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Karl Franz Ascendant 
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But the empire faq specifies that empire warrior priests are NOT wizards... So while this is an excellent find, I am not sure if it will work. But for sure, a fun idea that might catch Nagash players unaware :P

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Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:58 am
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If that's the case, can you legally use the hex scroll on a Warrior Priest?


Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:02 am
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Phierlihy wrote:
Bound Spells, pg 47
Some magic items, often rings and amulets, and certain troop types, have the ability to use a form of magic called a 'bound spell'. Bound spells can be used even if the bearer has broken his concentration or is not a Wizard at all. Possessing a bound spell does not make a character a Wizard - he just has an item that can cast a spell.

Karl Franz has no item that casts a spell so I don't believe this applies in any way. His spell is innate like that of a Warrior Priest.


Whether or not KFA has a magical item which casts the Lord of Lightning spell is irrelevant for the purposes of the Hex Scroll. It's arguably a question of whether he's a wizard, and having a bound spell (innate or otherwise) does not make him a wizard.

Since this is entering :badh: territory, and since I'd like you to be right, I'll leave this argument where I've previously left it - there is enough ambiguity in the rules for the Hex Scroll to be argued both ways in respect of a bound spell, but the caster of a bound spell (of any kind) is not a wizard simply because they can cast that bound spell, whatever its source.

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Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:39 am
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Sadly, the wording of hex scroll ruins it. KFA is not a wizard. End of :(

Anyways, here's the game.
His list was KFA, lvl 2 light on steed, lvl 2 heavens on steed, BSB on steed, 15 ICK, 10 knights with great weapons, steam tank and 4 Demis. He had a comp score of 0 in our beta system.

I brought Malekith on cold one, lvl 2 dark on steed, master BSB on cold one, 2 masters on cold one (one with OTS, one with potion of strength), 10 witches, 3x5 DR, 14 darkshards, 4 RBT, a medusa and 13 warlocks. My comp score was 3.

I decided on a battle for the pass to maximise the distance he would have to run. Terrain was nice to him, so he had to expose KFA for one turn before he could charge me. In that turn, all my 4 RBT's decided to miss. He then charged, challenged, Malekith accepted and destroyed his 4+ ward save. Malekith was squished where he stood, and slowly but surely his all-1+ came up and smashed me to pieces.
The plus side: after his ward was gone, the warlock unit and surviving masters did manage to bring KFA down to 3 remaining wounds. The minus side: After Malekith didnt destroy the weapon, I never even had a chance. I trust everything on a 25% chance - and even if it had succeeded, Malekith and KFA had just tanked each other until he would've flanked my unit with ICK and demis, and likely broken them...

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Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:17 am
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Grim reading!

Terrifying as KFA obviously is in terms of weapon, I do think the main issue in this case is the zero margin of error on the Destroyer roll. To my mind it's the present asymmetry of access to combined rider/mount stat-lines driving that. Assuming (!) that combined stat-lines are coming to us all, the imbalance should be sorted once the "update wave" has swept through all the armies/factions. Malekith on Seraphon with combined wounds has a chance of surviving more than one round with KFA, and with the second round comes another magic item destroyed, etc. (Or a generic Dreadlord with dragon and combined stat-line, bearing Black Amulet, etc. would survive to the second round too).

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Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:30 pm
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flatworldsedge wrote:
Grim reading!

Terrifying as KFA obviously is in terms of weapon, I do think the main issue in this case is the zero margin of error on the Destroyer roll. To my mind it's the present asymmetry of access to combined rider/mount stat-lines driving that. Assuming (!) that combined stat-lines are coming to us all, the imbalance should be sorted once the "update wave" has swept through all the armies/factions. Malekith on Seraphon with combined wounds has a chance of surviving more than one round with KFA, and with the second round comes another magic item destroyed, etc. (Or a generic Dreadlord with dragon and combined stat-line, bearing Black Amulet, etc. would survive to the second round too).


A lot will indeed be sorted once statlines are merged for "us all". Malekith with a cimbined 9W T6 profile would be amazing... Especially if his magic armour carries over!

