The End Times lists and 50% lord/hero allowance.

[Dalamar]

So I've been trying to create a few end times list, taking advantage of the expanded lords and heroes allowance and every time I encounter the same problem.

Once I have my characters and my combat troops down... i find i have no room left for support units that aren't core. So no reapers, no scourgerunners, no shades or harpies... I just barely manage to squeeze in a minimal unit of warlocks.

And those lists don't even contain any dragons!

[Amboadine]

That will be the issue. Especially at lower points levels where you need to include you 3 units as a minimum requirement.
I think with a certain number of armies the lists will be pretty similar to the current. I know sometimes I would have loved 26% to optimise a load out.
50% maxed will probably be fairly rare in powerful balanced builds.

[Vulcan]

That's the problem with the new rule. For armies where the characters do the heavy lifting, it's wonderful, especially if they have strong core. The armies that depend on their special and rare choices see no benefit from it.

And thus if further unbalances an already unbalanced game.

[Haagrum]

I think that the main change we'll see over time is armies with 30%-40% Lords, taking advantage of the extra room to fit in fully-kitted characters rather than half-equipped ones to fit under the points cap.

I also believe that this will drop the numbers of Hero-level characters, other than battle standard bearers. The extra points have to come from somewhere, as Dalamar points out. In many armies, mobile Lords are more points-efficient for multiple intended functions than multiple Heroes with separate roles.

I think with a certain number of armies the lists will be pretty similar to the current. I know sometimes I would have loved 26% to optimise a load out.

As a part-time Daemons player, I can't tell you how annoying the 25% cap was for 2000 points. If you wanted a level 4 caster, you were forced either to take a Lord of Change, or a naked level 4 GUO or Keeper. In an army with no Dispel Scrolls, that gets annoying.

[Rork]

I haven't spent close to 50% on characters, yet alone lords, since something like 1998. If you put too many points into characters, your strategy becomes all about them.

More warm bodies is often much better than one guy with a glowy sword.

[DA SAVAGE]

I like a dragon and a lv 4 just them for around 750ish then a couple pegmasters and you still have a fair amount of points for exact core and say 2 bolt throwers. i made one but cant find it. it had plenty tho

[Dalamar]

And thus if further unbalances an already unbalanced game.

How does it do it? I hear this sentence repeated on essentially every forum I visit and maybe I'm just that dense but I don't see how it unbalances anything.

It's not like if some armies suddenly got free points to spend on their characters. If I have to deal with a second demon prince, there's a good chance I won't have to deal with skullcrushers, or two chimeras or other combination of non-core troops. I find that to be a much better prospect.

[Omnichron]

It is too soon to say how the meta will change and whom will benefit the most with these changes, but there are those that now can get out insane combos or killer characters on low points (I look at you VC and WoC).

Also, some armies might be able to make insane deathstars (HE, Ogres) so that you can't really pick points from them in any easy way. For my DE army, I've been thinking about fast cav death stars as well, although I think deathstars are boring and with a few spells (dwellers) you should be able to deal with some of those things.

The problem is that we also get these humongous characters from the End Times rules (like Apocalypse for 40k), that might be too strong. Of course, it is still way too early to say anything about that, but I do not like the change. I personally like the idea of Warhammer being about using tactics to win, not bringing the strongest badass character to plow through the opposive army (or get killed by the super character the other guy fields).

[Dalamar]

And how about that character getting killed by a regular unit?

[Killerk]

Well Ive been thinking about this for a few days now, how to fully maximise on the changes. I hqve started with my warriors army as clearly they benefit the most from the changes..... I mean 50% lord allowence ... that is just sick. When I looked at my beloved druchii I quickley realised that here the lord allowence is not so important, the high cost and low resiliance of our lords make them not the best choice when point efficiency is conserned. But if you look at our hero levle charachters .... hmmmm there we can find some goodies. By taking a L4 out of our lord allowence and support wizards out of our rare. We now have the ability to spam 98 point fast cav. 1+ save and lance weilding darts. . in a normal 2400 game thats 12 of them. Add to the fact 25% core dark riders and warlocks, plus a possibke RBT or two, and you have an insane force.And cant forget a u it or 2 of shades.

[Killerk]

a force like that will be able to avoid getting pinned down. I mean most of you army is vanguarding hits like a ton of briks.

