Assassins are awesome role players

[Lord Drakon]

With the 8th Army Book our beloved assassins were nerfed. They lost their stars and got more expensive, in contrary to our cheaper and better masters. Although many combinations found to get the best of them, in all cases masters could do the same thing, but on a pegasus and with mundane armour. I believe that at the moment they are seen as a failure design as stated in the cost-effective units of Malda.

But I believe they can still compete and be useful, sustainable and worth the cost. I see them as Role Players. I think the next points sets them apart from masters

Strength
- Hidden
- Can join Shades
- Will always strike first

Weakness
- When touched, dies
- No armour
- No mounts

I think the most important aspect is that they can 'scout' with Shades, so I see them as Role players when combined with Shade units (5 - 10). What Shades mostly do is to harass by shooting, redirect enemy units etc. Now are there two 'shooting' builds for the assassin, the crouching tiger, hidden dragon and the thunderdoom or something.

Assassin (crouching tiger, hidden dragon form)
RHB, Manbane
Black Dragon Egg

Assassin (thunderdoom / fireball)
RHB, Manbane
Ring of Ruby, charmed shield, shrieking blade, dragonbane gem

As you can imagine, there is a big difference, if a shade unit from turn 1 is not only shooting 20 crossbowbolts, but also blasting fireballs every turn. While a normal shade unit might be ignored, an assassin casting fireballs is not to be ignored. The assassin himself would be safe for enemy counter-shooting, so eventually he is always going to see combat, either Shades charge or are charged. Because of the assassin the only way for the enemy to deal with the shades is to send a combat unit, as normally a pegmaster, fast cavarly or redirectors would be enough, but with the assassin the shades would win against those. So in short the Fireball-casting assassin is able to make a small shade unit into a big problem. The enemy needs to redirect a lot more than the points the assassin is worth, and it will also kill at least some stuff. This support for the shade unit from deployment can only be given by an Assassin.

For the crouching tiger assassin, the role is more based on surprise, as you can only use the egg once, but it you timed it well it can save crucial moments in the battle. Maybe you see an opportunity in turn 1 to roast a lot of enemies, maybe later, maybe you want to use it in combat etc. Also from him I see the same benefits for the shade unit as stated above, except that he can only spit flames once instead of every turn.

Both they do have mundane RHB shots for close range, able to kill some stuff like they did with the stars.

Now imagine that there are some small forests in the battlefield (which is very likely) or buildings or a gap in the enemy deployment. Shades are still our best units to make use of the terrain, and with a fire-breathing assassin as their captain they are going to to kick ass even harder. Shades are the units who determine the first turns for us, with those assassins, you can already decide what is going to happen for the rest of the battle !

So therefore I hope to show the community than when shades are used, 1 or 2 assassins can be big role players!

[flatworldsedge]

Really enjoy this. As you say, the ability to harness "scout" and thereby deploy 50 pts of nuisanceful magic items in a difficult, expensive-to-resolve position, guarded by a WS9 villain is very useful.

A few other thoughts to note for a shade assassin;
- If deployed behind enemy lines, Shield of Ptolos plus Ruby Ring would be great at forcing "proper" forces to turn around and waste time on him.
- If he's in a larger shade unit (one that can be a nuisance all by itself), maybe Featherfoe Torc if you thought the opponent would dispatch a Pegmaster-equivalent to deal with him as a speedier option than turning marching forces around.

Fluff wise it has potential too. For all of us who liked the concept of the female Autarii in the Malus books, it gives a game legal shade champion with more presence than just an extra point of BS! I'd take one of those and then explain the magic items as powers of their tattoos, etc. as demanded by your personal fluff.

[Red...]

Thanks for the very interesting post. A few comments:

With the 8th Army Book our beloved assassins were nerfed.

They were nerfed with the arrival of 8th edition, to be fair. They haven't been useful for a long time - even the manbane combination got a downgrade when it lost its ability to autokill chariots. If anything, I would argue that the new army book made them a little better, because they can now carry magic items up to the cost of 50 points, which allows them to carry armour and - more importantly - the ring of hotek (this gives witches an incredible 2+ ward save against magic missiles when combined with a cauldron of blood, making them a lot less squishy, and assassins are the only character in the game who can be in a unit of witches while carrying the ring of hotek and not risking getting attacked each turn by rabid witches: death hags can only carry magic items).

Will always strike first

except for when up against any ASF opponent, when they strike simultaneously - the same as every other standard dark elf in our army book, except for executioners (re-read the rule on ASF - when opposing models both have ASF, they strike simultaneously, not in initiative order).

