2500 -- I hate Swedish Comp ...

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Dalamar
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Re: 2500 -- I hate Swedish Comp ...

Post by Dalamar »

Jal wrote:@Dal*a*mar
I don't know if I can be bothered really - 4 bolters and 10 Warlocks (in 2 5s normally) are outstanding and pointing out that two armies aren't too afraid of this combo is ignoring the rest to an almost facile level. Dark Elves are probably the best army in the game at effective board space control with bolters and Warlocks being a massive part of this. The usual netlist we see in the UK currently is something along the lines of:

Dreadlord with kit on Peg/Cold One/Steed
L4 Death, mounted
BSB on Cold One/Steed
Peg with CoT
Some Core including Dark Riders, maybe a small witch Elves
4 Bolters
2* 5 Locks

Other stuff. Often a Cold One Bus (the build I choose to run) a couple of monsters or some shades/chariots etc

The reason this is so powerful - massive ranged threat projection with Bolters/Mounted Characters/Doombolt/Death, finish stuff off T1-4 then pick and choose the fights you want in later turns often with 3* Soulblight available or Doom and Darkness. Is this list harder to deal with than most other netlist builds? Maybe, maybe not. The point is, the list dominates in almost every phase and it's the warlocks and bolters that provide much of this.


I may not post much on these forums, so am probably not as well 'known' as several notable posters, but without blowing own trumpet too hard have probably the best or second best record with Dark Elves on the UK tournament scene since the book came out (I think Craig Johnson pips me) so know what I'm talking about/doing.


Well here's the thing... Reapers may have went down in cost... but they still SUCK. There's a reason they're taken, and it's a very simple reason. Dark Elves have no other viable high strength ranged option aside from Reapers and Scourgerunners. The former is a lot easier to use so you obviously will see it more often (though my reapers did crap all last game and I decided to start practicing with scourgerunners more... they at least have an option to preserve points by driving away from a threat)
If your opponents are really afraid of 4 reapers... they haven't done their math right (and sure, sometimes they are excellent, but when doing mathhammer you need to look at averages). So 4 reapers against a DP - your typical good opponent will give you a single turn of shooting before he gets into combat and you can't shoot anymore. And likely you won't have perfect shots from all four reapers (but that's only if you play TLoS like the edition was designed). For ease of use I'll also assume that charmed shield has already been pinged away.

1.6 wounds against a T5 (they are T5 right? totally forgot) Demon Prince. So we're looking at 1-2 wounds on a DP, then he's in combat. If he's not in combat then he's in a position not threatened by the reapers. If the DP has the right mark (Slaanesh) then he very likely got either Acquiescence or Cacophonic Choir on his target of choice, which is now random move d6 and can't escape the charge. These are likely your amazing 10 warlocks who will vanish instantly to a Slaanesh DP. His cost is less than your indestructible 4 reapers and 10 warlocks so there's still an entire chaos army to deal with (which your 4 reapers haven't shot at)

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about... but perhaps you need to look for opponents willing to think outside the box instead of going for their own netlists of Nurgle DP and chariot spam.
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Mikael.k
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Re: 2500 -- I hate Swedish Comp ...

Post by Mikael.k »

Dreadlord with Ogre Blade has 4 attacks that will average 3.45 wounds (before armor saves) against anything with WS6 or less and T4 or less.

Against the same profile, the Chaos Khorne Lord with Ogre Blade has 6 attacks that will average 3.33 wounds. Against stuff with 3+ or better armor save or T5 or higher the Khorne Lord pulls ahead. This is before figuring in the 3 attacks from the mounts at WS5 and S5 (6 on the charge) plus stomp against infantry versus the 2 WS 3 S4 attacks from a Cold One. Damage output from the Khorne Lord is definitely higher.


