Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:37 pm



Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Who's playing proper MSU? 
Author Message
M-A-D
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 5178
Location: Melbourne Oz
Along time a go this forum created something that's now common tongue amongst warhamer players and online communities. This creation (along with the 6th ed revision) marks this forum out as being just so much more awesome than any other forum. It has forever changed warhammer. This thing is MSU. MelakithAU's thread Can't beat the hordes - try this...the birth of MSU is it.

The meta in 8th has gone very much MSU themed. Daemons are doing the MSU thing very well, undoubtedly due to horrors freeing up character points. But delfs can do the same, warlocks mean you just don't need that L4. So despite the fact that MSU is popular right now, nearly every Delf list is about hordes or deathstars.

So my questions is, is anyone out there playing proper MSU Dark Elves. And if so what are you running and how is it working out for you?

_________________
Pleased to be back


Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:51 am
Profile WWW
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9664
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Ahh, a post from 2003 and 6th edition... the only way to compete back then.

KillerK runs an MSU list.

For me, MSU in 8th edition is not even remotely close to MSU before 8th. Step up rule really hurts the little units, to the point that I don't mind having my witch elves completely surrounded and charged from all sides... more kills for me!

Not to say that it doesn't work as KillerK aptly demonstrated with a narrow win against my list, but it's just very, very fragile and many things can go wrong. One failed rally test can spiral the entire tactic out of balance and towards doom.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:32 am
Profile
Miscast into the Warp
Miscast into the Warp
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:07 am
Posts: 3510
Location: Investigating Mantica
I am currently running a flying circus / MSU list.
Four Peg Riders. SS. Dark Riders, warlocks, harpies, shades, shards, WE and Executioners.
As Dalamar has already stated, fairly fragile and not as good as it used to be. But I have a pretty good win ratio with it still.
I have to agree that this is a great forum and without the aforementioned thread and those similar, I would be nowherr close to the player I am today. The depth of knowledge and tactically advice here is second to none.

_________________
My Kings of War Plog - Forces of Nature

My Kings of War Plog - Twilight Kin / Nightstalkers


Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:58 am
Profile
Online
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8575
Location: Hag Graef
See who posted in Good MSU links

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:00 am
Profile
Killed by Khorne
Killed by Khorne
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:51 pm
Posts: 2800
Location: Hinterlands of Khuresh; The Lost City of the Angels
Ah, Rasputinii!

Thanks so much for this. Despite my activity on this forum, my archaeology had not yet discovered that classic piece!

Will look forward to reading it later.

If 9 Cold One Kinghts + Hero count as MSU, then my major cavalry lists so far are MSU.

Would love to try out infantry-based MSU, but the learning curve is much steeper!

_________________
OldHammer Advanced Ruleset
- Adding Tactical Depth to Your Favourite Tabletop Wargame


Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:28 am
Profile
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9664
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
Your MSU is about 4 knights too big T.D. ;) that's almost a whole new unit!

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:13 pm
Profile
Killed by Khorne
Killed by Khorne
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:51 pm
Posts: 2800
Location: Hinterlands of Khuresh; The Lost City of the Angels
MME/MSU hybrid then :mrgreen:

Reading over that thread has given me some ideas with Knights; experimenting with 2x5 rather than 1x10.

With 1x10 the back ranks are limited in attacks, whereas with 2x5 you can crash both units into the enemy and maximise kills rather than the potential +1 for ranks.

Downside is double the stupidity tests and dilution of magic standard benefits.

Regardless, that thread is a goldmine and I'm enjoying mining it :D

_________________
OldHammer Advanced Ruleset
- Adding Tactical Depth to Your Favourite Tabletop Wargame


Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:00 pm
Profile
Warrior

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:07 am
Posts: 74
I've been playing a more MSU oriented list of late. The last game I had was 2000 points (3v3 12,000 total) and I played the following:

Dreadlord on Peg with Cloak of Twilight, Dawnstone and Dragonhelm

2x5 Dark Riders with RXB's and Shields with Musicians

10 Darkshards with a musician
12 Darkshards with a musician

7 Cold One Knights with Standard (Standard of Discipline) and Champion
10 Executioners
10 Blackguard
2 Reaper Bolt Throwers
Cold One Chariot
Hydra w/Flaming Breath

