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2500 -- I hate Swedish Comp ... 
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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I've mostly been playing my Lizards lately but am feeling the urge to play Dark Elves more. I put together a 2500 list last night based on models I have that I thought would be competitive. Definitely a hard list, but I don't think it's super-powered:

Supreme Sorceress, Level 4, Lore of Shadow, Sac Dagger, Ironcurse Icon

Master, Cloak of Twilight, full armor, lance, Dark Pegasus
Master, BSB, full armor, lance, Dawnstone, Potion of Strength, Cold One

20 Darkshards, full command, Standard of Discipline
18 Witch Elves, standard, Banner of Eternal Flame
5 Dark Riders, musician, shield, crossbows
5 Dark Riders, musician, shield, crossbows
5 Dark Riders, musician, shield, crossbows

30 Executioners, full command, Gleaming Pennant
7 Cold One Knights, full command, Banner of Swiftness
Reaper Bolt Thrower
Reaper Bolt Thrower

5 Doomfire Warlocks
5 Doomfire Warlocks

Since it seems Swede Comp is becoming more popular for various purposes including for some events here locally, I checked the Swede Comp score. Comes in under zero at -1.5.

Huge hits to the comp for the 2 units of Warlocks (-73), Supreme Sorceress (-71) and Execs (-41). Yes, these are powerful choices, but seem disproportionately comped under the Swede system to stuff in other armies. Last night I fought a 2500 Warriors of Chaos army using Lizards that really made me wish I was playing my Dark Elves. I think his Warriors list was pretty similar in power level to the one I have above, but his comped at just over 10.

Once again, I hate Swede Comp.

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Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:46 pm
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Well, you have the pretty typical netlist so its no wonder it comps badly. Still, there are some changes to the list that will make a massive difference.

1. A level 4 (especially with some of the better lores) is not worth it under swedish. You´ll get more mileage from having 2 level 2´s with a scroll. Sacrificial dagger...so not worth it.
Your option: -71
My suggestion: -30
Comp saved: 41

2. Warlocks, especially 2 units is plain suicide under this comp system (and pretty much any other aswell :P ). Drop one of them and go for a unit of 8 or a unit of 6.
Your option: -73
My suggestion: -34 (or -24 if a unit of 6)
Comp saved: 39 (or 49)

3. Dark riders. One unit of 10 and one unit of 5 would save you some comp. You could even go 9+5 since and add a few darkshards since you can have 3 more for no increase in comp penalty.
You option: -25
My suggestion: -18
Comp saved: 7

4. Executioners. Why not go for a unit of 27? Saves some of comp. You could have another cold one knight without additional penalty.
Your option: -41
My suggestion: -34
Comp saved: 7

That would add up to 94 (or 104) comp points saved with those changes. You might need to redo the lord/hero section a bit, but it may well be worth it. In this comp system you can rarely just take a list a put it through the system, you need to build around the system :) Best of luck to you with your listbuilding :)


Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:22 pm
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I agree that comp rules suck. My suggestion is to vote with your feet, and don't attend. If people see attendance suffer, they will change their stance.

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Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:38 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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I agree that there are a lot of tweaks I could make to save comp points. But that just highlights one of the things I don't like about the system. It adds another layer of calculation that needs to be "gamed."

And aside from that, the comp hits just aren't proportional to power level. They punish popularity rather than effectiveness. Should 2 units of 5 Warlocks really have the same comp hit as 6 Nurgle-marked chaos chariots? I personally don't think so.

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Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:39 pm
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Dragon Lord
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That's what I have always been saying Dyvim :P

At buckeye my club had a comp 14+ warriors player (best warriors) with a level 4 fully kitted out slaanesh demon prince.
And the us master had comp above 11 with his ridiculously tough high elf list... But it doesn't have phoenixes so it's cool.

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Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:54 pm
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If warlocks and executioners arent good, why does everybody have them in their lists? They are awesome units and comp as such :) What I´ve found is that if you leave the warlocks out, you can have almost everything else. Still, the local meta will decide a lot what people bring, especially with this comp pack. Also, there are so many variants of lists that there is always a hole somewhere that can be abused. Been seeing a lot of flamers (DoC) and shadow warriors (HE) over here lately. Take units that comps less and bring in the filth with the rest! Dreadlords and fast cav will be punished even harder in the next update, at least that is how the discussions over here in Sweden goes right now. Still, its not a comp pack for everyone :)


Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:24 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Yes they are very good. My issue is that there are powerful units in other armies that get off very light. Gorebeast Chariots and Nurgle-marked Chaos Warriors are a couple that come to mind immediately. The more exposure I have to the system the more it just seems really arbitrary and I don't think it does a good job fixing balance issues.