Math really isnt my strong side so thank you for calculating it for me, I´ll take your word for it. But surely the dreadlord is better if he can manage a higher average with 4 attacks (3.45) than the chaos lords 6 (3.33)? Then there is the mounts of course on top of that. Still, damage output isnt everything when things are comped. Like for example lots of chaff wont kill much, but can be a deciding factor if you win the game or not. So, if you take lots of chaff, you´ll have to pay a steeper price in comp.

The Khorne Lord would only be fielded in a unit of Skullcrushers big enough to give LoS!. Also, in practice, the Dreadlord on a Cold One isn't going to be jumping from unit-to-unit. A Dreadlord on a Dark Steed perhaps, but not if he's on a cold one.



Yup, only sensible unit for him. A unit that is also very expensive compwise (even though crushers can be found in almost all list, regardless of comp :D ). The dreadlord on cold one might not be as mobile as on a dark steed but DR and warlocks are, so I dont see him having trouble jumping between units. Allthough its easier on a dark steed :)

Seriously? Frenzy is really easy to mitigate. The guy is Ld9 and when near a BSB or with Gleaming Pennant in the unit the chance of a failed frenzy test is really low and the consequences are generally less dire than a failed stupidity check. Mandatory pursuit/overrun is a potential issue, but that can be mitigated as well if the Chaos player takes some chaff of his own to make sure that the Lord's unit doesn't have to engage low-value targets.



The problem is not him failing a Ld test, the main issue is the forced overrun IMO. Against many elf armies that are so popular, those chaos hounds and marauder horsemen wont live long. So yes, the khorne lord and crusher can be very effective when they have the rest of the army to support them. I think they gave crushers a steeper comphit for multiple characters on juggers, need to check that out.

Also, the reason you see a lot of Dreadlords is because every army needs a general and Dreadlords are the only choice that makes any sense at all under Swede Comp. A master is very fragile at T3 and 2 wounds and only 50 points item allowance to try to protect him. Using a Level 4 in a non-combat unit with Banner of Discipline could be a good choice of general, but if you try to make her any good in the magic phase you take a HUGE hit under Swede Comp. So Dreadlord is the only choice left. If everyone is taking one, it might not be because he is so insanely awesome, but simply because they need a general and all the other options either suck (Fleetmaster? Yeah right) or are even more grossly over-comped.



Agreed. This is a point that has been raised lately. That level 4 comps too much, in practice forcing us to go the dreadlord route, and now that is too powerful...we´ll see if they will drop the cost on level 4´s :) .

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're crazy. The Khorne Lord puts out more damage and is harder to kill. Frenzy is an issue, but it sure doesn't make the Dreadlord twice as good.



No worries :D I personally would take the dreadlord every time.

Again, if you do the math, it's not.



See the reply on the top.

Thank you


You´re welcome :) I really think you guys should take these things to the authors and im sure they can provide you with better arguments aswell. The more input, the better compsystem and im all for that! :)
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Re: 2500 -- I hate Swedish Comp ...

Post by Cold73 »

Dark Elf Dreadlord on Cold One with Sea Dragon Cloak, Ogre Blade, Armor of Fortune and Dawnstone = 273 points and -23 Swede Comp

Chaos Lord on Juggernaut with shield, Ogre Blade, Armor of Fortune, Dawnstone and Mark of Khorne = 380 points and -13 Swede Comp


Woah...didn't know it was that huge a difference in the swedish comp.....
Then again the last year or so ago i simply skipped every swedish comp tournament i ever saw.

Looking at the offensive power of the Dread Lord..i agree...it is good....but the Chaos Lord on Juggernaut is a good second.

However...in pure defensive power the chaos lords wins by miles in my opinion.

Dreadlord is only T3....so every spearman in game has a chance to wound him....sure after that he has a good chance to save this.
But a Chaos Lord...with T5..... a spearman will not even be able to hit him hard enough so that he has to use his armour let alone his ward save.
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Re: 2500 -- I hate Swedish Comp ...