I wouldnt honestly take 12 dark rider heroes I would mix them up with 3-4 pegs as fliers uave the reach that fast cav dont nessesarly posses.

the sad part is I have the models to feild a force like that :/

and since you heroes make up for you hammers, you dont need to include them in you list. Saving you the points to feild support units. As it is the only thing you need from your army is to support you heroes so they do what they are suppoelsed to do.

[Dalamar]

I would happily face a force like that, absolutely zero staying power. If you dont break whatever you charge in one go... you're toast.

[Amboadine]

I would happily face a force like that, absolutely zero staying power. If you dont break whatever you charge in one go... you're toast.

Is this Clash of the Titans Rd 3?

[Killerk]

Well its enough for one of the heroes to stay and the rest cant get caught. In the now changing meta big units are not verry common.

As to the clash... its an option. Thou must admit I think the last game of WFB I played was against Dalamar.

[Mikael.k]

Anybody actually played a game with the new errata in play, that can share their thoughts on the matter?

[Dalamar]

I have, 3k points against empire. Used Malekith on Seraphon, he was less effective than anything else in the army.

[Demetrius]

People who mentioned that using 30% of Lords will be more common than the full 50% are spot on. This largely benefits armies that can't fit in a Level 4 and a tooled combat lord in the 25% (Warriors, Vampires, Ogres etc). So this won't affect Dark Elves all too much IMO because we can already comfortably fit a Level 4 and a tooled Dreadlord on Steed in 600 points (25% of 2400). It will allow obscene polarised lists like 6-7 peg guys, but I don't see that becoming the norm because of comp/ needing actual units to break steadfast/ not able to duplicate magic items. That said, DE can now run a DL on dragon + a level 4, which is great if you like dragons.

[Killerk]

You can beake steadfast in one of two ways.
1. Have equal or same amount of ranks
2. kill off any ranks opponent has.

also you can manage steadfast by reducing enemy LD.

I dieing to try out a massive wave of heroes mounted on pegs and dark steeds. but bettween WoT and Infinity I just cant force my self to play Fantasy.

[Omnichron]

And how about that character getting killed by a regular unit?

Which regular unit is strong and quick enough to take out pegasus or fast cav characters?

I have played against HE armies (and other armies with strong unit builds) with their famous white lion block (BotWD and sometimes a few characters), and they never reach my fast characters unless I do the charge (which comes when I have weakened them enough).

[Killerk]

as to fast cav charachters I must say exes. but you need magic to be effective and a carless opponent to get engaged.

[Omnichron]

as to fast cav charachters I must say exes. but you need magic to be effective and a carless opponent to get engaged.

If my fast cav characters ends up in a fight against a full Executioners block, I have done something terribly wrong.

[Amboadine]

If my fast cav characters ends up in a fight against a full Executioners block, I have done something terribly wrong.

QFT

[Dalamar]

If you're dodging a unit all game... you will get shot and magicked apart... and your 12 mobile masters will be bleeding points fast.

[Omnichron]

If you're dodging a unit all game... you will get shot and magicked apart... and your 12 mobile masters will be bleeding points fast.

Well, no... because I would only avoid the executioners and run through the rest of the army.

12 fastcav masters could be in two fast cav units. Other than that I could use dark riders or shades (if there is room for special) for shooting and blocking those dangerous blocks while I rush through the rest of the enemy army.

If I got enough time I can do a final charge against that block of executioners, after I have dwindled down enough their numbers. If they are still strong or I don't get the time with the turns, I will just leave that final block alone.

For a DE fastcav list I would still take the most essential RBT and Shades I tend to use and have the rest for masters, sorceresses and dark riders. Mobile and quick with good shooting and no chance for those infantry blocks to get into any close combats, unless I decide to go into them.

[Red...]

If you're dodging a unit all game... you will get shot and magicked apart... and your 12 mobile masters will be bleeding points fast.

I'm in mixed minds about this. On the one hand, the mobile masters wouldn't be dodging all game, they'd be hacking apart and routing easy prey (like enemy warmachines, fast troops, and other small units), to rack up enough points to win the game. On the other, the best magic items go quickly, and so there would be a good few masters who would be protected by a simple 1+ armor save, rather than with a supplementary powerful ward save. And that's when massed shooting, magic, or artillery fire can really ruin the day quickly: a cannon ball in the face can insta-kill a pegasus master really quite easily when all he has is mundane armor. Hiding them in fast cavalry only goes so far (fast cavalry drop like flies when hit by massed missile, magic, or artillery fire, leaving the master(s) quickly exposed).