I think the most important aspect is that they can 'scout' with Shades, so I see them as Role players when combined with Shade units (5 - 10). What Shades mostly do is to harass by shooting, redirect enemy units etc. Now are there two 'shooting' builds for the assassin, the crouching tiger, hidden dragon and the thunderdoom or something.

You give lots of very helpful and thought provoking ideas. However, a few comments and critiques here:
- You have to announce your assassin at the start of a turn in order for him to use his repeater crossbows. That loses the element of surprise.
- Shades are squishy and made of paper, so is an assassin. You have to be very careful to ensure that the unit doesn't get peppered to death by massed missile fire (particularly threatening given the existence of quick reforms for units with musicians), artillery, and magic missiles. The unit has just leadership 8, so even losing just a few models can lead to your unit fleeing (and as you are often quite close to the board edge when scouting, this can cause the unit to flee off the board altogether if you are not careful). With a normal unit of shades, this is okay, as it only cost you around 90 points, but throw in the pumped up assassin into the mix and you can easily over two hundred points from a single round of enemy shooting.

[T.D.]

Good initiative and discussion.

Few comments:

- I thought Ruby Ring was one use only? And the opponent won't know about it till it's used.

- Assassins can't Scout. They have lost the rule. They can joins shades in the deployment zone or scouting ones through movement later in the game, but in themselves cannot be deployed in scouting shades.

- Despite these points Assassin in Shades is definitely worth a look for the reasons you all have noted.

[Lord Drakon]

If anything, I would argue that the new army book made them a little better, because they can now carry magic items up to the cost of 50 points, which allows them to carry armour and - more importantly - the ring of hotek (this gives witches an incredible 2+ ward save against magic missiles when combined with a cauldron of blood, making them a lot less squishy, and assassins are the only character in the game who can be in a unit of witches while carrying the ring of hotek and not risking getting attacked each turn by rabid witches: death hags can only carry magic items).

I think that at the moment, assassins has not been so unpopular since long time. Although used in combat and friendly lists I don't see them in any tournament list or battle. So I would argue that although their improvements (like access to magic armour) the current assassins really need a new role to be competitive.

except for when up against any ASF opponent, when they strike simultaneously - the same as every other standard dark elf in our army book, except for executioners (re-read the rule on ASF - when opposing models both have ASF, they strike simultaneously, not in initiative order).

My mistake, I loved that fact from how they were 6th ed

- You have to announce your assassin at the start of a turn in order for him to use his repeater crossbows. That loses the element of surprise.

If you use only one assassin, I would announce him from the start, to let him be the supposed role player : Shade Captain / Commander (fireball form). For the Shade Captain (assassin fireball one) it is not supposed to remain hidden, but to play his role to empower that shade unit into something than just shades (and do damage ofcourse). So that is not a problem. But if you have a second, and that one can work better in a hidden way (crouching tiger / hidden dragon) I would save him for the right moment.

Shades are squishy and made of paper, so is an assassin. You have to be very careful to ensure that the unit doesn't get peppered to death by massed missile fire

They are, but they are also skirmishers, so they give - 1 to shoot. Now if they are also in a forest so soft or even hard cover, they will have another - 1 or even - 2 to shoot. For most this will mean 6'es to hit, and then they still have to wound. I don't see any cannons or big war machines shooting at this unit ? The risk is simply to big to not hit anything while shooting at some skirmishers, while there is a Hydra for better chances.

Magic missiles are something different, and the most dangerous ones in this case. So for that one, we still need a solution.

- I thought Ruby Ring was one use only? And the opponent won't know about it till it's used.

I am not sure, how I understood it, it is an magic item that provides a bound spell. When you have a miscast, the item crumbles and you lose it, but before that I thought you could use it every turn.

- Assassins can't Scout. They have lost the rule. They can joins shades in the deployment zone or scouting ones through movement later in the game, but in themselves cannot be deployed in scouting shades

Is this true ? I thought that because they are hidden in any infantry unit (no harpies), so could be deployed in scouting shades. I saw it somewhere backed up by a topic at Druchii.net, but I am not totally sure. If they can indeed not join the scouting Shades, it sort of lost the intention to use the assassin as shade captains.

[Phierlihy]

Not sure what the hate is all about for Assassins. I field mine with Killing Blow, a Potion of Strength, and Glittering Scales - he does great as my challenge-monkey!

[Demetrius]

Not sure what the hate is all about for Assassins. I field mine with Killing Blow, a Potion of Strength, and Glittering Scales - he does great as my challenge-monkey!

+1, I was going to suggest this build. Looks really solid.