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Mikael.k wrote:Math really isnt my strong side so thank you for calculating it for me, I´ll take your word for it. But surely the dreadlord is better if he can manage a higher average with 4 attacks (3.45) than the chaos lords 6 (3.33)? Then there is the mounts of course on top of that. Still, damage output isnt everything when things are comped. Like for example lots of chaff wont kill much, but can be a deciding factor if you win the game or not. So, if you take lots of chaff, you´ll have to pay a steeper price in comp.


That average is before armor saves. The Khorne Lord has S7 so against heavily armored opponents his damage output is better. Also as you note, this does not account for the mounts and the Jugger is pretty nasty itself.

Also, you mention paying a steep comp hit for chaff. This is true for the Dark Elves, but it's NOT true for WoC. Marauder horse are just -2 for the first unit and -4 for each unit after that. In comparison, Dark Riders are -4 for the first, -6 for the second, and -9 each unit after that (with additional penalty for crossbows). WoC can also add in Chaos Warhounds to the mix for -2 per unit (-3 for each unit after the second).

Dark Elf Shades are VERY heavily comped (there is a per-model penalty, a per-unit penalty, and they figure into the shooting cap) as are Warlocks. Even Harpies are hit harder than Marauder Horse (-3 for the first unit, -7 for the second or third) even though nobody takes them anymore because of the point increase.

In other words, while Dark Elves pay a heavy penalty for for their chaff, WoC can get it for next to nothing. Another example of how the system is skewed.

Mikael.k wrote:The problem is not him failing a Ld test, the main issue is the forced overrun IMO. Against many elf armies that are so popular, those chaos hounds and marauder horsemen wont live long. So yes, the khorne lord and crusher can be very effective when they have the rest of the army to support them. I think they gave crushers a steeper comphit for multiple characters on juggers, need to check that out.


Agree that the chaff battle is important for making sure that a Jugger unit gets where it needs to go. There are lots of WoC players who don't take enough chaff. But there are some who do, and if they know how to use it it's big trouble for the Dark Elves. WoC also have core chariots that are very durable and good for clearing away chaff that get in range. Also, I see WoC players these days marking their marauder horse Slannesh and giving them missile weapons in order to take out Warlocks.

There is a comp hit for multiple Jugger characters.

You´re welcome :) I really think you guys should take these things to the authors and im sure they can provide you with better arguments aswell. The more input, the better compsystem and im all for that! :)


I have a fundamental problem with the philosophy behind the system so I am not necessarily interested in trying to fix it. I would rather spend my energy trying to make sure it doesn't spread any farther ...
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Re: 2500 -- I hate Swedish Comp ...

Post by Archamedius »

I will chime in and agree with both sides here. I think the IDEA or INTENT of the swedish comp system is a noble and excellent goal. I like it. However I think the nature of humanity and how fallible humans can be, the implementation of Swedish comp leaves a lot to be desired.

I believe the intent of Swedish comp was to make a system where people could take two lists from very different armies and judge relative power levels. I believe the intent of the system was to make it so two people could agree on a power level, and when they belly up to the table to play, if both players have the same comp score, each army should be evenly matched.

The reality is, humans made the system, and they often times do not see the power of certain things because of their experiences and prejudices. I say prejudices because as I understand it, one of the authors of the system is a dark elf player, and he has intentionally comped fast cav and warlocks in particular very hard because he felt they were very strong and didn't want to be accused of bias.

One of my club mates and regular practice partner for Buckeye placed 5th at Buckeye this year and took Warriors of Chaos.

His list is very similar to the standard GoKarts list without the demon prince. It placed a 9 on the swedish comp system.

It goes something like this:

Mounted Sorcerer Lord Mark of Slaanesh, Lore of Slaanesh Level 4, standard gear for a sorcerer lord.

Level 2 mark of Tzeentch, disk, Lore of Tzeentch.

Nurgle BSB with GW on Daemonic Mount.

