Logo
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:49 am



Reply to topic  [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Karl Franz Ascendant 
Author Message
PhD in Dark Magic
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:54 am
Posts: 592
Location: The depths of the Black Library
Thraundil wrote:
It was a great idea though :p


Agreed. It will still work against Archaon, since he does have a Wizard level.

Thraundil wrote:
Actually, on a related topic... A witch elf horde with cauldron is charged by KFA. He calls a challenge. Now, I may either accept with the unit champion OR the death hag, but I may not decline the challenge because the cauldron MUST stay in the front rank, and therefore has "nowhere to run" <-- is this correct?


This is correct. Another character or a unit champion may accept, but if (and only if) KFA is in base contact with the Cauldron, the challenge cannot be entirely refused as the Cauldron cannot be removed from its position.

Thraundil wrote:
Say, then, that the same situation as above happens but another character is present in the unit (e.g. another death hag on foot). Now, I may decline the challenge because there is a character available to be sent to the back. Is this correct as well? Because I can easily see it as a must to include a 2nd character in the unit, then, or KFA will be "safe" in the first combat round in a forced challenge against the death hag + cauldron, both of whom he will likely wipe out. First all attacks directed against the cauldron, then thunderstomp the DH down. WE's will lose combat and lose frenzy this way :/


If KFA's not in base contact with the Cauldron, you can refuse the challenge. If he is, the Cauldron can't be removed from base contact and must therefore accept, according to the "Nowhere to run" rule. Having a second character in the unit won't change that - it's just that the other character may accept the challenge instead.

_________________
"The wrath of a good man is not to be feared. They have too many rules."

"Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good time to find out why I have so many."


Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:47 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: The Depths of Despair
Huff... That goes and makes our best witch elf booster a major liability! :( this means KFA will not need fear a cauldron'ed up WE unit... Bah. Are we sure there are no loopholes to this, other than putting Hellebron in the unit to scare KF out of ever taking that fight?

_________________
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:59 am
Profile
PhD in Dark Magic
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:54 am
Posts: 592
Location: The depths of the Black Library
Thraundil wrote:
Huff... That goes and makes our best witch elf booster a major liability! :( this means KFA will not need fear a cauldron'ed up WE unit... Bah. Are we sure there are no loopholes to this, other than putting Hellebron in the unit to scare KF out of ever taking that fight?


We could tilt the unit so that KFA makes a flank charge (or otherwise does not contact the Cauldron when he charges). That way, the Cauldron isn't in base contact, and then we could combat-reform so that the Cauldron was not in base contact.

Other than that little bit of loophole abuse, I'm not sure how we could work around it. The challenge rules are pretty clear, on my reading.

_________________
"The wrath of a good man is not to be feared. They have too many rules."

"Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good time to find out why I have so many."


Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:58 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: The Depths of Despair
Haagrum wrote:
Thraundil wrote:
Huff... That goes and makes our best witch elf booster a major liability! :( this means KFA will not need fear a cauldron'ed up WE unit... Bah. Are we sure there are no loopholes to this, other than putting Hellebron in the unit to scare KF out of ever taking that fight?


We could tilt the unit so that KFA makes a flank charge (or otherwise does not contact the Cauldron when he charges). That way, the Cauldron isn't in base contact, and then we could combat-reform so that the Cauldron was not in base contact.

Other than that little bit of loophole abuse, I'm not sure how we could work around it. The challenge rules are pretty clear, on my reading.


Yeah that'd do it... WE's still lose combat horribly, though. Unless theres some nasty magic going on. And without both frenzy and rerolls, its an uphill battle...

_________________
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Last edited by Thraundil on Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:04 am
Profile
PhD in Dark Magic
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:54 am
Posts: 592
Location: The depths of the Black Library
1. Lose combat, but reform on Steadfast.

2. Don't put the Cauldron near KFA, and force through Mindrazor (and/or Withering and Fury of Khaine, maybe).

3. Profit. Hopefully.

Alternately, take the War Banner or a BSB in the unit and feed Hellebron to KFA in a challenge (thanks to Make Way!). Put an Assassin with the Other Trickster's Shard in the unit and reveal him in base contact with KFA. If Hellebron can do 5 wounds (not unlikely, especially if you've dropped KFA's WS with Miasma or Word of Pain), you win combat on your musician, since he's limited to 10 combat res (3 Wounds, 5 overkill, charge and flank charge versus your 3 ranks, 5 Wounds, banner and War Banner/BSB plus musician). Then, do the above, but with the Witches having über-Frenzy.

_________________
"The wrath of a good man is not to be feared. They have too many rules."

"Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good time to find out why I have so many."


Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:24 am
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: The Depths of Despair
If you have Hellebron to accept the challenge, you can let KFA charge you in the front. The cauldron-hag with mindrazor alone should be able to finish him off in round two, then. This way one does not need the war banner...

In an all-comers list, spending extra points on the OTS assassin just to kill Karl-o on the off chance you meet him, seems excessive :P but I guess it has its uses elsewhere, too...

_________________
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:43 am
Profile
Corsair
Corsair
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Posts: 8642
Location: Hag Graef
Hey guys, I feel that you have a pessimistic approach due to a mistaken understanding of how challenges work. See BRB p.102.

The opponent nominates KFA with whom he issues a challenge. At this stage, the only model designated for the challenge is KFA.

