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Best Choice Of Redirectors 
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Trainee Warrior

Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:28 pm
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I had a look to see if there was a thread devoted to redirectors and I couldn't find one so I started here. If there is one I'd appreciate a link to it :).

This weekend I played a game in which I had 2x 9 Cold One Knights vs Ogres (first game in 17 years of warhammer playing ogres!). He had 3x 21point saber tusks as redirectors. These basically won him the game. He was able to close with his blocks, place redirectors and subsequently charge my cavalry as they took out a 21point unit each. I obviously didn't have much shooting.

This got me thinking about what the best redirectors are for our army? High Elves and Wood Elves have eagles, most armies have something around 50 points and redirectors are a must-have with T3 units. Some people say harpies are still good, some naked dark riders, some scouts. Harpies are really expensive now and with Ld6 if they are charged by a monster, they tend to flee instantly... but they fly. Dark Riders occupy a solid amount of space with their 5-cav-base footprint and don't always fit but are fast and have solid leadership, especially if given a musician for rallying. Scouts don't have much movement (in comparison) but can obviously start in/near a building/forest and can shoot from turn 1 however this can leave them exposed.

Harpies used to be the obvious choice at 55pts a unit. Now they are 75 points. Every redirector unit we have is roughly the same price now so my question is, what is the most efficient redirector choice with the new book?

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Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:34 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Dark Riders are my choice.

As you note, the increased cost of Harpies makes them less attractive. For a pure role as redirectors, a naked unit of Dark Riders is significantly better. Since they are Fast Cavalry, they can flee to induce a failed charge and then move freely in your next turn to do it again. And if you need to sacrifice them, they are only 5 points more than the harpies.

I personally prefer to fully equip my Dark Riders with shields and crossbows, which increases the cost of sacrificing them, but they are then a very versatile unit that is very good at taking care of enemy redirectors (either by charging or shooting) to open things up for your main combat units.

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Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:51 pm
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I like to go for a mix of redirectors, as all our chaff give different battlefield options;

- want to bait and flee? Dark Riders

- want to set up a double flee? Dark Riders

- want to sacrifice? Harpies

- want to be able to move and charge over intervening troops and scenery? Harpies

- want to threaten castled warmachines? Harpies

- want to be able to kill other redirectors? Dark Riders

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Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:10 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Don't forget the Medusa ;)

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Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:25 pm
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Dalamar wrote:
Don't forget the Medusa ;)

I love them!

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Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:40 pm
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Miscast into the Warp
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Dalamar / Gerner. Are you finding they work best in pairs or is one enough? Very tempted to proxy for a couple of games.

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Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:58 pm
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Dragon Lord
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I haven't used more than one yet and I doubt I will anytime soon. The single medusa is a great counter to enemy chaff I've found. It may be frenzied at Ld2... but nobody will bother to try and redirect it with stuff that she can't kill... and she can kill pretty much anything that you'd normally use to redirect. In fact it is her job so by baiting the medusa with chaff - your opponent is helping you.

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Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:44 pm
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Noble

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Dark Riders with Shield and Musican is my Choice.

They are fast and have 4+ Armor. They won me alot Games since they are fast have Vanguard and can kill some stuff if i dont need them to redirect something.

I have no luck with Harpies. In Turn one i already have the Dark Riders in the Enemy Flanks ready to attack warmashines or weak units. The funny thing is.. in that turn the Harpies are slower and hard to find a position since they cant reach the flanks.

To kill other Chaff the Riders are better too. since they have Armor, Strike first and Murder thing..

If you want to flee they are better since they have a Musican and better Leadership.

There is not much that speaks for Harpies.

If i really want a Flying redirektor i can take a Master on Pegasus. Thats 120 points.. a bit more if i want to have AS 1+ :)


Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:59 pm
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Highborn

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Dark Riders all they way for me.
They are fast....feigned flight can leave a enemy charging unit not getting passed the half way point of the table even after 2 turns of charging....
and the RXB and shields on them...makes them very good at dealing with other chaff units while still doing their own.

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Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:30 am
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I pretty much stopped using harpies. For what they bring to the table; naked, T3, no elf special rules, low LD, causes panic in your own troops, they are just not worth it at 75 points. The new book increased their cost as if they have ASF and MP, but didnt give them ASF and MP. Before, they where neat as they could flee through your own troops without causing a panic check. Now? Not so much. The only, ONLY thing they have going for them is fly, which means they are alot easier to position if you use them solely for redirection. But in spite of being skirmishers, low strength missile just makes a bloody mess out of them with no save whatsoever.