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Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:30 pm
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Mikael.k wrote:
Still, its not a comp pack for everyone :)


Unfortunately (for you, and any other person involved in writing the comp pack) as the comp gets more and more spread out and used at more and more tournaments, you have to start writing it more and more for everyone and not just the local Swedish scene.

Either that or include a disclaimer that "This comp pack is written with the Swedish tournament scene in mind, based on popularity of particular choices in each army and has little to do with actual power of those choices because we can't predict the strength of what we don't experience in our games."

High elf list with two lords, big block of phoenix guard and a medium sized unit of sisters of avelorn with handmaiden should no way be above 10 comp. T3 4++ cavalry models that eat power dice for breakfast should not be comped more than some armies heavy cavalry.

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Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:40 pm
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I like how swed comp works, saying you can take 1-2 crazy combos, but not all them. On the other hand some of the numbers are just silly(tzeench daemons comped almost as hard as nurgle?! Witches and hags have very low comp compared to other units in DE, only +8 for no wizards?!)


Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:01 am
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I really enjoy the variation that Swedish offers. After several uncomped tournaments in a row it becomes tiresome and grating. I find variety to be the key in maintaining a successful gaming environment.


Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:27 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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I hate to say it, but if I had to choose, I would prefer a an ETC-style comp system. I don't think the Swede Comp system is very accurate with respect to the various numerical penalties it tries to impose, and I think it's a nearly impossible job to get it right. If you want some form of comp restriction, I think it's better to just identify certain specific combos or choices in each army that may be problematic and restrict players from taking too many of them.

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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:50 pm
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Morewar wrote:
I like how swed comp works, saying you can take 1-2 crazy combos, but not all them.


If that's the goal, I think it's better just to have a comp system that actually says "you can take 1-2 crazy combos, but not all them." That's what ETC does explicitly, which I think is better than layering a second complex and inaccurate point system over the existing point system. Also, take a look at the "Scotcomp" system used for the Scottish Masters. Similar to ETC but an overall lighter hand. Discussed here:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=125233

Mikael.k wrote:
Dreadlords and fast cav will be punished even harder in the next update, at least that is how the discussions over here in Sweden goes right now.


Sounds great ... not.

First they comp away the Dark Elf magic and shooting phases, and now they are looking at nailing movement and combat characters. Keep going and the only Dark Elf armies to comp above a 5 will be unsupported corsairs and spearmen.

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Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:58 pm
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I disagree almost entirely.

I love Swedish (and comp in general). It makes me write different lists.

Swedish is an entirely different meta. You can't (usually) just take your standard list and apply scores to it. You build a list to the comp.

Eg I took a 'hard' 8 to my last Swedish tournament (4 bolters, l4 heavens, 28 witches, COB) and came 5th (should have won it but played badly in my last game)

Will be taking a 13 to my next (Dragon Lord, 10*Cold Ones, 2*Lev2, 1 Lev1), knowing I won't be facing too many cannons, or much that can stand up to the Dragon.

Whilst I agree that there are some fairly strange 'lines drawn in the sand' with regard to fast cav, you have to remember that this comp is created in Europe where the style of play is very much currently shooty/avoidance then combo charge turns 5+6 for the win. Nurgle Warriors don't get comped that hard as they walk around with m4 not doing anything against most decent players in Europe. The comp may not be suited to the US/other meta.

I have done c40 tournaments in the last 3 years, all with a variety of comp/light/hard comp. The constantly having to adjust my list between tournaments is what keeps it fresh. I'm known in the UK for my Cold One Bus (Double Dreadlord etc) and have run it in a variety of comps with subtle changes depending on the exact restrictions.

Instead of looking at comp as 'oh, it takes away some of my toys' take a look at 'what can I build within the comp itself?'. Some armies will always get hit harder than other depending on the writer of the comp. Dark Elves, whether people like it or not are a top tier tournament army and should be comped in a comped environment or every top table list starts with a minimum 4 Bolt Thrower and 10 Warlocks then filler for flavor. You end up with 'the netlist'. Swedish is great in that respect - netlists are still possible, but less often seen. You see plenty of 'outside of the box' choices

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Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:20 pm
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Jal wrote:
I disagree almost entirely.

I love Swedish (and comp in general). It makes me write different lists.

Swedish is an entirely different meta. You can't (usually) just take your standard list and apply scores to it. You build a list to the comp.


I agree with this whole heartedly.


Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:52 pm
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Lord of the Dragon Caves
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Jal wrote:
I love Swedish (and comp in general). It makes me write different lists.