A generic dreadlord? Not so much. KFA hits on 4+ with his 10 attacks, this is 5 hits which autowounds and ignores armor. On average, the generic lord will sufer 2,5 wounds after wards, each dealing d3+1, which is average 3 wounds. Theres every chance KFA will pop the dreadlord in a single combat round. The problem is that outside of dealing massive damage to KFA with our 4 bolt throwers to the extent an ASF lord can take him down in one go, nothing can really touch him. And this requires us to put something like 6-7 wounds on KFA with shooting. Which, on average, takes 3 turns...

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Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:03 am
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Phierlihy wrote:
Bound Spells, pg 47
Some magic items, often rings and amulets, and certain troop types, have the ability to use a form of magic called a 'bound spell'. Bound spells can be used even if the bearer has broken his concentration or is not a Wizard at all. Possessing a bound spell does not make a character a Wizard - he just has an item that can cast a spell.

Karl Franz has no item that casts a spell so I don't believe this applies in any way. His spell is innate like that of a Warrior Priest.


Can you use the hex scroll on a warrior priest?


Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:28 am
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RE: Generic dreadlord, I had forgotten about the sheer number of attacks in all honesty! Still, my hope was that if special characters get combined stat-lines, then ultimately all mounted characters including generics will get it... but that's clearly a long way off (at best!).

If a generic had the combined stat-line with dragon, then something like Glittering Scales, Black Amulet, Warrior Bane would be the kind of build I'd go for. Attacking first with the extra attacks and warrior bane, plus combined stats (strength and attacks, per KFA) with mount, could be 9 attacks, hitting with 6.75 (after ASF rerolls), wounding with 4.5, dealing 2.25 after ward saves. KFA then gets to respond with 8, hitting with 2.6, 1.3 rebound (.65 after ward), leaving 4 to the DL. At the end of the round KFA has taken 3, the DL has taken 4.

However, we've only paid 530 for the DL - leaving enough spare change for a couple of cheap pegmasters to weigh in on the combat, or a lv4 on peg to buff/hex and improve the odds above. All in all its not a fight I'd relish, and the skew favours KFA dramatically (each extra wound he gets through turning into ~3 is disproportionate), but it's one I can *imagine* winning. Right now I can't even get to that point!

Of course, it's all based on the combined stat-lines for generics... here's hoping!

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Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:01 am
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KFA has 10 attacks ;) Even with glittering scales its 3,33 wounds. Sure 1,66 rebounds but the dreadlord takes average 5 wounds. He's dead in 2 combat rounds... But ya its definitely doable IF we can get a combined statline dragonlord... Though I'd take the other tricksters shard over warrior bane, since the return wound from black amulet is then all but guaranteed, whereas the extra attack from the weapon wouldn't be :p

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WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:08 am
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Think we're on the same page. Just to tidy the numbers, the Warriorbane is -1 attack/wound caused, hence KFA dropping from 10 to 8 in my numbers. Thinking about it, using the OTS, dropping the Warriorbane is probably better - give KFA more attacks, but reflect more of them!

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Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:23 am
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Sadly, I think the most reasonable solution that involves killing KFA is probably to feed KFA a unit champion when he charges, hold on Steadfast, then 6-dice Okkam's Mindrazor onto the unit and hope for irresistible force. After all, Multiple Wounds (D3+1) doesn't mean much for models with only 1 wound. We could try to force him into making a long charge, with the risk of a multiple-unit counter-charge as well, but a smart opponent won't fall for that (it could take KFA out of play for a turn, though).

Even if we're hitting on 5s due to a failed Fear test and without rerolls (Initiative 7 for a humie, WTF?), hordes of AHW Corsairs and Witch Elves will get a lot of attacks in and could dent KFA badly over a few rounds of combat. Black Guard would be particularly effective, striking first, hitting on 4s and wounding on 2s with rerolls on both, and with no Fear tests to worry about. Sisters of Slaughter would hit on 3s or 4s (Fear depending) and wound on rerollable 2s, and would reduce the incoming wounds thanks to their 4+ ward saves. Even Cold One Knights would have a decent number of attacks against him, although KFA would butcher most of them before the Cold Ones could attack. Of course, all of this is contingent on (1) getting Okkam's Mindrazor, and (2) getting it through when your opponent would know to expect it.

