to support the towers.

I think my reapers will be retired for lists with smaller units, more defensive or avoidance types.

Your points are all valid. But considering your list and your recent struggle to win the chaff war with KillerK I think Shades would better serve you. Kharibdyss are just crap. Nice models and they look good on paper but they are too damn slow. Way too easy to kill. No swiftstride and nominal armor save means a single Chaos Chariot will kill it on the charge 9 times out of 10. Or they will be shot to death. If you are only looking for Target saturation then maybe... They won't add anything to your current force. I won't use them except for friendly games where I have some idea what my friend will be bringing. The Scourgerunner is also crap when not taken as a mount for a Beastlord. It is going to miss in 4 of the 6 turns during a game. It is too easy to kill too. If the shades don't appeal to you consider a Cold One chariot to replace the 140 points of reapers.

[Dalamar]

Strangely I didn't see my game against KillerK as struggle. Just a typical game against MSU. He was on the back foot all game and then got the luck swing his side. It may have equally well swung my side... and reapers did really not much... while kbeast would draw sone fire and munch on his units with ease or s-runner countercharge his chaff (Since there were no real targets for the harpoon.

[Sihdhartha]

I've actually had many games where Reapers did almost nothing appreciable, I found that against my friends Orcs & Goblins or my other friends TK and/or Empire I wasn't even really using them much.

I was bringing them to deal with my friends HE and the Frostheart Phoenix, but he seems to usually roll a 6 on winds of magic and that thing is running around rocking a 4+ ward save.

I actually dropped them from my list for awhile, but I may contemplate putting them back in, I HAVE got to get rid of that phoenix.

[Thraundil]

In my opinion - if you have frenzied units, you NEED reapers, or you risk having your unit held in place or forced into a bad overrun by a single bat. Also, that same bat can stop your knights, or executioners, from getting the charge they need.

[Gerner]

If the s-runner could shoot six shots with strength four and ap the yes. I rarely use single shot on the reapers. They are more chaff clearer than high strength shooting.

[Kargan daemonclaw]

that relies on you being able to kill the chaff the turn before the single bat moves into position to block your frenzied unit. For chaff clearing like that you would be better with dark riders or shades that can charge the chaff to get rid of it allowing the frezied unit to move up in the movement pahse.

Reapers are great for turn 1-2 taking 10 models off the savage orc bigun horde so by the time the witches charge it the target does not have the bodies to absorb the casualties and still hit back with all their attacks.
They are also great for dealing with things like steam tanks, hell pits or mangler squigs that would otherwise make a bit of a mess of your infantry blocks.

Empire ICK knight units can also be thinned out with a volley of reaper fire.

I see reapers operating like this.
Turn 1-2 thin out the numbers of the target unit to soften it up for the infantry charge.
Turn 2-3 target enemy units that may be looking to flank your assault infantry block.

You can also consider advancing your assault blocks in echelon formation to allow more time for your reapers to focus fire and reduce enemy targets in sequence.

[Daeron]

Point for point, Shades can beat rbts, if they don't have any weapon upgrade. With the weapon upgrades, rbts beat them in shooting. If I were to replace my rbts with something in my two towers list, it would be shades:
- they can still kill most chaff by shooting
- they can get into cc to take out a warmachine
- they add a scouting phase to the deployment, which could prove vital to safeguard the vanguard. Actually, in terms of deployment, they ought to be an interesting pick.
But then there's their weakness.... T5 is a tough target where the rbt can do something about that and the Shades are easier targets for some weapons mostly due to range.
Still, I think they are an interesting support. Merely the fact that they can scout and later help in combo charging or chasing off a unit pulling tricks on your combat blocks is... Interesting.

I'm, unfortunately, no expert on them.

I stick with rbts for the moment. I find them easier, and more effective against T5 targets which seem to be threats for my infantry: chariots and gryos.

[Gidean]

Strangely I didn't see my game against KillerK as struggle. Just a typical game against MSU. He was on the back foot all game and then got the luck swing his side. It may have equally well swung my side... and reapers did really not much... while kbeast would draw sone fire and munch on his units with ease or s-runner countercharge his chaff (Since there were no real targets for the harpoon.

I admire your swagger but assuming he reported things without too much of a spin I would hardly describe him as being on the back foot. He cleared your chaff and redirectors on turn one and two and then pretty much lead you on a merry chase until HE was ready to pounce. He was not too adventurous and seemed to harvest the points he needed while martialing his loses with extreme precision. He had three reaper Bolt Throwers. How much did they contribute to the destruction of the Dark Riders? How effective would they have been against a slow moving Kharbidyss?

[Gerner]

On the whole Shades versus reapers.

Reapers have: 48 Range, S4, no minus for multiple, stationary, threat of strength 6 shot, high T against shoot + magic.
Shades have: BS5, 2-3 shots more, movement, skirmishers.

My reapers do a lot more damage through a game than my shades. The difference between S3 and S4 is big, imo.

[Gidean]

On the whole Shades versus reapers.

Reapers have: 48 Range, S4, no minus for multiple, stationary, threat of strength 6 shot, high T against shoot + magic.
Shades have: BS5, 2-3 shots more, movement, skirmishers.

My reapers do a lot more damage through a game than my shades. The difference between S3 and S4 is big, imo.