Swedish is an entirely different meta. You can't (usually) just take your standard list and apply scores to it. You build a list to the comp


I understand that. But it doesn't mean I like it.

Jal wrote:
Whilst I agree that there are some fairly strange 'lines drawn in the sand' with regard to fast cav, you have to remember that this comp is created in Europe where the style of play is very much currently shooty/avoidance then combo charge turns 5+6 for the win.


That style of play is not unique to Europe.

Jal wrote:
Nurgle Warriors don't get comped that hard as they walk around with m4 not doing anything against most decent players in Europe. The comp may not be suited to the US/other meta.


Here in the US there is something called the Banner of Swiftness. Makes that unit as fast as Elf infantry. Also, even if they don't see combat, they are points denial, particularly when backed by Shadow magic. Miasma and/or Enfeebling foe make these guys super hard to move.

Jal wrote:
Some armies will always get hit harder than other depending on the writer of the comp. Dark Elves, whether people like it or not are a top tier tournament army ...


Not saying I disagree. But they are comped harder under Swedish than other "top tier" armies. Warriors and Daemons seem to get off very light in comparison.

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Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:15 pm
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Jal wrote:
Dark Elves, whether people like it or not are a top tier tournament army and should be comped in a comped environment or every top table list starts with a minimum 4 Bolt Thrower and 10 Warlocks then filler for flavor.


Oh my goodness, that's a poor start to an army. My regular opponents (HE and WoC) would not even break a sweat.

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Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:14 am
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@Dalamar....something tells me that Jal plays WoC himself. ;-)
The 4 Bolt Throwers are the only thing that can kill a Daemon Prince before he wrecks havoc among our lines...and the Warlocks can tie up a Nurgle Chariot for a round..maybe 2....
..That simply means that WoC players would need to think about placing and moving their forces... and if you wanted to play Warhammer and think about tactics at the same time...you would never want to play WoC to begin with.

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Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:03 am
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I know, tactics are hard.

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Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:25 pm
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@Jal,
Reading my previous post it almost sounded like I'm attacking you....
I'm sorry...that was not meant that way.

Lets just say that we disagree about the swedish comp. But we do however agree about other comp systems.
For most other systems I kinda like it...since it will often make sure you won't face the strongest combinations out there.

Swedish comp however...for me that is....forces me to calculate and recalculate everything.
Since I earn my living by crunching numbers so to speak I don;t really like having to do that for a hobby as well.

Furthermore i've the feeling the swedish comp favours WoC more then other armies....

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Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:19 pm
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Would you guys mind posting this all conquering WoC list? Or a similary effective build around comp 10 :) The reason I ask is a) im a WoC player myself and b) WoC have been struggling on the swedish tournaments scene, even when played by some very competent players :) I may be overlooking something.

Quote:
Unfortunately (for you, and any other person involved in writing the comp pack) as the comp gets more and more spread out and used at more and more tournaments, you have to start writing it more and more for everyone and not just the local Swedish scene.


I´m not part of the group that writes the comp pack, I provide feedback and that is something anybody can do. You´re a competent player Dalamar, and any insight you may have about the comp pack could be very valuable. I´m sure you are more than welcome to the swedish battle ranking forums with your thoughts. Usually the authors want people to post example lists and point out the things they feel are comped wrong.

Quote:
Either that or include a disclaimer that "This comp pack is written with the Swedish tournament scene in mind, based on popularity of particular choices in each army and has little to do with actual power of those choices because we can't predict the strength of what we don't experience in our games."


In my experience, popular choices are powerful choices. This is by no means unique to swedish comp. But it is different in the way that it forces people to take more "soft" choices than most comp packs. Many ETC lists would get pretty low scores (with some exceptions). Also, not all tournament players are hardcore and in it to win, so one may see some whacky builds. Even the really good players find use for units that are usually considered sup-par choices.

Quote:
High elf list with two lords, big block of phoenix guard and a medium sized unit of sisters of avelorn with handmaiden should no way be above 10 comp. T3 4++ cavalry models that eat power dice for breakfast should not be comped more than some armies heavy cavalry.


That high elf build is indeed poweful, and phoenix guard will most likely be hit harder with coming updates. As for warlocks, I think that they are worth far more than most heavy cavalry. One can easily six-dice two powerful spells with almost no risk. They are very mobile and are very good in combat. Of course they can be dealt with (thats why I´vee started to bring the third bolter, gladly taking the comp hit for it), but it is a very good unit none the less. Another benefit is that its dirt cheap for what it does, so what if they die, 125pts is nothing. Opponents will most likely need far more points to actually kill them.


Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:07 pm
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Cold73 wrote:
Furthermore i've the feeling the swedish comp favours WoC more then other armies....


Agreed. I've played against high Swede comp WoC armies that are still very tough.

Here's a prime example of why Swede Comp is totally screwed up:

Dark Elf Dreadlord on Cold One with Sea Dragon Cloak, Ogre Blade, Armor of Fortune and Dawnstone = 273 points and -23 Swede Comp

Chaos Lord on Juggernaut with shield, Ogre Blade, Armor of Fortune, Dawnstone and Mark of Khorne = 380 points and -13 Swede Comp

The Chaos Lord hits harder (no ASF re-rolls but 2 more attacks at higher Strength) and his mount hits harder. He's harder to kill at T5 instead of T3. He has one point lower Leadership but he's also not Stupid. He costs more points than the Dreadlord and is definitely worth it in game terms -- yet he causes a comp hit of only about half that of the Dreadlord.

I think both models are probably pointed about right in game terms, and so the comp issue is actually worse because the Dreadlord is cheaper than the Chaos Lord. The Dark Elf player will also be taking a comp penalty for whatever he/she gets with the 100-point difference between the 2 models. I think this is a general problem with WoC under the Swede Comp system. In the abstract, the comp penalties for WoC may seem high, but they aren't high in proportion to the actual points cost of the models. As a result, by the time a WoC player has used up his or her full points allotment, the Swede comp penalty usually isn't actually all that bad.

Why do Dark Elves take a comp hit for the Ogre Blade and WoC do not when the Ogre Blade is just as effective in the hands of a Chaos character?
Why do Dark Elves take a greater hit for the Dawnstone than WoC do?
Makes no sense whatsoever.

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Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:49 pm
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@Dyvim

I'm aware of the banner of swiftness, shock horror but it doesn't change the fact that if you play well with an avoidance list even m5 infantry isn't going to do very much.

Avoidance lists are played all the world over, but in the UK scene at the moment they make up 7-8 of the top 10-12 places at tournaments. I'd go as far as saying they are more common than push lists now. From speaking to some of the Scandinavian ETC players, the Scandinavian scene is very similar to UK.

@Cold
I won't take things personally - this is an internet forum and written words always come out harsher than actually intended! I agree, Swedish is lighter on WOC, but that's that nature of pretty much all comps - they rarely make all armies equal, more change where the bar is. And yes, although I've sold them now, I played WOC to a fairly high standard (3 podiums or top 10s last year in 90+ player tournaments in the UK)

@Dalmar
I don't know if I can be bothered really - 4 bolters and 10 Warlocks (in 2 5s normally) are outstanding and pointing out that two armies aren't too afraid of this combo is ignoring the rest to an almost facile level. Dark Elves are probably the best army in the game at effective board space control with bolters and Warlocks being a massive part of this. The usual netlist we see in the UK currently is something along the lines of:

Dreadlord with kit on Peg/Cold One/Steed
L4 Death, mounted
BSB on Cold One/Steed
Peg with CoT
Some Core including Dark Riders, maybe a small witch Elves
4 Bolters
2* 5 Locks

Other stuff. Often a Cold One Bus (the build I choose to run) a couple of monsters or some shades/chariots etc

The reason this is so powerful - massive ranged threat projection with Bolters/Mounted Characters/Doombolt/Death, finish stuff off T1-4 then pick and choose the fights you want in later turns often with 3* Soulblight available or Doom and Darkness. Is this list harder to deal with than most other netlist builds? Maybe, maybe not. The point is, the list dominates in almost every phase and it's the warlocks and bolters that provide much of this.


I may not post much on these forums, so am probably not as well 'known' as several notable posters, but without blowing own trumpet too hard have probably the best or second best record with Dark Elves on the UK tournament scene since the book came out (I think Craig Johnson pips me) so know what I'm talking about/doing.

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Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:06 pm
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Jal wrote:
I agree, Swedish is lighter on WOC, but that's that nature of pretty much all comps - they rarely make all armies equal, more change where the bar is.


You just made my point for me. Thank you.

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Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:43 pm
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Quote:
Dark Elf Dreadlord on Cold One with Sea Dragon Cloak, Ogre Blade, Armor of Fortune and Dawnstone = 273 points and -23 Swede Comp

Chaos Lord on Juggernaut with shield, Ogre Blade, Armor of Fortune, Dawnstone and Mark of Khorne = 380 points and -13 Swede Comp


1. I would say that re-rolls to hit in combination with murderous prowess is where the big difference is. The dreadlord has almost no way of whiffing his attacks and with S6 (even better with giant blade) you have pretty much 100% wounds with the re-rolls of 1´s.