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Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:38 am
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Thraundil wrote:
I pretty much stopped using harpies. For what they bring to the table; naked, T3, no elf special rules, low LD, causes panic in your own troops, they are just not worth it at 75 points. The new book increased their cost as if they have ASF and MP, but didnt give them ASF and MP. Before, they where neat as they could flee through your own troops without causing a panic check. Now? Not so much. The only, ONLY thing they have going for them is fly, which means they are alot easier to position if you use them solely for redirection. But in spite of being skirmishers, low strength missile just makes a bloody mess out of them with no save whatsoever.


Yeah thats very much the point. I fully Agree.


Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:05 am
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Trainee Warrior

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So what do you kit your dark riders out with? My normal build is RXB's + Shield (at such low points it's hard to pass up) and musician for 110 points. That's still expendable as far as elf units go but seems wasteful if their primary role is as redirectors and will die so your other units can get the charge. Is it better just to give them shield or go 'naked'?

Also, does anybody use scouts? I know there a times when they can be good but this seems situational.

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Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:57 am
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Highborn

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My Dark Riders are almost always equiped with RXB and Shields....
Musicians i only use in larger games...but more often then not i pass up on that upgrade (might be an oversight from my part)

Scouts....
When playing tournaments if often include at least one unit of those....
When playing against a specific army I only use scouts against Bretonnia, Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves.
For me the only reason to include scouts into my army is to force my opponent to deploy over the entire lenght of the table or having me start with one unit in their deployment zone.
Yes...they can hunt warmachines...but Dark Riders can do the same.

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Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:13 pm
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Dragon Lord
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Harpies are still awesome. That is all.

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Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:20 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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Dark Elves have so many choices for winning the maneuver battle it's almost sickening.

NOTE: all of these are minimal-size units. You don't want to spend anything more than you have to on something you might well have to sacrifice.

1) Harpies. No, they're not going to kill much, but they're cheap(ish) and fly. When you absolutely positively must delay that unit NOW harpies will get there.

2) Dark Riders. Not only are they fast cav, but with S4 charges they're pretty good at sweeping other chaff out of the way. Give them RXBs and they don't even have to charge to do it. And shields for a 4+ save is pretty solid for chaff.

3) Shades. Scouting means they start the game in blocking position, if you so choose. But it might be a better option to deploy them where they can use their BS of 5 to shoot up the enemy chaff. Remember, you don't have to outmaneuver the chaff or engage it in combat if you shot it dead first.

4) Lone Medusa. As has been pointed out, they will wreck any chaff they engage, and by being baited out of place they are actually helping you.

5) Warlocks. Okay, these guys are more expensive than the other choices by double and more. But 2 S4 attacks and a 4++ save makes these guys surprisingly hard in close combat, especially for fast cav! Two great spells to go with it is just icing on the cake!

6) Darkshards. These guys make a great broom for sweeping chaff away. 20 shots kills a sabertusk with ease, and softens up a larger chaff unit for Shades or Dark Riders to finish off. Because of their ranged striking power, this is the one 'chaff' unit you won't mind bringing at a larger size. Make it 20+ strong and give them shields and they become a backup close combat block.

7) Reaper Bolt Throwers. Use much like the Darkshards to sweep chaff away, just at much longer ranges.

8) Tirestrips. 10-wide Witches or Black Guard will do damage all out of proportion to their numbers. So use them as a close screen for a large infantry block. Black Guard works better on the flank due to stubborn. Witches work better in front, as again their frenzy works for you. And clearing the charge lane is dead simple, just throw the witches into your target the turn before you charge.

9) Handbow Corsairs. Use 10-wide again as portable cover - with their 4+ armor save they are surprisingly durable. And 20 Handbow shots again will do in most chaff. Down side is you probably want to get these guys out of the way before the ranges close too much.

10) Cold One Knights. They perform the same type of close-up chaff clearance as Dark Riders do... only they hit much harder (1-S6 and 2-S4 attacks) and are much more durable (2+save). You do sacrifice some maneuverability, so you generally leave them on the flanks... where they make great flank chargers as well, once the chaff battle is done and the real battles begin.

11) Cold One Chariots. Like the knights, they hit hard. They're a bit slower, but you make that up with two repeater crossbows.

12) Scourgerunner Chariots. Not the best choice, but they'll still take out chaff in combat. And the first time you take a bolt thrower shot down the width of a chaff unit and turn it into a shish-kebob it's worth it's points.