Next step is yours. It is not your opponent who choses who reply to the challenge, that's YOU.
The COB cannot refuse the challenge, that's true. But the consequence is not that the COB has to accept the challenge.
The consequence is that someone has to accept the challenge.
Nothing forces you to accept the challenge with the COB.
YOU are the one who decides who accepts the challenge among champion and all characters.

Example:
COB + Hellebron + 20 WE, FC charged by KFA.
KFA challenges.
You have three options:
- accept with COB
- accept with Hellebron
- accept with champion.
The only option you don't have is to refuse, because the COB is in contact and cannot move away.

-=-=-

Assuming you accepted with champion, champ dies, WE unit remains on steadfast.
Next turn, you charge KFA on the side with a character holding OTS, making sure it does not touch the WE.
You challenge with Hellebron and see how it goes.

_________________
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}


Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:29 pm
Profile
Executioner

Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:12 pm
Posts: 188
Was reading the Anvil Tactics thread over in the D.R.A.I.C.H and there was a suggestion about a column of one Black Guard. Would this be feasible here?


Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:04 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: The Depths of Despair
@Calisson: I realise thats how challenges work. Hellebron can for sure put a dent in him, but the whole ordeal hinges on a lot of things. If we need to build an all comers list with an answer for KFA incorporated, which includes a witch block large enough to win in "normal games", include cauldron and hellebron, we're already looking at 1k+ points in one unit, to handle one character stamping in at 810 points. And since he flies, and we have movement 5-6 without option for swiftstride, theres any chance he will simply feed the witchstar some cheapskate unit, and then bypass it with his entire army, picking our backline to shreds while our frenzied unit is busy.

In addition... What you say holds some problems. If the unit champion takes the first round of challenge, KFA will win combat. We can pack in 2 flags and 3 ranks = 5 CR, he likely comes in with the charge, and +5 overkill in the challenge for a win. This means Hellebron loses frenzy, and she is down to 5 +d3 attacks. Even with OTS, its a longshot if she will kill him.

I much prefer the tactic of packing an assassin in with OTS instead. He can be revealed when needed, and can always be placed in base contact with the enemy he needs to "punish".


Jolemai wrote:
Was reading the Anvil Tactics thread over in the D.R.A.I.C.H and there was a suggestion about a column of one Black Guard. Would this be feasible here?


It would. First round, the black guard champion can challenge, and the unit is stubborn. Next round, KFA will probably kill them all due to step-up. A much cheaper variation is to charge with 6 dark riders with champ, call the challenge and hold on steadfast. This at least bogs him down for a turn, and we can buy some time to set up the countercharge...

_________________
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:48 pm
Profile
Warrior

Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:07 am
Posts: 74
Hellebron and Malekith together? Challenge with Malekith, if you destroy his weapon, profit. If you get his ward, Malekith dies a gruesome death and then Hellebron puts on her butt kicking boots. Has the advantage of being a pretty sweet deathstar to bring to other fights as well, and the two of them cost pretty much the same as him.


Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:57 pm
Profile
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am
Posts: 1042
ScottyDo wrote:
Hellebron and Malekith together? Challenge with Malekith, if you destroy his weapon, profit. If you get his ward, Malekith dies a gruesome death and then Hellebron puts on her butt kicking boots. Has the advantage of being a pretty sweet deathstar to bring to other fights as well, and the two of them cost pretty much the same as him.



Umm...what does Malekith plus Hellebron cost?


Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:03 pm
Profile
Chosen of Khaine
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:35 am
Posts: 416
Location: London
Gidean wrote:
ScottyDo wrote:
Hellebron and Malekith together...

Umm...what does Malekith plus Hellebron cost?


Appreciate this might be a rhetorical question, but if you were doing it "proactively", hit squad style, I'd say you'd want to make both flying really... in which case the cheapest option is;

Malekith (510)
Seraphon (300)
Hellebron (310)
Manticore* (150)
= 1,270

That said, if you were fielding both he'd probably have to come get them, in which case you could get away with (edit: "near") point matching at 820.

* Random note, it seems Hellebron is the only Lord level special character without a nice special name for her mount. I guess the Temple of Khaine don't get too attached to their animals.

_________________
Veysha Everkiss
Plog: Veysha Everkiss and the Clan of the Shadow Fox
Battle Reports: vs. Beastmen; 2000 pts, vs. High Elves; 2000 pts, vs. Beastmen; 3000 pts


Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:23 pm
Profile WWW
Malekith's Best Friend
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: The Depths of Despair
Hehe, two flying special chars would be hilarious :P

But! The whole thing falls apart on one note, in my mind anyway. Malekith is not guaranteed to destroy a magic item. Its 50/50 if he even takes an item out. And its 25% that he wont just die instantly to KFA's return attacks. On Seraphon, that gives KFA his points back. On foot, you will never catch KFA. And I really, really dont like hinging my entire game on Malekiths 50/50 odds. When Malekith gets his stats joined with Seraphon so he becomes a 9 wounds monster, and ALL his attacks has a 50% chance to whack a magic item, then we're talking :badh:

_________________
Name: Ladry (female)
Class: Mage (Pyromancer)
Equipment: Staff, longsword, dagger, 20 gold, insignia ring.
Skills: Power of Aqshy (2), defensive figthing
WS4, S2, T3, D4, I6.


Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:05 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software