2. Mobility. Where are you going to hide that chaos lord? Apart from skullcrushers or warriors (you need a big unit for that or a slower warrior unit)? If you are up against cannons, you´re screwed. The Dreadlord gets a look out sir roll. The dreadlord can unit jump between units since DE has plenty to choose from.

3. Frenzy. Simply makes that chaos lord too unreliable unless you build the entire army around him and his retinue. A dreadlord has a place in almost any type of DE list. No wonder we see a lot of them.

So, is that dreadlord almost twice as good as his WoC counterpart? Yup, IMO he is. I´d take him every day of the week (for a steeper comp hit of course). Im not sayin the chaos lord is a bad choice. We had a guy over here that had good results with a skullcrusher deathstar with a lord along those lines. I belive the tzeentch lord on disc is a better comparison and comps around the same ammount as the dreadlord. Even then the dreadlord is better since he can go up against units solo, getting reliable kills keeps him in the fight longer. With the chaos lord, one round of bad rolls and he´s off.


Quote:
Why do Dark Elves take a comp hit for the Ogre Blade and WoC do not when the Ogre Blade is just as effective in the hands of a Chaos character?
Why do Dark Elves take a greater hit for the Dawnstone than WoC do?


Ogre blade: with re-rolls and murderous prowess the ogre blade is a lot better in the hands of a dreadlord, hence the greater comp hit.
Dawnstone: good point :)


Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:12 pm
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Quote:
1. I would say that re-rolls to hit in combination with murderous prowess is where the big difference is. The dreadlord has almost no way of whiffing his attacks and with S6 (even better with giant blade) you have pretty much 100% wounds with the re-rolls of 1´s.


Dreadlord with Ogre Blade has 4 attacks that will average 3.45 wounds (before armor saves) against anything with WS6 or less and T4 or less.

Against the same profile, the Chaos Khorne Lord with Ogre Blade has 6 attacks that will average 3.33 wounds. Against stuff with 3+ or better armor save or T5 or higher the Khorne Lord pulls ahead. This is before figuring in the 3 attacks from the mounts at WS5 and S5 (6 on the charge) plus stomp against infantry versus the 2 WS 3 S4 attacks from a Cold One. Damage output from the Khorne Lord is definitely higher.

Quote:
2. Mobility. Where are you going to hide that chaos lord? Apart from skullcrushers or warriors (you need a big unit for that or a slower warrior unit)? If you are up against cannons, you´re screwed. The Dreadlord gets a look out sir roll. The dreadlord can unit jump between units since DE has plenty to choose from.


The Khorne Lord would only be fielded in a unit of Skullcrushers big enough to give LoS!. Also, in practice, the Dreadlord on a Cold One isn't going to be jumping from unit-to-unit. A Dreadlord on a Dark Steed perhaps, but not if he's on a cold one.

Quote:
3. Frenzy. Simply makes that chaos lord too unreliable unless you build the entire army around him and his retinue. A dreadlord has a place in almost any type of DE list. No wonder we see a lot of them.


Seriously? Frenzy is really easy to mitigate. The guy is Ld9 and when near a BSB or with Gleaming Pennant in the unit the chance of a failed frenzy test is really low and the consequences are generally less dire than a failed stupidity check. Mandatory pursuit/overrun is a potential issue, but that can be mitigated as well if the Chaos player takes some chaff of his own to make sure that the Lord's unit doesn't have to engage low-value targets.

Also, the reason you see a lot of Dreadlords is because every army needs a general and Dreadlords are the only choice that makes any sense at all under Swede Comp. A master is very fragile at T3 and 2 wounds and only 50 points item allowance to try to protect him. Using a Level 4 in a non-combat unit with Banner of Discipline could be a good choice of general, but if you try to make her any good in the magic phase you take a HUGE hit under Swede Comp. So Dreadlord is the only choice left. If everyone is taking one, it might not be because he is so insanely awesome, but simply because they need a general and all the other options either suck (Fleetmaster? Yeah right) or are even more grossly over-comped.

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So, is that dreadlord almost twice as good as his WoC counterpart? Yup, IMO he is.


Don't take this the wrong way, but you're crazy. The Khorne Lord puts out more damage and is harder to kill. Frenzy is an issue, but it sure doesn't make the Dreadlord twice as good.

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Ogre blade: with re-rolls and murderous prowess the ogre blade is a lot better in the hands of a dreadlord, hence the greater comp hit.


Again, if you do the math, it's not.

Quote:
Dawnstone: good point :)


Thank you 8)

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Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:46 pm
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