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How to dismantle Throgg & his trolls (in combat)? 
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Slave on the Altar

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:14 am
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Throgg and his trolls are often a problem for me for several reasons:

Cheap - Throgg and five trolls are under 400 points, so usually come as just one threat out of many larger (often faster) ones which must first be dealt with. Even with seven trolls, it doesn't break the bank.

Mobile - M6

Curbstomps infantry, deletes armour - 3 S5 attacks (sometimes 4) per troll, + stomps, then Throgg's attacks, just flattens T3 infantry, and with T4 regen they can take a beating and live to strike back. However, going in with heavy cavalry also doesn't work since they can vomit S5 ignores-armour hits.

Whatever the case, Throgg can use his obscene S5 ignores-armour breath weapon to tip the scales of any fight, then finish you off with S8 attacks.


I suppose the ideal way to deal with them is to avoid, delay, or redirect. Failing that, throw purple suns, magic missiles, and bolt thrower bolts at it. But suppose you want to/have to deal with it in combat - what's the best way? I have a couple of ideas, and wondered if anyone else has any. Obviously the flaming banner is a must against them, although getting the right unit in the right place at the right time is very difficult.

1) I just realised that a 3x2 CoK unit, with flaming banner and no command, statistically kills Throgg on average if you charge them in so that all three can attack Throgg. 6 ASF S6 attacks from the knights, and 6 S4 from the cold ones, should do just over 4 wounds on average. You lose the unit to the trolls' retaliation, and the unit costs almost as much as Throgg, but by assassinating Throgg you rip the heart out of the unit and leave them vulnerable to Stupidity and much easier to out-fight with other units.

2) Would the following tactic work: Engage in the front with a lone model or low model-count unit (a Medusa or Master would work well) so that you touch Throgg, and simultaneously in the flank with a decent ranked unit (easier said than done). Normally they'd be resilient against flanking like this since Throgg could just move to the flank and kill 8 - 10 models. However, with Throgg already in base contact, he can't relocate and can only generate a maximum of 2 or 3 CR. This, combined with the units lack of ranks, should break them. Unless I'm mistaken and characters Make Way at their I step? I need to check that,


Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:38 am
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Flaming banner on a unit of Witches should do the trick. As you said, Purple Suns are good too ;)

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Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:46 am
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Well to your last point, make way! is carried out in the same step as challenges, and the player whos turn it is decides which happens first. So if its your turn (and it is since you just got the money charge), just call make way moves first. Throgg cant make way when he is already in base contact with an enemy. So your flankers can correctly murder trolls and hopefully break them via CR.

With regards to more normal situations. Shooting them works for sure. Purple sun, pit of shades as well.
Close combat does as well, although it is significantly more difficult since you must deal 8 unsaved wounds unless you have flaming attacks which, as you mentioned, is hard to get in perfect position. Since Throgg is T5 compared to the T4 of the trolls, the best way to handle him I think, is to simply kill as much of his unit off as you can. You'll strike first, so if you can get many trolls down, you wont suffer as many return casualties, and you can win combat. Best unit for this is obviously witch elves, followed by black guard. Anything with a high volume of attacks will do. And then as you said yourself: delay, delay, delay.

Throgg and 5 trolls = 5 trolls = 15 T4 wounds = 30 wounds inflicted for the unit to die for sure. For 400 points you can buy 30 witch elves which comes out of core allowance. Place them opposite of the troll block.

30 witch elves in horde = 50 attacks. Thats 8 poison wounds, a further 25 normal hits, then rerolls for a further 3 poison wounds and 8,5 more normal hits. At 5+ to wound, you get 11 wounds, 5 1's for another lets say 2 wounds. Total 24 wounds. Thats 12 unsaved by regen, thats 4 dead trolls. 1 troll and Throgg strikes back with 8 attacks in total + a S5 breath. Lets see, Throgg hits n 3+ so 3,3 hits = 3 wounds. The normal troll hits on 4's so 1,5 hits = lets say 2 wounds to allow for the unforseen. 2 stomps for 2 wounds. Breath weapon average 6 wounds, total 13 wounds. But then you have a rank more than him, and a flag. And ideally you where the one to charge, since warriors sort of have to be the ones to cross the board, but even then, statistics should give you the win.

Unless you kill him outright? MI so 40 mm base, means 4 witches in base contact yeah? 20 attacks. 3 poison wounds and like 7 hits. Then rerolls for another 1-2 poison wounds and another 3 hits. Then 6's to wound for 1-2 wounds, rerolling 1's for maybe 1 more. In total you stand a decent chance of killing him outright unless he rolls very well with his saves.

Add the flaming banner at your own risk: if the enemy suspects it and runs his chaos lord with 2+ vs flaming into that unit, you're done for.