13) Monsters. Hydras and K-beasts will crush most chaff effortlessly. Flame template from the hydra can do it without even risking close combat.

There are endless opportunities for maneuver mischief playing Dark Elves. Use them ruthlessly, for that is our biggest advantage!


Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:30 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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I'm with Dalamar onthe harpies. Dark riders are awesome but happiest fly.

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Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:23 pm
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Noble

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Killerk wrote:
I'm with Dalamar onthe harpies. Dark riders are awesome but happiest fly.


Most of the time its not a big difference. Since the Dark Riders are light Cav. they can reform and fit though almost every little hole. The difference of Flying and Light Cav is only some " most of the time. Yes 5" can make a difference but geting shot from 10 bored Goblin Archers too :)


Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:46 pm
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Askador wrote:
Killerk wrote:
I'm with Dalamar onthe harpies. Dark riders are awesome but happiest fly.


Most of the time its not a big difference. Since the Dark Riders are light Cav. they can reform and fit though almost every little hole. The difference of Flying and Light Cav is only some " most of the time. Yes 5" can make a difference but geting shot from 10 bored Goblin Archers too :)


I think most people use harpies like they were fast cav. They move them up and then they die.
What harpies are very good at, infact what really sets them apart from dark riders, is you can keep them behind your lines. They can sit behind you infantry, out of range of MM and shooting, and then in turns 3-4 when you absolutely need to redirect that unit away, BAM, the harpies leapfrog over your block and straight into the face of your opponents unit. I uses two units of harpies, 3 pumbagor and some raiders in my Beast army. You might say it has a lot of chaff. But despite being the fastest, the harpies are the unit I hold back. They are my mid game re-directors. The only go upfront when I abosultely have to take out warmachines, and then I put all 5 units of chaff up, so some will make it. Harpies are amazing, but I really believe the key to their use, is holding them back. That fly over your main line in T3 is exceptional.

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Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:38 am
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also keep in mind that on paper thair difference in movement is only 2". In reality happiest fly in a strait line, while the riders have to zigzag between units hampering their movement even further.

But we don't have to choose between the two so just have both. I know I always do.

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Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:00 am
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Killerk wrote:
also keep in mind that on paper thair difference in movement is only 2". In reality happiest fly in a strait line, while the riders have to zigzag between units hampering their movement even further.
Especially keeping 1" all time from any unit or building. It increases the zig zag and disallows to pass through narrow spaces.

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Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:32 am
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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Yep. Many times it's best to deploy harpies late - if not last - so they can go behind your main blocks and not give your opponent an early clue as to where those main blocks will go. The harpies then stay just behind the blocks, and only pop forward at the crucial moment.

Of course, if you're good with your placements, you can drop them first once or twice to establish that you're going to put your blocks in front of them. Then the third game you deploy the harpies somewhere else and decoy your opponent into thinking your main blocks will go there when you fully intend to put them somewhere else. :twisted:

And harpies 20" straight line move means they'll likely be in their usual position right behind your blocks after their first move anyway. 8) For added fun, you can play the same sort of shenanigans with a Dark Peggy character... although DP characters are usually much more valuable hunting warmachines and threatening the rear of the enemy's blocks than simply playing chaff sacrifice.

(DOH! How could I have forgotten DP characters in my analysis of DE chaff! :oops: )

Likewise, nothing says fast cav has to vanguard straight ahead. Sometimes it's MUCH more useful for them to fall back and move laterally across the field... perhaps to back up those blocks you deployed 3" apart specifically so a fast cav unit could sneak through at a crucial moment...


Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:42 am
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Trainee Warrior

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I'm warming to harpies :). I played a game where the terror mask was on a goblin boss on a wolf and it wreaked havok by being so cheap, easily accessible and highly maneuverable. How does the harpies low leadership affect things? It may be the case they decide not to take a stegadon in the face and flee, leaving your main blocks open for redirecting. Is their 20" straight line movement hampered by the fact that they need to be in range of the General or BSB?

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Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:09 pm
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Malekith's Personal Guard

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Well, if the enemy unit is close enough that it can redirect into a combat block, odds are your general and/or BSB is within range of the blocking position you're putting the harpies into...


Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:08 am
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Malekith's Best Friend
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Also if you want to stall a terror causingwith something that has 6 ld, then go for double flee.

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Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:22 am
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"pumbagor"

That took me a second. Cute.


Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:22 pm
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