2x5 Warlocks

I really enjoyed playing the list. It's super mobile. I can threaten in all the phases. I has hard hitters and chaff. And those 22 Shards took down a Nurgle Marked Chaos Giant in the first turn. :)

I've been thinking about changing some things up in the list. I can drop the Dreadlord and one Cold One Knight to put in a Supreme Sorceress with the Book of Ashur and Talisman of Endurance. I love the idea of running her with Lore of Heavens with my RBT's and Shards. I've also written a variant with three pegasus combat characters (drop the hydra and ten man squads of Execs and BG, but it does get me one more Cold One Chariot after all the points are shaved and redistributed).


Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:30 pm
Profile
M-A-D
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 5178
Location: Melbourne Oz
I can see why MSU isn't as popular as it used to be. Step up attacks and not getting half points for units are the main reasons in my mind. But I think it must be viable. Although I can concede that it may be dependent on running multiple masters to get the punch and resilience. I'm looking at testing out this in some UB games to see if classical Druchii MSU could be effective:

Sorceress: Dispel Scroll; Level 2 Wizard. 140
Master: Dark Steed; Heavy Armour; Lance; Repeater Crossbow; Sea Dragon Cloak. 99
Master: Dark Steed; Heavy Armour; Lance; Repeater Crossbow; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer. 130

10 Witch Elves: Musician. 120
10 Witch Elves: Musician. 120
5 Dark Riders: Musician; Standard Bearer; Shield; Repeater Crossbows. 120
5 Dark Riders: Musician; Standard Bearer; Shield; Repeater Crossbows. 120
5 Dark Riders: Musician; Shield; Repeater Crossbows. 110

5 Harpies 75
5 Shades 80
10 Black Guard of Naggarond: Standard Bearer; Musician. 170
Cold One Chariot 115
Cold One Chariot 115
Cold One Chariot 115
Reaver Bolt Thrower 70
Reaver Bolt Thrower 70
Reaver Bolt Thrower 70
5 Cold One Knights: Standard Bearer. 160
5 Cold One Knights: Standard Bearer. 160

5 Doomfire Warlocks 125
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125
Bloodwrack Medusa 90

2,499 points
19 units
17 deployment slots
Nothing over 170 pts


Does it lack grindg power? Yes. Does it lack ways to kill big flyers short of lucky RBT fire? Yes. But it intrigues me. It's full of redundancy and force multipliers, the two things that's de MSU work 10 years a go.

_________________
Pleased to be back


Last edited by Rasputinii on Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:35 am
Profile WWW
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Posts: 9664
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons
There's a big issue I see with this list... and by big I mean BIG

All of the witch elves, the BG and anything with a Cold One can't flee from a charge.
Fleeing charges is a key aspect of an MSU list, essential to set up favorable charges of your own.
You will have to depend on your fast cavalry to perform that role but they can't be everywhere.

_________________
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16


Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:39 am
Profile
M-A-D
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 5178
Location: Melbourne Oz
I wrote a piece along time a go about why fleeing isn't all that. I stand by it. Fast cav are good at fleeing, but that's it. Too many dice. Much better the certainty of death. My main army these days is beastmen. I have more chaff than this army. I almost never flee a charge. Too much panic, chance of being caught, not rallying, blocking charges. I like to take charges and go down swinging.

_________________
Pleased to be back


Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:45 am
Profile WWW
Executioner

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:49 am
Posts: 173
DoC have the same problem yet they can deal with it so I would say that yes, fleeing is good to have as an option but it is not mandatory. What is more, from my own experience, unless it is fast cavalry that can rally and get back to action next turn it is at best double edge sword and often simply costs you the game. I prefer not to flee and if I have to it usually means I have made a mistake.

I would be concerned with 3 rbt and their clear line of sight with so many units. I had a game with fewer regiments and 4 bolt throwers. I either blocked them or moved too slow or both. I would not take more than 2 if you have so many regiments present. Especially that you can't always count on having a hill in your deployment zone.

Who is your general in the army? The Master? What magic does level 2 take?