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Last edited by Thraundil on Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:54 am
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Hello swordofglass, and welcome.

As Demetrius said, Witch Elves with the Flaming banner will likely put the hurt on this unit. With the Cauldron, they'll steamroll over it. However, that said, you will need to use your chaff well in order for them to engage this unit on your own terms. Otherwise, your opponent will make sure that they never see any worthy combat.


Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:58 am
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Highborn

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When playing against WoC I often use a lvl 4 on Shadow and a lvl 2 with metal.
Shadow is great....your opponent will not like you having MindRazor on your Witches...but will not want his Trolls Withered either.

21 Witches with flaming banner... will seriously hurt or even destroy 6 trolls, especially when combined with other debuffing spells from the lore of Shadow.
Besides...if you manage to get pit off...and kill 2-3 trolls with just one simple spell..he might not even want to come near your Witches.

You do ofcourse have to get your WE in his trolls..but with enought Dark Riders (redirect) and several hard hitting units like Hydra/Black Guard/Executioners...that should not be that difficult.

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Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:01 am
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Demetrius wrote:
Flaming banner on a unit of Witches should do the trick.


+1

Depends a lot on unit size, but equal points value of Witches should take down the Trolls even without a Cauldron.

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Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:16 pm
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Trouble is, it can be hard getting the witches into the right combat. They are frenzied, and they will be absolutely mauled by anything with an 1+ armor save that runs into them...

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Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:25 pm
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Frenzy isn't that big of a deal if you keep general and/or BSB near them.

1+ armor save though ... definitely need to avoid that

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Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:55 pm
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A Dreadlord on pegasus with the cloak of twilight will take out throgg.

Dreadlord- cloak of twilight, dark pegasus, heavy armour, SDC, shield, potion of foolhardiness, lance- 289pts

Drink potion, charge, challenge throgg, run the rest of the trolls down when they lose combat.

But you can't really go wrong with flaming witches, they always have a use :)

That or go for a cheap fire sorceress or two and six dice the mega fireball :burns:


Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:19 pm
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Dyvim tvar wrote:
Frenzy isn't that big of a deal if you keep general and/or BSB near them.

1+ armor save though ... definitely need to avoid that



Only Skullcrushers (which are frenzied too) and knights are 1+ in a WoC army. Witches are by far the best solution to Trogg. But take lots of chaff especially if the Trogg player field chariots (the bane of witches). :burns:


Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:37 pm
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Dont forget the exalted hero or lord on demonic mount with scaly skin. The ultra bane of all witches :P

But yeah. A lord with the cloak can pop Throgg. If he fails, however, he is dead meat to their vomit return attacks!

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Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:23 pm
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Thraundil wrote:
Dont forget the exalted hero or lord on demonic mount with scaly skin. The ultra bane of all witches :P

But yeah. A lord with the cloak can pop Throgg. If he fails, however, he is dead meat to their vomit return attacks!


Locked in challenge remember, only Throgg can attack him and he can only attack Throgg until either of them are dead or one of them flees.

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Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:06 pm
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Fight fire with an CO 2 extinguisher!

Big ol' unit of flaming witchies with hellebron.
Since hellebrons attacks are magical, therefore they arent flaming.

all problems solved.
Once the trolls are dead, this unit will carve like a hot knife through the rest of his army.


Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:13 am
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Liquidedust wrote:
Thraundil wrote:
Dont forget the exalted hero or lord on demonic mount with scaly skin. The ultra bane of all witches :P

But yeah. A lord with the cloak can pop Throgg. If he fails, however, he is dead meat to their vomit return attacks!


Locked in challenge remember, only Throgg can attack him and he can only attack Throgg until either of them are dead or one of them flees.


Throgg's vomit breath weapon (2d6 S5 armour-ignoring hits) and his hand-to-hand attacks will likely make soup out of most Twilight lords... assuming Throgg survives to strike back, of course.

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Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:53 pm
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Haagrum wrote:
Liquidedust wrote:
Thraundil wrote:
Dont forget the exalted hero or lord on demonic mount with scaly skin. The ultra bane of all witches :P

But yeah. A lord with the cloak can pop Throgg. If he fails, however, he is dead meat to their vomit return attacks!


Locked in challenge remember, only Throgg can attack him and he can only attack Throgg until either of them are dead or one of them flees.


Throgg's vomit breath weapon (2d6 S5 armour-ignoring hits) and his hand-to-hand attacks will likely make soup out of most Twilight lords... assuming Throgg survives to strike back, of course.


Yeah no denying that, but was just a clarification of the rules :)

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Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:36 pm
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In my MSU list I've had problems as only one unit has the flaming banner, and since all ASF attacks hit at the same time, the trolls will keep their regen against all ASF units other than the one with the banner...

