What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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ZT Strike
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What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by ZT Strike »

So with the master race now having all of its armylists updated I was wondering what you all thought? Personally:
Likes:
1) Love ASF (its why I got Asur in 7th.)
2) T3 with all elves (gives us a uniform weakness.)
3) Beasts and Magic are the support rather than the core of our armies.
Dis-likes:
1) S4 Elves (regardless of leaders or units, I think we should have the same treatment as toughness here, S3 with all elves. (I can give expanded reasoning if following does not give stronger enough point.))
2) Standard WS5, BS4. (So we live for nearly an eon at average and we are as skilled with our weapons as human leaders? I truely think that we should trade S4 models for a standard WS6,BS5. That a big deal? Yes! However I think elves should be more reliant on WS and BS than S and T.
3) Weird Initiatives. (Why do some elves have I5 and some I6? Asur got mainly I5 while Druchii got mainly I6. Personally I am surprised we are not a standard 6.)
-ZT Strike
Sea Guard of Eataine - Asur
Bleaksword of Naggarond - Druchii
Glade Guard of Athel Loren - Asrai
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Thraundil
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Thraundil »

Like your points overall, except your S point. Who has S4? Lords and heroes, and executioners and knights. I honestly have no issue with lords and heroes having S4, because they are meant to be superior in every way to standard infantry. As for the elites of the elites; wielding a massive two-hander takes strength. Taming a motherfucking raptor takes strength. If cold one knights had S3... Just no.
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Dark reaper
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Dark reaper »

Cold One Knights and Executioners had s3 in 6th. They were both not very good.
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Dalamar
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Dalamar »

Nothing was very good in 6th :P
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Dark reaper
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Dark reaper »

Dalamar wrote:Nothing was very good in 6th :P


Indeed.
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Gidean
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Gidean »

He're what I think of 8th Edition Elves.

We are all glass cannons. With Dark Elves being the best followed VERY closely by the High Elves and Wood Elves bringing up the rear.

We have the most versatile book. High Elves have the best item in the game...two really. Wood Elves...I'm not sure what they have that is supreme other than magic spell flexibility. They might dominate magic phase like the old Slann use to do.
Last edited by Gidean on Sun May 04, 2014 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
ZT Strike
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by ZT Strike »

Nice to de-rail this thread so quick. I would like to see Exc and Cold One Knights have 2 Attacks or higher Weapon Skill instead of Strength 4. Big Raptors or not, the things are as stupid as a box of rocks.
-ZT Strike
Sea Guard of Eataine - Asur
Bleaksword of Naggarond - Druchii
Glade Guard of Athel Loren - Asrai
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Haagrum
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Haagrum »

Overall, I think Ward got the balance between the Elven races more or less correct. His books are slightly more open to player abuse than others, but I think that was to be expected. Each of the races has their own flavour and failings, although I suspect that his personal history with the Wood Elves caused him to inject a few more blatant a***-pulls in relation to lore. Having read the explanation, I still think that their access to Dark Magic is the stand-out example, but if that's the worst thing I have to say about the new release, it must be pretty decent overall.

I was also very impressed that all three books have multiple viable playing styles for this edition. I think that we Druchii got a pretty brilliant deal on that front, although there are some units which won't see a lot of play and will likely get a retuning in future editions to increase the competitive tensions within the army list.

The consistency with ASF makes a lot of sense, since all Elves are descended from the same lineage (I referred to the Speed of Asuryan rule as "Troke's Colossal Blunder of Biology"). There are very few Elves with a basic S4 (other than characters) who don't also have great weapons - Cold One Knights and Wild Riders are the only ones that immediately come to mind, and Wild Riders are a special case in any event.

I don't think that we need a better WS. Elves don't spend 100% of their greatly-extended lifespan practising swordplay. The ones who dedicate more of their time for training tend to have WS5 or better (e.g. Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard, Black Guard, Sisters of Slaughter).

Similarly, I see no issues with the divergent Initiative values between Elves. Phoenix Guard, Dragon Princes, Witches, Sisters of Slaughter, Black Guard and Cold One Knights have I6 because they fight naked or spend most of their time drilling and practising with their weapons (or both) - it makes sense that this is the case. In any event, ASF models strike simultaneously and rerolls are granted for equal Initiative or better, so it only creates an issue where one side also has ASL.

ZT Strike wrote:I would like to see Exc and Cold One Knights have 2 Attacks or higher Weapon Skill instead of Strength 4. Big Raptors or not, the things are as stupid as a box of rocks.

Stupid and wilful.