I like the core troops selection a lot. I am not sure about the special though, I do miss executioners :) But at the same time it is way different than what KillerK has and that is an advantage in itself because while it is MSU in principle it will play completely differently. And that is great in itself!

Any chances for a report with that army?

Cheers!

_________________
Image


Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:54 am
Profile
Trademaster
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 7:32 pm
Posts: 3170
Location: Ontario, Canada
Hey Ras, long time no see! :)
Accidentally clicked submit early.

I wondered this myself, but I think the game has changed so much that it rewards and encourages large units so I'm not sure if MSU is even "viable". Might depend on your meta pool. That is a good link, thanks for posting that Cal/SoH. I gave it a quick skim, and will read over it in full.

I used to love playing my army that way, but it's really evolved over the last few editions so I'm reluctant to try it again.. especially against a beefy and blasty OK army. :/

_________________
Trading Forum


Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:48 am
Profile ICQ WWW
Shade

Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:39 pm
Posts: 112
I have found that witch elf units of 10-12 don't get charged as much because people are scared to death of them. What I do like about them as well is that taking a few deaths from shooting doesn't phase them. That's one of the things that bugs me when I play DoC and Undead. If a WoC player has a unit of 5-6 dogs and you just kill 2 half the time that unit runs off. With witches they have to kill the entire unit, probably at least 2-3 rounds of fire from a 10 man shooty unit, before they cease to still be a usable redirector. On Black guard on the other hand it sucks losing them because they are much more expensive but I generally hold them back if in a small unit of 10-12 and use them to hold up something for a few rounds if they can't outright kill it. Execs can also do their job in a smaller unit but suffer much more from shooting this way so they need to be somewhat protected. I also wouldn;t count out corsairs in small units do to the option of handbows and decent armor. A unit of 10 on each flank can do well against chaff, scouts and fast cav.


Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:20 pm
Profile
Trainee Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 42
I had some good games with the following units:

10 Corsairs RHB, muso
10 Corsairs RHB, muso
10 Witches, muso
10 Witches, muso
5 Dark Riders, shields, RxBs, muso
5 Dark Riders, shields, RxBs, muso
10 Execs, Champ
10 Execs, Champ
5 Cold One Riders, muso
5 Cold One Riders, muso
10 Shades, 2 Hw
5 Shades
5 Warlocks

I'm missing some shooting in here, but clearing chaff is done by Shades and Riders. It worked fine in most games, I found nothing these units can't handle.

I use to take the Pegmaster and a Level 4 (Death or Dark).


Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:52 pm
Profile
Noble

Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:48 pm
Posts: 466
AemKei81 wrote:
I had some good games with the following units:

10 Corsairs RHB, muso
10 Corsairs RHB, muso
10 Witches, muso
10 Witches, muso
5 Dark Riders, shields, RxBs, muso
5 Dark Riders, shields, RxBs, muso
10 Execs, Champ
10 Execs, Champ
5 Cold One Riders, muso
5 Cold One Riders, muso
10 Shades, 2 Hw
5 Shades
5 Warlocks

I'm missing some shooting in here, but clearing chaff is done by Shades and Riders. It worked fine in most games, I found nothing these units can't handle.

I use to take the Pegmaster and a Level 4 (Death or Dark).


I have no idea how peoples can make Corsairs useful. How do you play them?
I did try them as MSU, normal unit, horde, with Handweapons and handbow.
The good thing is the enemys ignoring them. The bad thing is they do nothing in my games. They have alot of hit by shooting and in melee but do almost no wounds and no kills. Mine never win a fight and have a hard time dealing with some Chaff.
In one game i was so happy that 10 of them made it to kill an Orge Cat in combatround 3.


Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:34 am
Profile
Assassin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:44 pm
Posts: 570
Location: The thin edge of the wedge
Askador wrote:

I have no idea how peoples can make Corsairs useful. How do you play them?
I did try them as MSU, normal unit, horde, with Handweapons and handbow.
The good thing is the enemys ignoring them. The bad thing is they do nothing in my games. They have alot of hit by shooting and in melee but do almost no wounds and no kills. Mine never win a fight and have a hard time dealing with some Chaff.
In one game i was so happy that 10 of them made it to kill an Orge Cat in combatround 3.