Yes but Dalamar's point is that he runs out of Reaper Targets by turn 3. I can see this. Combat is engaged and/or units are out of LOS or blocked LOS. I submit that shades (with weaker shooting) can have targets all 6 turns. And by targets I am also considering units they can charge.

[Dalamar]

I've shot myself in the foot enough times with shades charging a flank of some unit and giving away more CR than they gained (even against core troops) that my shades charge war machines and chaff... and stay away from real combat.

As for game with KillerK, yes, he was doing exactly what he needed to, and I knew exactly what he was doing because he had *no other choice* That is in my book being on the back foot. I made mistakes and didn't exploit the situation enough but that is a story for another thread. One or two more units able to charge his would've made a world of difference.

Yes, Steam Tanks would be something to be worried about, but in a real world you realize that steam tanks have low hull and can actually use infantry to gain hard cover thanks to their construction. 6+ to hit and 4+ to wound gives pretty crappy odds to be honest. And then the tank is in combat and I can't shoot at it at all. (and K-beast munches through its plates at a steady pace).

K-beast would give me a reasonable target saturation (although a Hydra could prove an annoyance to anything trying to kill it) although I would have to depend on magic to counter flying monsters (but a proper Word of Pain will make even dragonlords second guess their chances)

[Demetrius]

Reapers are fantastic, I was taking two at 100 points each, and I would never hesitate to take two or three at 70 each. They are great in the current meta against elves (Fast Cav, scouts and expensive T3 elites) and Warriors (high armoured and expensive models). They also give us an answer to Monstrous Cav. I find they aren't very effective against Demons, but my regular DOC opponents fear them and are always quick to take them out.

If your opponent's units are always in cover, then that is a good thing because you dictate their movement. Generally though, there is room for you to put reapers down that have good arcs of fire which will make the opponent either avoid the area or have to push through a zone without cover.

Finally, try taking 3-4 and bubbling Harmonic Convergence. I tried it the other day, and took off my friends Warriors at range very quickly

In terms of the Skyrunner. I would never take one, just because of their vulnerability from artillery fire. I can imagine every Skillcannon, Ironblaster or Stank going after it turn one for a free 150 points, to which the Skyrunner simply cannot return meaningful counter battery fire.

[Dalamar]

A cannon will need on average 2 shots to take down a scourgerunner... same as two bolt throwers. Only difference is when it comes to small arms fire where Reaper's T7 comes into play... and which scourgerunner can often just run away from.

[Jvh792]

I think reapers are our best anti flak that we have. Especially with how awesome our Witch Horde is. They HATE flak, and if you have enough bolt throwers, they never have to deal with it, because they all die, or spend the game hiding, and out of the witches way.

[Jvh792]

I hardly ever use them as monster killers.

[Dalamar]

Best place for chaff to hide from bolt throwers is right in front of the witches, using them for cover.

[Gidean]

Best place for chaff to hide from bolt throwers is right in front of the witches, using them for cover.

In front? I think you need to be behind to claim cover saves.

[Askador]

I have the same Problem as Dalamar with Reapers.

Once the Chaff is down they just stand around. Maybe im playing them wrong.
My Expierence with 4 Reapers on the field after turn 2.
All 4 shooting at a Lizardman Horde killing 5 models.. (The only Target i had)
All 4 shooting at a Frost Phoenix did nothing.
"" shooting at a Stegadon made 2 wounds wich he healed back a turn later.
Killing one Ogre with all shots.
Sometimes i have the feeling if i would send in a Witch alone she would do more then 4 Bolt Throwers

There is always something between them, woods, buildings, units and even if they have a free line of sight. 6 shots hitting on 4 and wounding on 4 (sometimes on 3 sometimes on 6) thats 1 or 2 wounds per Reaper without any cover.

I dont think that a Chariot shooting do much better then that. (Or even worse)
But i think shades perform much better.
And i love my Troll Slayer Darkshards. (they killed 9 Chaos Trolls alone with shooting and melee and got a flaming Banner with a Troll Head for that)

[Zenith]

Hi,

I usually field two Bolts.

If I see large targets, then I deploy mine back behind my own troopts.
They can shoot the large targets anyway, without penalties.

Here the strange part comes.
I do not expect them, to hit and kill stuff in the first round.
They usually kill later in the game. Wounding large targets, shooting the od flank, and killing flying troops, who get behind my line.

If there is no large target, then I deploy them closer to the frontline, and both on a flank. So the opponent is now forces to alter his deployment.

[T.D.]

Best place for chaff to hide from bolt throwers is right in front of the witches, using them for cover.

In front? I think you need to be behind to claim cover saves.

I think Dalamar means the enemy chaff parks in front of your Witches, which get in the way of your bolt thrower targeting them -- so your own Witches are giving the opposition chaff hard cover.

[Dalamar]

Depending ob positioning, large targets can often claim cover from bolt throweres too due to reaper's low profile.
Remember you check LoS from a firing point which on reapers is about chest high for infantry.

[Cold73]

I used the reapers as well for a time...but noticed the same thing as Dalamar.

Now i only use the Reapers when i plan to use a shooting dominated army ( i rarely do this)
Or when playing against Dwarves or Chaos Dwarves...these armies will rarely move much..allowing me to thin them out untill i reach their lines