If only Hydra Blade was 85 points and you could choose to fail your Ld test, a generic Dreadlord without a combined stat profile might have half a chance, or enough of one to make the Empire player nervous. It annoys me that there are plenty of all-comers counters to this monstrosity (Banner of the World Dragon, Arcane Unforging, Acquiescence, cannons, stone throwers, Skulltaker, massed Terrorgheists, et cetera) but that we are forced to rely on a big spell and/or luck to kill him. I suppose this is how Beastmen players feel...

The suggestion of using units of Dark Riders with champions to hold him up for a full game turn on each unit was a pretty good one, and cheap enough to be worth trying for all-comers lists. I suspect that End Times special characters might be banned from tournament play in a lot of areas as a result of this guy, though.

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Last edited by Haagrum on Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:04 am
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Haagrum wrote:
I suspect that End Times special characters might be banned from tournament play lot of areas in a as a result of this guy, though.


I suspect most if not all the special characters will be banned. Even before EoT came out, our larger tournaments never allowed lord level special characters. So I'm not fretting Karl. If my one buddy who own's the model wants to play him, I'll fall for that once before I just say no thank you. :killed:


Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:23 pm
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I played a game against Sean Troy (overall winner at BITS) and Hot Karl this past weekend. He rofflestomped my army, haha. He took out dark riders (managed one wound!), ten SoS who held him for a turn to set up the witches (thank you steadfast) and then promptly died. Turn 3 the witch elf horde charges him and does 4-5 wounds or something. He had already sniped the deathhag off so couldn't be safe in the challenge. After taking a load of poisen and suriving, he destroyed the cauldron and then with thunderstomp kills, the ladies lost and got run down. Then he got to charge a BT and run off the board, zapping another one with his lightning spell at the end of the game. He did earn his points back, but if I had one turn to shoot at him he probably would've given me that back. He was down to 2-3 wounds at the end of it all, so close....

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:44 am
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Curse_Bearer wrote:
I played a game against Sean Troy (overall winner at BITS) and Hot Karl this past weekend. He rofflestomped my army, haha. He took out dark riders (managed one wound!), ten SoS who held him for a turn to set up the witches (thank you steadfast) and then promptly died. Turn 3 the witch elf horde charges him and does 4-5 wounds or something. He had already sniped the deathhag off so couldn't be safe in the challenge. After taking a load of poisen and suriving, he destroyed the cauldron and then with thunderstomp kills, the ladies lost and got run down. Then he got to charge a BT and run off the board, zapping another one with his lightning spell at the end of the game. He did earn his points back, but if I had one turn to shoot at him he probably would've given me that back. He was down to 2-3 wounds at the end of it all, so close....


That makes for grim reading. To survive, you basically need to be unhittable or immune to Multiple Wounds.

One model simply shouldn't be able to do that. He even slaughters Nagash with relative ease, thanks to his OP weapon.

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:47 am
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I highly suspect top tournament tables to feature two Karls killing each other off, until TOs wake up a little and just ban SCs altogether.

Don't get me wrong, the game was super fun and I enjoyed it, but getting your booty kicked around for the tenth time in a row by the same character is going to get pretty old, pretty quick. The only feasible tactic I can think of is castling in a corner and shooting off enough wounds to make him vulnerable in combat. The Empire player can, of course, sit him back giving off 24" of Ld10, six-dicing his lightning spell, removing one unit a turn until the game ends. Along with cannons, and hellblasters for some extra flavor. Real fun to be had there.

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:10 am
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Grim indeed :/ uncomped, KFA will be impossible to handle since the empire cannons will be hunting down our bolt throwers from the get go. Even comped, he will still make for a boring game since our only choice - a highly offensive race - is to sit back and let the empire decide what happens... And hope our bolt throwers can do enough. And also... Hope that while our bolt throwers focuses KFA chipping off 1-2 wounds per turn, his pure 1+ backline doesnt come up and roll over us :s

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WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:16 am
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Would the Basilik Blade from Monsters Arcanum be of use? All attacks with it are Armour Piercing and To Hit rolls of 4+ automatically wound.


Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:04 pm
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Hellbrone should take a decent sized chunk out of him, for significantly fewer points. Maybe even have an assassin with OTS jump out to force him to re-roll ward saves...

Other than that, an 8 assassin hit squad might leave a mark. He probably wouldn't worry about leaving his flank exposed to a unit of 10 crossbowmen after all.

Beasts magic might do it. Savage beast on a CoT Lord with a lance and a buddy with OTS is going to be 7 attacks. If you can get word of pain off you'll be hitting him on re-rollable 3s, so 6 wounding hits. 4 should get through his ward, up to 8 wounds for the d3 wounds. Alternatively hevans magic might work. -1 to hit from iceshard, re-roll 6s to hit from curse and a character in glittering scale will be quite safe. If you get both spells off and get to cast them both (which isn't great odds, granted) then he's not hitting anything for 2 rounds of combat...

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:25 pm
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Haagrum wrote:
Sadly, I think the most reasonable solution that involves killing KFA is probably to feed KFA a unit champion when he charges, hold on Steadfast, then 6-dice Okkam's Mindrazor onto the unit and hope for irresistible force.


... and this is a great illustration of why comp systems that nerf magic are a stupid idea. Spells like Mindrazor are necessary to counterbalance stuff like Karl Franz.

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:49 pm
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Avoidance list will chuckle at Karl. Nearly 1000 points flying around the board uselessly.

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:58 pm
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Heartsbane wrote:
Hellbrone should take a decent sized chunk out of him, for significantly fewer points. Maybe even have an assassin with OTS jump out to force him to re-roll ward saves...


I've actually been considering to just go for a witch horde with cauldron, hellebron and an assassin with OTS... Noone can take points away from that, at least :killed:

Dalamar wrote:
Avoidance list will chuckle at Karl. Nearly 1000 points flying around the board uselessly.


With flying charges, and an all-mounted list from the empire player as well, there's any chance he will in fact catch some of our stuff... And 810 points is hardly "nearly 1000 points" :P

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:06 pm
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I say bring it, my EoT list with level 4 death, monster killing peglord bunch of fast cav and scourgerunners is ready.

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:22 pm
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Thraundil wrote:
Grim indeed :/ uncomped, KFA will be impossible to handle since the empire cannons will be hunting down our bolt throwers from the get go. Even comped, he will still make for a boring game since our only choice - a highly offensive race - is to sit back and let the empire decide what happens... And hope our bolt throwers can do enough. And also... Hope that while our bolt throwers focuses KFA chipping off 1-2 wounds per turn, his pure 1+ backline doesnt come up and roll over us :s


Except for the UK, I don't think many tourney venues allow Special Characters. They certainly won't be allowing Nagash's and Karls. :roll: I guess I should restate my position. Where I live and play they don't allow Lord Level Special Characters so I really don't care how many people buy this model. Good luck to you other less fortunate chaps. :P


Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:34 am
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Thraundil wrote:
Sadly, the wording of hex scroll ruins it. KFA is not a wizard. End of :(


Unfortunately, Thraundil is right. From the BRB FAQ:

Q: What happens if Sivejir’s Hex Scroll is used against a spell cast by a model without a Wizard level? (Reference)

A: Nothing, the scroll only works against models with a Wizard level.

!mad!

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Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:03 am
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It was a great idea though :p

Actually, on a related topic... A witch elf horde with cauldron is charged by KFA. He calls a challenge. Now, I may either accept with the unit champion OR the death hag, but I may not decline the challenge because the cauldron MUST stay in the front rank, and therefore has "nowhere to run" <-- is this correct?

Say, then, that the same situation as above happens but another character is present in the unit (e.g. another death hag on foot). Now, I may decline the challenge because there is a character available to be sent to the back. Is this correct as well? Because I can easily see it as a must to include a 2nd character in the unit, then, or KFA will be "safe" in the first combat round in a forced challenge against the death hag + cauldron, both of whom he will likely wipe out. First all attacks directed against the cauldron, then thunderstomp the DH down. WE's will lose combat and lose frenzy this way :/

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WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:27 am
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