I think your regular opponents will have an impact on the viability of corsairs. If you play alot of WoC (or anything with alot of armor) then corsairs will struggle. But against softer armies, they will perform better. It is one thing to shoot and then stand and shoot chaos warriors with RHB corsairs, but completely different if your targets are say, demonettes.

Last night I had 4 rounds of shooting with 16 RXB dark riders into chaos warriors. I think I made 3 or 4 wounds total.


Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:06 pm
Profile
Miscast into the Warp
Miscast into the Warp
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:07 am
Posts: 3510
Location: Investigating Mantica
10 Corsairs deployed in one rank, make a nice shielding unit.
Don't expect them to do much, but their save gives them a chance to slow the enemy advance. As mentioned the opponents list does effect their viability, but don't completely write them off.

_________________
My Kings of War Plog - Forces of Nature

My Kings of War Plog - Twilight Kin / Nightstalkers


Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:32 pm
Profile
Warrior
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 4:04 pm
Posts: 60
I've been playing msu chaos and dark elves all throughout this edition and have had good results. Really enjoy the challenge of playing the concept. As long as you have a clear idea of what you want each unit to do you can get a lot out of each unit. You just have to understand your match ups and know when you can push for big wins and when to play a raiding style of game and get the little win. I play alot of tournaments so some are based on 20-0, some just based on the win, lose, draw. So my list is designed for those kind of environments.


Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:47 pm
Profile
Aspiring Brush Master
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:19 pm
Posts: 680
Location: In my Armory, protecting my Weed.
mmh.. I play Semi MSU I suppose, practicly all my units are at there base size except for my Corsairs block which generally counts in at 30 big with my BSB inside. My regular opponent plays alot of Empire and VC so generaly im faced with huge blocks of steadfast or horded units and i just need 1 solid block that can commit to that.

_________________
PLOG - The House of Corvus
Image

Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
WS:5 S:3 T:3 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Long sword; Falchion (family heirloom), Very Good Sabre, Short sword, Dagger, Throwing Dagger (4) SeaDragon Cloak, Chain
Inventory: 30 gold (214 still to be paid), Silver Bracelet, several flagons: 1x Strength potion, 3x Courage potion, 3x Healing Potion.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Acrobatics, Basic Stealth


Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:11 am
Profile
Night Goblin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:31 pm
Posts: 1169
Location: Falun, Sweden
Rasputinii wrote:
I can see why MSU isn't as popular as it used to be. Step up attacks and not getting half points for units are the main reasons in my mind. But I think it must be viable. Although I can concede that it may be dependent on running multiple masters to get the punch and resilience. I'm looking at testing out this in some UB games to see if classical Druchii MSU could be effective:

Sorceress: Dispel Scroll; Level 2 Wizard. 140
Master: Dark Steed; Heavy Armour; Lance; Repeater Crossbow; Sea Dragon Cloak. 99
Master: Dark Steed; Heavy Armour; Lance; Repeater Crossbow; Sea Dragon Cloak; Shield; Battle Standard Bearer. 130

10 Witch Elves: Musician. 120
10 Witch Elves: Musician. 120
5 Dark Riders: Musician; Standard Bearer; Shield; Repeater Crossbows. 120
5 Dark Riders: Musician; Standard Bearer; Shield; Repeater Crossbows. 120
5 Dark Riders: Musician; Shield; Repeater Crossbows. 110

5 Harpies 75
5 Shades 80
10 Black Guard of Naggarond: Standard Bearer; Musician. 170
Cold One Chariot 115
Cold One Chariot 115
Cold One Chariot 115
Reaver Bolt Thrower 70
Reaver Bolt Thrower 70
Reaver Bolt Thrower 70
5 Cold One Knights: Standard Bearer. 160
5 Cold One Knights: Standard Bearer. 160

5 Doomfire Warlocks 125
5 Doomfire Warlocks 125
Bloodwrack Medusa 90

2,499 points
19 units
17 deployment slots
Nothing over 170 pts


Does it lack grindg power? Yes. Does it lack ways to kill big flyers short of lucky RBT fire? Yes. But it intrigues me. It's full of redundancy and force multipliers, the two things that's de MSU work 10 years a go.

my main worry with this list is that you only have 3 units that can break ranks (and as such take away standfast)

_________________
SWFBR- Swedish Warhammer Tournament Calendar, Ranking and Forum


Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:04 am
Profile
Aspiring Brush Master
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:19 pm
Posts: 680
Location: In my Armory, protecting my Weed.
I dont see the Problem. I generaly only have 1 unit that can realy break ranks and im using all my other units to widdle away the rest.
Aint that what MSU is all about?