2 Gorebeast Chartiots, Mark of Khorne

3 Regular Chariots, Mark of Khorne

2 Units of 5 Marauder Horsemen, flails and Mark of Slaanesh

2 units of 5 warhounds

1 unit of 5 hellstriders with the ASF whips and banner of swiftness

1 Unit of 4 Skullcrushers

1 Hellcannon

The only way I have found that I can beat him reliably is avoidance list. His chariots hit and destroy infantry blocks, and are sturdy enough that after the initial charge they can grind down even tougher infantry blocks. He has so many he can throw them away to tie things up if necessary.

The sorcerer lord can 6 dice choir the turn he needs to guarantee he wrecks your infantry and elite units, plus removes ASF and guarantees his units can follow up next turn with combo charges.

Swedish comp places him at a 9 and our fast cav avoidance list that can deal with it, is a 0 or worse.

This is the nature of how Swedish comp attempts to balance but in reality just creates a new OP with different armies.

Given the depth and variety that exists in warhammer armies, I think any attempt to really balance them the way Swedish Comp intended to, is such a monumental task it could not be completed before a new edition of the game came out.
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Re: 2500 -- I hate Swedish Comp ...

Post by Mikael.k »

Also, you mention paying a steep comp hit for chaff. This is true for the Dark Elves, but it's NOT true for WoC. Marauder horse are just -2 for the first unit and -4 for each unit after that. In comparison, Dark Riders are -4 for the first, -6 for the second, and -9 each unit after that (with additional penalty for crossbows). WoC can also add in Chaos Warhounds to the mix for -2 per unit (-3 for each unit after the second).


Well, dark riders are better than both marauder horsemen and warhounds, they should comp more. The have higher movement, shoot better and fight better. Why is that strange?

That average is before armor saves. The Khorne Lord has S7 so against heavily armored opponents his damage output is better. Also as you note, this does not account for the mounts and the Jugger is pretty nasty itself.


I usually see the giant blade, OTS, dawnstone with 1+ save combo alot more. He doesnt die very easily, especially aganst S3/4 opponents :) .

Also, I see WoC players these days marking their marauder horse Slannesh and giving them missile weapons in order to take out Warlocks.


I take those aswell, but no specifically to kill warlocks. Missile weapons on marauder horsemens are good vs most light troops :) .

I have a fundamental problem with the philosophy behind the system so I am not necessarily interested in trying to fix it. I would rather spend my energy trying to make sure it doesn't spread any farther ...


Why? If you dont like it, dont play it. It really isnt harder than that :) There are a lot of players that enjoy the comp pack. But as I said earlier, its not for everybody and there is nothing strange about that either.

The reality is, humans made the system, and they often times do not see the power of certain things because of their experiences and prejudices. I say prejudices because as I understand it, one of the authors of the system is a dark elf player, and he has intentionally comped fast cav and warlocks in particular very hard because he felt they were very strong and didn't want to be accused of bias.


That is not why dark elves are comped hard. The comp pack is modified after each bigger event here in sweden. The first drafts saw dark elves win two major events and dark elves did very well at the US masters, so the comp got adjusted. This goes for all armies. WoC got better comp because they struggle at placing well at tournaments. So, data is collected from major tournaments (in sweden mainly) and the commmunity as a whole. Swedish comp system allows for an untold ammount of variation in armies, is it really strange that finding all the holes are hard to find? Of course the system is flawed, so is every comp pack. Still, it makes for a fun game IMO :)

That is indeed a poweful list you have there Archamedius, but there is a lot of frenzy in there. But one cant stop them all I guess :)

I think lore of slaanesh is comped too lightly, the lore is awesome! :)
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Re: 2500 -- I hate Swedish Comp ...

Post by Dyvim tvar »

Mikael.k wrote:Well, dark riders are better than both marauder horsemen and warhounds, they should comp more. The have higher movement, shoot better and fight better. Why is that strange?


It's not. It's the degree of difference that is the problem.

Why? If you dont like it, dont play it. It really isnt harder than that :) There are a lot of players that enjoy the comp pack. But as I said earlier, its not for everybody and there is nothing strange about that either.


Because it sounds like in some places there isn't much choice but to play with it. I don't want that to be the case where I live.
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