I can think of two good reasons to use Assassins

1- Super cheap under Swedish Comp

2- Useful in Death Stars because they can't be killed via Final Trans/ Dwellers while they are hidden.

[Cold73]

role-players.... I will admit that when i saw that title i was wondering what you were going at.
I love role-play...but this is slightly different.... but i agree...the assassin has a very specialist role.

Personally I hardly use them anymore, for me the main reason to use them was to put them in a unit of shades and scout these into the opponents set-up zone.
Now that shades can no longer scout when an assassin joins them, they are not worth it for me.
I'd really like your option with the Ruby Ring of Ruin (indeed a bound fire ball spell that can be used every turn), but when in a normal unit that should in my list enter combat as soon as possible it is not that usefull anymore. Especially since our master are almost just as deadly as our assassins in close combat....and a lot harder to kill.

[T.D.]

I'd really like your option with the Ruby Ring of Ruin (indeed a bound fire ball spell that can be used every turn),

Thanks for pointing that out.

My apologies to all for the earlier misinformation.

My head was in past editions when a lot of bound spells were one use only. Currently rules are on page 37 of the mini BRB.

...standing corrected, Ruby Ring is an even better use of 25 points than I thought it was!

[Red...]

Well, to be fair, the challenge with bound spells is that you don't get a + anything to your to cast roll, so they eat up power dice and are fairly easy to dispel.

Yes, if you have an abundance of dice, they can be very good, and they do add an additional option to your spellcasting options

But, if you have other useful spells to cast using a wizard, the bound spell tends to get dropped. For example, if you have a level 4 with 3 good spells and one mediocre spell, and you roll a 7 for winds of magic - you are likely to try to cast between 2 to 3 of the good spells from the wizard (as you are casting with a +4) and not waste power dice on the bound spell (which you are casting with a +0).

[marcopollo]

If you could have an assassin on a decent steed then I would take them in a heart beat. But, in slow moving infantry blocks where their fights are picked for them, well, I can spend 165pts in alot of better ways.

[Lord Drakon]

http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=73126

Assassins can just be deployed with scouting shades, see FAQ.

So the Shade Captains are viable.

Our shades are already one of the best scouts in the game, led by an assassin as their captain, a unit of 10 shades can even be the most dangerous scouting unit available in this warhammer world. Yes it will cost 300 points, but I don't see anything in our list can offer the same threat for 300 points from turn 1 and onwards.

Compare it to three reaper bolt throwers, not always successful, and from turn 3 onwards not useful anymore. This special shade unit will be able to shoot 20 crossbowbolts on 3's + 2 handbowbolts on 2's + D6 STR 4 fireball hits for 6 turns, even while sometimes other spells are more important or even possible than the fireball, especially in the beginning a fireball on fast cavarly, archers or small combat unit can hurt. While it lacks the strength missiles of the RBT, I believe it can a lot more damage by shooting for the same cost. For the mathhammeres, I hope you can back this up with some calculations !

For the same cost of the special shade unit, you can also field one big unit of 25 crossbowmen, or two normal units of 12. They will deliver 50 crossbowboltshots every turn, but mostly on 5's or 6's. Especially in the first turn(s) they won't have viable targets, they lack high strength shots (above 3) and will more miss than hit. So I think that a shade unit of 10, led by an assassin as their captain, is better at shooting for the same cost of 3 reapers, or 25 crossbowmen. It is up to the math to decide if this is really true (I am the worst with math)

But now compare their abilities in combat. The RBT are totally useless other than shooting, they will just be killed by any scout or fast cavarly unit of 5. A unit of 12 crossbowmen will also just be hunted down and killed. A unit of 25 gives some more punch, but also to give some resistance against 5 fast cavarly. Nothing compared to 10 shades with GW or AHW (I will use the last one) and an assassin wtih KB. Not will the shade / assassin unit be able to kill all sorts of fast cavalry, redirectors, archers and warmachines. I think it is even able to win from enemy core combat units (which are not horde) because of their high weapon skill, and because the assassin will always kill and is hard to hit. Just pick your combats with this special unit careful, and it can win every combat it is going to face ! Now what other shooting unit of 10 is able to do that for only 300 points.

Because the best this of this unit is that it scouts, it can take advantage of the terrain better than anything else the Dark Elves has to offer, and threaten an enemy flank, gap or centre from turn 1. For Dark Elf lists with a lot of pegasus masters and dark riders, this is not so important, as that sort of lists can provide the same danger in turn 1 and 2. But for Dark Elf infantry lists, this unit can really benefit the list and the pressure you put on the enemy while your hordes are advancing as fast as possible.