If you've got a properly-broken horse as your steed, S3 is no issue. If you have a barely-tamed predatory pocket dinosaur or a half-feral lion to control, on the other hand...
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lil' fisty
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by lil' fisty »

I like the balance between them. Dark elves have the best variety though, that's a no-brainer. All BRB lores plus Dark and High magic is nice as an all around strategic bonus.

....Who has the best SPEARMEN?!?!! hahaha
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Amboadine »

lil' fisty wrote:I like the balance between them. Dark elves have the best variety though, that's a no-brainer. All BRB lores plus Dark and High magic is nice as an all around strategic bonus.

....Who has the best SPEARMEN?!?!! hahaha


Probably the Wood elves now...
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Gidean »

lil' fisty wrote:I like the balance between them. Dark elves have the best variety though, that's a no-brainer. All BRB lores plus Dark and High magic is nice as an all around strategic bonus.

....Who has the best SPEARMEN?!?!! hahaha



I think Eternal Guard for 3 extra points. Stubborn 9 and the potential both our prowess and High Elf prowess makes them the best. Oh and AP spears.
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Watchmaster
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Watchmaster »

The only thing that bothers me about our otherwise fantastic book is access to Life and Light magic, particularly Life. Every argument I've heard to try and thematically justify their inclusion sounds progressively more desperate and insubstantial. "A Dark Elf wouldn't deny herself access to ANY source of power!" is my favorite so far. You really think a self respecting Druchii sorceress would acknowledge something fundamentally rooted in compassion and communion with the natural world as a source of power in the first place?

The worst of it is that Life immediately became the most used lore in tournaments around here, to the exclusion of even Shadow and Dark. I get it; it wins games and everyone likes to win, but c'mon. We don't need it, the Druchii wouldn't deign to use it, and neither will I. /end rant.

Wood Elves... man I don't know. I think they phoned it in on that book. They do Dark Elf stuff AAAAND High Elf stuff... While they're in a forest!!! Isn't that clever, and more importantly, a lot easier than trying to play test and balance a new racial trait? High Magic AND Dark Magic- Beats the heck out of reworking the Lore of Athel Loren! Obligatory great weapon troop, check! Fast cavalry unit that counts as a level 2 mage sold well for the DE, throw that in too!

I'm sure the book will play fine in the right hands, but the lack of creative effort kind of bleeds off the page.
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Askador »

Watchmaster wrote:The only thing that bothers me about our otherwise fantastic book is access to Life and Light magic, particularly Life. Every argument I've heard to try and thematically justify their inclusion sounds progressively more desperate and insubstantial. "A Dark Elf wouldn't deny herself access to ANY source of power!" is my favorite so far. You really think a self respecting Druchii sorceress would acknowledge something fundamentally rooted in compassion and communion with the natural world as a source of power in the first place?

The worst of it is that Life immediately became the most used lore in tournaments around here, to the exclusion of even Shadow and Dark. I get it; it wins games and everyone likes to win, but c'mon. We don't need it, the Druchii wouldn't deign to use it, and neither will I. /end rant.

Wood Elves... man I don't know. I think they phoned it in on that book. They do Dark Elf stuff AAAAND High Elf stuff... While they're in a forest!!! Isn't that clever, and more importantly, a lot easier than trying to play test and balance a new racial trait? High Magic AND Dark Magic- Beats the heck out of reworking the Lore of Athel Loren! Obligatory great weapon troop, check! Fast cavalry unit that counts as a level 2 mage sold well for the DE, throw that in too!

I'm sure the book will play fine in the right hands, but the lack of creative effort kind of bleeds off the page.


Storywise Life is fine for Darkelves.
Just handle it like the Drow from AD&D. If you can heal someone it means you can make the Torture endless. Have a Prisoner Torture him near dead, heal him and start again.

Magic lores are not good or evil after all they are just tools. It depends how you use such tools. You can destroy for the Good and heal for the Evil. Not a big deal for me.
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Cold73 »

The only thing that bothers me about our otherwise fantastic book is access to Life and Light magic, particularly Life. Every argument I've heard to try and thematically justify their inclusion sounds progressively more desperate and insubstantial. "A Dark Elf wouldn't deny herself access to ANY source of power!" is my favorite so far. You really think a self respecting Druchii sorceress would acknowledge something fundamentally rooted in compassion and communion with the natural world as a source of power in the first place?


Wait did I just read you correctly....Life...as a source of Compassion and Communion .... I must be seeing something wrong here.
Dwellers Below is one of the most destructive spells there is.
That magic missile that grows stronger if your opponent is in the woods (iaw you FORCE nature to do your work)
Then there is that Throne of Vines...a spell that basically makes the earth suffer for the power you can not control yourself.

