Large units of Crossbows

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Boltshot525
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Large units of Crossbows

Post by Boltshot525 »

I would like to hear of people who have used large units of crossbows (30+)

I'm tempted to take these units as combat blocks for steadfast and dagger fuel.

The way I see it:

-Witches are good but against good opponents are just abused due to frenzy

-Spears/bleak swords are just bad

-corsairs with RHB are good but only as screeners at low numbers.

Crossbowmen are a bit more expensive but the mass shooting and parry save are looking like a great choice to me in large units.
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by Dyvim tvar »

I've used a unit of 30 but not larger.

The main thing about them is that the unit becomes very expensive. With shields, they become a good multi-purpose unit that can melt a lot of other stuff before it even gets to your lines. Also, If you deploy 3 deep to maximize ranks and HTH attacks, you do lose some shooting.
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Red...
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by Red... »

Big units of RxBs were very much the fashion when 8th ed first came out.

Some players still like them, but they have several major problems:
- Expensive (as Dyvim Tvar mentions: needs no additional explanation).
- Lack of focus. The majority of Dark Elf warriors specialize in one particular area or another (witches chew through massed hordes, executioners deal with high armor foes, blackguard hold the line, bleakswords and blightspears provide bulk, dark riders/shades/harpies act as fast troops, etc). A big unit of RxBs (e.g. 3 ranks of 10) is too generalist for my liking: it provides a bit of mass, some shooting, and some melee power (30 attacks from their horde formation), but does none as well as other options in the army (mass can be provided by bleakswords and blightspears, shooting is better done by smaller units of RxBs in 1 or 2 rows), and melee is done better by myriad other melee choices.
- Lack of maneuverability. Horde units can be a pain to position, and it gets even more challenging to position a horde unit that wants to have good line of sight for shooting. On boards with more rather than less scenery, it can be headache proposition of where to place and then move your RxBs.

-Spears/bleak swords are just bad

Untrue. Bleakswords are awesome: 5+ armor save and a 6+ parry save, ASF (striking first and re-rolling misses against most foes), murderess prowess, and the option for a magic banner - all for less than 10 points per model - is incredible. As a supreme sorceress bunker, they are brilliant: give them the standard of discipline and they get leadership 10 (with a 12" leadership bubble if the SS is the general), and they are cheaper to sacrifice than any other model (except blightspears, which cost the same and can perform the same role, with a bit more hitting power but no parry save). Run them in a narrow but deep column, with a supreme sorceress at their head and the standard of discipline, and you have a leadership 10 unit that will usually have steadfast. It's about as roadblock a unit as dark elves can get.
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Bozo69PD
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by Bozo69PD »

I have a supreme sorceress with no bunker for her to go in, and have been considering Darkshards or whatever the xbows are called. That way this unit can hang back covering her while still shooting and being somewhat tough with the shields. Would this be a good choice? 30 models or so? What formation?
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by Red... »

Depends on what you want the SS to do. If you want her to be casting short range offensive spells, then no. If you want her to cast long range offensive spells, then probably. If you want her to buff up your other units, then maybe (depending on the range of the buffing spells and where the other units are going to be positioned).

Personally, I prefer my SS to be in a big block of bleakswords, as that way she can advance forward in a unit that can hold its own (for the reasons given in my earlier post), and so provide both offensive and buffing support.
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Saintofm
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by Saintofm »

I try not to go more then 20, or now 2 units of 20 now that I got them.

One buss of crossbows sounds a bit much.

I know they can fight in close combat in 3 ranks, but can a horde shoot as well?
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by marcopollo »

A SS with heavens is a good choice for gunline type lists. With commet, harmonic convergence and iceshard blizzard, you can get some nice synergy with RBT's and RxB's.
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by Boltshot525 »

I never really consider heavens. Il try it next game
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by Calisson »

Bozo69PD wrote:I have a supreme sorceress with no bunker for her to go in, and have been considering Darkshards or whatever the xbows are called. That way this unit can hang back covering her while still shooting and being somewhat tough with the shields. Would this be a good choice? 30 models or so? What formation?
30 Xbows are tad too many, according to several advice I can recall.
Still, with FC and shield, they make a decent melee unit, but for a hefty pts cost.
They would be most likely set as horde, in order to allow 20 of them to shoot, and all of them to hit.

Alternatively, I like 2 units of 10, no shields, musician (for being able to shoot at a target in the rear). That allows to select two different targets, and the sorceress just jumps from the one unit going to be charged to the other one.
They would be set in two ranks, so that all could shoot.
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by direweasel »

I like my xbow units in 10s, if you have a huge block they all have to shoot at the same thing. Smaller blocks give you more control over your shooting.
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Re: Large units of Crossbows

Post by Daeron »

If you feel like trying it, then by all means go ahead! And give us a report on your results :)

I'm not a very experienced played in the field, and I haven't seen such large blocks being played since the new book but.... I have seen them regularly with the old book and they failed more often than worked. At least in larger games. They tend to work only in rather strict circumstances (opponent, terrain, small to medium sized battles) and with a little luck. While they do have quite some strengths, on paper, they have some major drawbacks... and some effective counters which opponents may learn quickly.

First, as a major drawback is that 30 bodies is a lot of models but it's still T5 and 5+ AS against magic and shooting. Focused fire against the unit is still effective and desirable. A regular combat unit would not suffer from focused fire as easily because: it can be screened, it can use terrain, it can use deployment to "become harder to hit". Your dark shards, on the other hand, will likely prefer an open line of sight to the enemy... and back. One round of focused fire could half the unit, or decimate it if the opponent has enough firepower. It's a very attractive target for it: it's an expensive unit and it houses characters. A small shooting unit is less attractive because there could be bigger threats and priorities. 30 is a lot of bodies, I'll admit, but it tends to be exposed.

I've seen such units being panicked in the first round and flee right off the table. This is where the leadership and position within the army comes into play. It's not likely to house your BSB (which would make the unit insanely expensive). It might house a Sorceress (ld 9 top). You'll want something extra to make sure the unit is not vulnerable to a single panic check. You could deploy it with the BSB nearby, give the unit a gleaming pennant or standard of discipline. This increases the footprint of the unit on your army. And the moment your BSB moves away, the unit becomes vulnerable.

A mobile unit could play games with a large shooter unit. A flank can be threatened. You could turn to shoot it.. but that would expose your unit to the rest of the field, not to mention impair your shooting for a second round as you might have to turn back to the juicy targets next round.

And it's vulnerable to debuffs... While that is true for any large unit, not every large unit is as susceptible to it. A combat debuff on the unit will only affect it in combat. A shooting debuff will affect it every turn. A defense debuff (withering, soulblight, ...) will make it even more susceptible to focus fire.

I've seen it work rather effectively against Chaos, because the chaos army that battled it didn't have the means to counter it. I've also seen it win a game first round (or second round) in a small game where it's more difficult to counter. That's pretty much the only times I saw it work effectively. The unit has been blasted, panicked or been disabled otherwise.

If it were a Dwarf unit, I'd say go for it. But for Elves, I'd recommend trading 1 unit of 30 for 3 units of 10. Now 3 units of 10 look less attractive on the board, but they offer far more tools and mobility. Additionally, your general could hop from one unit to the other, increasing the movement and mobility. For example: you could make 1 unit (without general) march forward, and have the general leave its current unit to join the marched unit. The general can then take a position in the unit, favourable for casting. This leaves the other 2 units free to shoot, while you have increased (and changed) the threat from your general's bunker. The downside is that's easier to blast such a unit away, exposing your general. So it would be best to give the general an exit strategy in time.... But then again, because mobility is less of an issue, it's easier to do.
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