_________________
PLOG - The House of Corvus
Image

Group 41- Name: Searinox Nagharha - Shade
WS:5 S:3 T:3 D:4 I:4
Equipment: Long sword; Falchion (family heirloom), Very Good Sabre, Short sword, Dagger, Throwing Dagger (4) SeaDragon Cloak, Chain
Inventory: 30 gold (214 still to be paid), Silver Bracelet, several flagons: 1x Strength potion, 3x Courage potion, 3x Healing Potion.
Skills: Two Weapon Fighting, Acrobatics, Basic Stealth


Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:47 pm
Profile
Miscast into the Warp
Miscast into the Warp
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:07 am
Posts: 3510
Location: Investigating Mantica
Agreed, with that many units you should be able to pull off combo charges into the flanks and rear.

_________________
My Kings of War Plog - Forces of Nature

My Kings of War Plog - Twilight Kin / Nightstalkers


Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:05 pm
Profile
Night Goblin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:31 pm
Posts: 1169
Location: Falun, Sweden
Searinox Nagharha wrote:
I dont see the Problem. I generaly only have 1 unit that can realy break ranks and im using all my other units to widdle away the rest.
Aint that what MSU is all about?

one of the key components of the original msu was its ability to win the game in the movement phase, that you could put static cr in your favor before you rolled any dice during the combat phase, this would not be possible with Rasputinii's list since he have as many units that can break ranks and standfast as the normal number of big combat blocks that most ppl seam to take these days

_________________
SWFBR- Swedish Warhammer Tournament Calendar, Ranking and Forum


Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:12 pm
Profile
Highborn

Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:04 pm
Posts: 638
Ive been running MSU for a long time now. My next outing with MSU Dark Elves is at Call to War in the UK which is this weekend as has over 90 players I believe at the moment.

The tournament is using the ETC draft so a few things are comped but I don’t mind that.

The rules pack: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/640 ... ack_V1.pdf

The Army Comp:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/640 ... y_Comp.pdf

Lists are open so no harm in posting mine here.

Supreme Sorceress - 260
Level 3; Lore of Beasts; Dark Steed
Dispel Scroll; Obsidian Amulet

High Beastmaster - 330
Manticore (Iron Hard Skin)
Dragonhelm

Master - 165
Battle Standard; Dark Steed; Heavy Armour; Sea Dragon Cloak
Ogre Blade; Charmed Shield; Dragonbane Gem

5 Dark Riders - 110
Musician; Shields; Repeater Crossbows

5 Dark Riders - 110
Musician; Shields; Repeater Crossbows

10 Darkshards - 140
Musician; Shields

10 Darkshards- 140
Musician; Shields

10 Witch Elves - 120
Musician

Cold One Chariot - 115

Cold One Chariot - 115

Cold One Chariot - 115

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70

Reaper Bolt Thrower - 70

War Hydra - 180
Fiery Breath

5 Harpies - 75

5 Doomfire Warlocks - 125

Kharibdyss - 160

Total - 2,400 points


As soon as I saw they had infinitely high hills and buildings I banged a high beastmaster and 2 monsters in the list. Ive also seen chariots creeping back into Dark Elf lists so I threw 3 of them in to further utilise the ability to hide units and for some target saturation for my monsters.

I don’t think you can compare 8th ed MSU to the MSU incarnation of 6th ed but the principles of the army and the play style are still the same and getting combo charges off is great to see. Its been difficult for me to win big but if the armies played right you can get a win and it’s an enjoyable game as well.

I hope to post up some feedback of how the list does at the event.

I’ll drop the list in the Army List section as to not clutter this thread up if people want to comment or ask questions.


Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:33 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software