The only 2 benevolent things in the lore are healing and regeneration.


The way I see it, there must have been a few sorceresses with the Lore of Life who really felt Malakith had been slighted when he lost the throne.
Do you really think they would loose access to things they already knew? If they were unable to coerce nature in doing that /.....well we will force it to do our bidding...we have been doing the same with all the other elements.
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Watchmaster »

I think I'm probably getting all of that from the descriptions of the lore in the last few main rulebooks.

It's not that Life magic isn't destructive, because nature is. It's not that it wouldn't be a useful tool. It's that it doesn't fit the theme in the slightest. Dwellers doesn't change the fact that the lore is basically all about- heck, I'll just quote from the book:
"primarily a defensive lore" "bring forth the full bloom of renewal" "Its wholesome energies can reinvigorate and heal" "Charm of rebirth" "renew and strengthen his connection with the living world" "infuses his fallen friends with fresh life"

Does this sound like something the Dark Elves would even see as an advantage? The fallen fell because they are weak, and the Druchii are stronger without them. Connection with the living world? Shall we next throw ourselves into the slave pits to deepen our bond with the chattel?

Cold73 wrote:The way I see it, there must have been a few sorceresses with the Lore of Life who really felt Malakith had been slighted when he lost the throne.
Do you really think they would loose access to things they already knew?

Yes, I do, just like they turned away from High Magic.

Life magic conveniently patches the few defining weaknesses of a DE army, so of course folks want to use it. And sure, with enough spin doctoring, we can make its availability even start to make a kind of sense- but then, we can do that for everyone else.

Why not give Chaos sorcerers Life? They are dominating the natural world with the power of their will, and enslaving the souls of the fallen to make them rise again! Ogres get Life too, since their primal existence has put them in touch with nature, and regaining wounds represents the butcher devouring spiritual energy to nourish the tribe. Nurgle Daemons, anyone? Great circle of life and decay? O&G sprout up everywhere from spores, and this is the perfect way to represent that!

I hope my vitriol doesn't come off as antagonistic in the slightest, but Dark Elves and Life Magic go together just about as well as Blood Angels and Necrons. Oh, wait...
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Dalamar
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Dalamar »

We should give demons life, life fits tzeentch a million times better than metal.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Haagrum »

Watchmaster wrote:I think I'm probably getting all of that from the descriptions of the lore in the last few main rulebooks.

It's not that Life magic isn't destructive, because nature is. It's not that it wouldn't be a useful tool. It's that it doesn't fit the theme in the slightest. Dwellers doesn't change the fact that the lore is basically all about- heck, I'll just quote from the book:
"primarily a defensive lore" "bring forth the full bloom of renewal" "Its wholesome energies can reinvigorate and heal" "Charm of rebirth" "renew and strengthen his connection with the living world" "infuses his fallen friends with fresh life"

Does this sound like something the Dark Elves would even see as an advantage? The fallen fell because they are weak, and the Druchii are stronger without them. Connection with the living world? Shall we next throw ourselves into the slave pits to deepen our bond with the chattel?


Each to their own. From a battlefield perspective, if you're T3, naked and terrible at fighting, it makes sense (and is entirely in your own interests) to keep the minions fighting for longer so that you won't need to do it. Similarly, most Druchii commanders tend to lose the habit of fighting on the front lines (well, if Lokhir's lore entry means anything, at least) - anything that'll boost the lackeys so that you don't have to sully your hands with the lesser races will be valuable to a Dreadlord... a source of wealth and influence which would hardly have gone unnoticed by the Convent of Ghrond. Sure, being able to blow stuff up is great, but on an extended raiding campaign, you need to keep your troops alive long enough to get home laden with loot and fresh slaves.

Thematically, it makes sense from the perspective that Dark Magic is the unrefined fusion of all eight Winds of Magic, and it would be hard to force them all together to power your spells if you had no way to control one or two of them. Sure, they might be looked down upon, but no-one in Naggaroth throws away a potential advantage. With all the daemonic summonings and other infernal pacts that Sorceresses strike to increase their power, a working knowledge of Light Magic would be essential as well in the interests of self-protection.

Watchmaster wrote:I hope my vitriol doesn't come off as antagonistic in the slightest, but Dark Elves and Life Magic go together just about as well as Blood Angels and Necrons. Oh, wait...


Just like Wood Elves and Dark Magic...
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Re: What do you think of 8th Ed Elves

Post by Eternal Malekith »

I think the cold one knights lost it's tutch.
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