So I still think, that assassins, in their role as shade captains (so always combined) can face a new era of popularity and find a place in our competing tournament lists. So not in their role as hidden one-shot character killers, but as sustainable empowerment characters of shade units, making them more dangerous in shooting and way more dangerous in combat.

Now it is up to the math to decide if I am right in my suggestions.

[Red...]

Huh? That's an unofficial FAQ right? If so, present it as such. Is there a formal faq ruling on this? There may be, IDK, but I know that more than a few players will not accept an FAQ about dark elves made by dark elf players on the dark elf support/strategy/discussion forum site.

You make some great points, but undermine them a bit by obvious skewing with facts and figures.

For example:
- 10 shades + assassin with rubyring + dual handbows = about 310 points
- 3 RBTs = 210 points

Not exactly a fair comparison.

- 10 shades + assassin = lots of points from restricted parts of the army book, and very few models in total
- 25 RxBs = lots of points from our core part of the army book, and lots of models so can take quite a few casualties

Closer to being a fair comparison, as the point costs are similar, but still a bit skewed tbh.

You also just override some of the weaknesses already mentioned (e.g. leadership 8 so run away easily, very expensive and brittle models, which make magic missiles and artillery strikes really nasty).

[T.D.]

I don't believe Assassins can be placed in Scouting shades. But they can be walked over from your Witch Elves to the Shades.

Regardless of how anyone wants to call the Scouting rule, the Ring of Fire Assassin/Shades approach is definitely worth exploring through playtesting

[Bloodshakes]

The fireball idea is really cool, thanks! I gonna put an assasin into my shades next time!

[flatworldsedge]

Thought it worth updating this thread as we can now taken Waystalkers and thereby get a character with the Scout ability to lead Shades. As I understand it, they can only take 25 pts of weapons (so not the Ring of Ruin). That said, other WE items could give them 2x BS7 attacks that ignore armour, but only S3. Probably not enough to make a nuisance on the level of the tactics outlined above, but maybe others know of a Waystalker build that would now enable some of the above?

[T.D.]

Waystalkers can snipe and ignore armour so that makes them helluva useful in any shade unit!

...also their allowance is 25 points of magic items ....which includes ...you guessed it ...the Ruby Ring!

Waystalker + BrewHag + Assassin + SS Hotek = Death-starring up your Shades

[flatworldsedge]

Awesome - thanks; I can't justify buying both Khaine and the Wood Elf army book, so wasn't able to check. 1d4chan implied it was only weapons. This is so much better. Definitely will add one in the move from 2,000 to 2,500.

[flatworldsedge]

Update - of course, once you can put any character in the Shades, you can then use the Lore of Shadow to swap them out. So you could use the Waystalker, then swap out for a Wardancer champion with the Shadow lv2 to give the Shades Miasma/Occam and war dances, or a Loremaster or Morathi, who would also have Purple Sun or similar to fire off across the enemy back lines.

[T.D.]

Update - of course, once you can put any character in the Shades, you can then use the Lore of Shadow to swap them out. So you could use the Waystalker, then swap out for a Wardancer champion with the Shadow lv2 to give the Shades Miasma/Occam and war dances, or a Loremaster or Morathi, who would also have Purple Sun or similar to fire off across the enemy back lines.

[Beastlord Rakarth]

Not sure what the hate is all about for Assassins. I field mine with Killing Blow, a Potion of Strength, and Glittering Scales - he does great as my challenge-monkey!

I think Killing Blow would definitely be the way to go. I've managed to kill several vampires with Empire Witch Hunters with only three attacks at initiative 4 (Armor of Meteoric Iron allowed him to strike back - but it's still a gamble). I would kill for Always Strikes First on that guy, not to mention the fact that the Assassin can appear in most units so has a decent chance of meeting his intended target.

I'm assuming that the Assassin can't combine poison on a magic weapon (I'm still new to 8th edition Dark Elves)? If he can, I would give him the sword that grants +2 attacks. Alternativley, the Potion of Foolhardiness could be used to gain an extra attack on the charge in order to increase the chance of rolling a 6 to wound.

Also, the Lore of Light spell Birona's Time Warp (I think) grants +1 attack.

Overall, I think it would be best to maximize his number of attacks, and possibly give him the Other Trickster's Shard in order to reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's ward save. Rolling a 6 to wound isn't reliable, but it isn't all that unlikely either, and could be a real game changer against powerful combat heroes. Always Strikes First and Murderous Prowess (possibly another chance to roll a 6!) also help greatly with the assassination attempt.