My ideas for getting around this consist of sticking a bloodwrack shrine into a unit with the flaming banner. Then the flaming impact hits from the shrine happen (and negate the unit's regen) before the pegasus mounted combat characters I've multicharged the unit with get to swing. All theory crafting atm though.

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Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:40 pm
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Since they are striking at the same time I still think that the trolls would have lost their Regen.
Remember even a Hydra with Breath Weapon can remove regen against his own attacks just by using his Breath Weapon. Just do the Breath Weapon first...and the attacks after even though they are generally at the same initiative.

But as far as I know when striking at the same time/same iniatiative you get to decide which unit to go first.

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Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:31 am
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Cold73 wrote:
Since they are striking at the same time I still think that the trolls would have lost their Regen.
Remember even a Hydra with Breath Weapon can remove regen against his own attacks just by using his Breath Weapon. Just do the Breath Weapon first...and the attacks after even though they are generally at the same initiative.

But as far as I know when striking at the same time/same iniatiative you get to decide which unit to go first.


This is incorrect mate. All attacks during an initiative step are simultaneous, you can't choose flaming attacks to go first. So yeah, the Hydra's normal attacks won't go through the regen unless something with flaming attacks has already wounded the enemy at an earlier initiative step.

Shooting/ magic is different, you can fire flaming shots first and then non-flaming shots after regen has already been stripped.

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Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:02 am
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Thanks for correcting me...Never had that problem myself...
But i had one of my Hydra's killed by another Hydra in the previous edition once.

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Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:38 am
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This is like asking; what's the best way to stop a bullet (using only your face)?

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Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:08 am
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Demetrius wrote:
Cold73 wrote:
Since they are striking at the same time I still think that the trolls would have lost their Regen.
Remember even a Hydra with Breath Weapon can remove regen against his own attacks just by using his Breath Weapon. Just do the Breath Weapon first...and the attacks after even though they are generally at the same initiative.

But as far as I know when striking at the same time/same iniatiative you get to decide which unit to go first.


This is incorrect mate. All attacks during an initiative step are simultaneous, you can't choose flaming attacks to go first. So yeah, the Hydra's normal attacks won't go through the regen unless something with flaming attacks has already wounded the enemy at an earlier initiative step.

Shooting/ magic is different, you can fire flaming shots first and then non-flaming shots after regen has already been stripped.


Also note that Breath Weapons are always at initative, regardless of if you have ASF or ASL on your other attacks.

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vs. High Elves: 0/4/0
vs. Lizardmen: 3/0/0
vs. Orcs & Goblins: 3/0/1
vs. Ogres: 1/0/0
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Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:28 am
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Slave on the Altar

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Many thanks everyone for your thoughts. I think this quote

JWK47 wrote:
This is like asking; what's the best way to stop a bullet (using only your face)?


makes a lot of sense. I guess it's just more satisfying for me to beat something in combat, than to run away from it.


Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:24 pm
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Slave (off the Altar)

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15-20 sisters of slaughter with flaming banner and witchbrew hag? :)
I have not done the math-hammer on this, but I think it could work, mini9mal point investment, the only things is that you need to get them in to combat, but chaos cant shoot much so should be alright!


Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:36 am
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I run 10 Sisters with the Flame banner in almost all my lists for the sole purpose of Trolls and Beasts of Nurgle.

Against Throgg + 5 Trolls:
- More often than not the Sisters (4 wide, 4 supporting) will drop Throgg (4.5 wounds on average)
- Other 4 attacks (champ) do 2.3 more wounds for a total of 6.8

- 5 Trolls come back and average 3.12 kills
- 5 stomps (being generous) do another 2.08 for a total of 5.2 kills.

Sisters have a banner, so on average will win combat by 2.6.

Sisters of Slaughter - check them out (if not just because the models are sweet).


Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:46 pm
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MurphyAKL wrote:
I run 10 Sisters with the Flame banner in almost all my lists for the sole purpose of Trolls and Beasts of Nurgle.

Against Throgg + 5 Trolls:
- More often than not the Sisters (4 wide, 4 supporting) will drop Throgg (4.5 wounds on average)
- Other 4 attacks (champ) do 2.3 more wounds for a total of 6.8

- 5 Trolls come back and average 3.12 kills
- 5 stomps (being generous) do another 2.08 for a total of 5.2 kills.

Sisters have a banner, so on average will win combat by 2.6.

Sisters of Slaughter - check them out (if not just because the models are sweet).


Except now Trogg will have a Doombull in the unit with Blackened Plate giving them a 4+ ward save against flame attacks.


Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:50 pm
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