How to destroy all your enemy warmachines in turn 2 (or 1)

[Lord Drakon]

As I was thinking about my list with assassin, and the use of shadow magic my mind got focused on the lore attribute and the first spell. Smoke and Mirrors and Steed of Shadows. The spells are the following.

Steed of Shadows. The spell allows you to make an immediate Fly move with a character within 12”.

Smoke and Mirrors allows the caster to swap places with any friendly character of the same troop type (eg Infantry, Cavalry etc) when he successfully casts a spell.

In the current meta we face a lot of nasty enemy gun lines, castles up dwarfs who just think they can outplay the dark elves by shooting us. But they forgot that Dark Elves always have tricks !!!

And I think I found a trick to surprise those boring gunlines, by attacking (and killing) their warmachines in turn 2 ! This will only work when enemy warmachines are lined up (in most dwarf armies this will be the case).

What you need
- Supreme Sorceress on dark steed, shadow
- Master with Cloak of Twilight on dark steed
- Master on dark steed (offer to Khaine, only 90 points)
- Spell: Steed of Shadows

Assassin on Horse version


See the map, white is the enemy, black is us.

Step 1. Both armies deployed, and enemy gunline fields his three big cannons behind his blocks, impossible to reach. You deployed your supreme sorceress within the warlocks somewhere in the back. Your unit of two steed master vanguard.

Step 2. Your two steed masters march forward (in the picture its not shown, but make sure supreme sorceress is able to cast miasma on something) straight to the enemy battleline. Now cast miasma with your supreme sorceress. When succesfull, use smoke and mirrors with the normal steed master. In front of the enemy line is the CoT steed master and your supreme sorceress.

Step 3. Cast steed of shadows on the CoT steed master, when succesfull, let him fly 20" just besides the first warmachine in order so he can overrun in the following warmachines next turn. Because you succesfully casted another shadow spell, swap the supreme sorceress again with the normal dark steed master

Step 4. Enemy turn, he is getting crazy, fires all he has on the CoT master and normal master (normal master dies for greater cause ofcourse, we are still Dark Elves) but 3 ++ against shooting and magic keep the CoT master alive. He is not able to charge or prevent the destruction of his warmachines in any way.

Step 5. Charge his first, killing it, D3 wounds because of Cloak of Twlight, overrun in the second, etc. !

Result. You sacrificed 1 steed master of 90 points, to take out his warmachines in the second turn (so he shoots only once hahaha!)

What do you guys think ? Miasma and Steed of Shadows are both very easy to cast !

EDIT:
I just came up with an even better version ! This can even make it possible to do it in the first turn, but I don't know how effective the black dragon egg is against warmachines ? Haha this would be the best turn 1 ever, and it is possible !

Horse on Fire version


In both cases the psychological factor is going to be immense. To infiltrate his gunline with either a CoT or T6 mundane armoured master in the first turn magic phase ? Then roast his warmachines / archers / wizards to kill the rest of the warmachines the next turn ? I imagine that most opponent already give up after your first turn, or for sure are feeling they are going to lose this battle.

I love Dark Elves and our trick possibilities <3 This is even better than our old assassins could offer. To move 50" in one turn ? That is 2.5 further than a normal pegasus master can do! I am going to convert an assassin on horseback as soon as possible !

[Dalamar]

First plan is good, but requires two spells to be cast successfully. It's pretty hard to pull it off.

The second one won't work as breath weapon is a template and as such will only inflict a single hit per war machine.

[Tonywhatsyourname]

Quite a risky tactic as your opponent can dispel the spell. If they do that you have some characters exposed in the middle of nowhere staring straight at a gunline

Sure would be satisfying doing it though..

[flatworldsedge]

I love the thinking. My only concern would be scrolls. Your opponent gets reminded of the Shadow lore swap ability with the first spell, then may well see the second coming. A sensible opponent could well dispel scroll the second, on the basis it leaves your Supreme Sorceress at the mercy of his shooting.

[Lord Drakon]

Agree, dispel scroll could really ruin the day and you are the one losing already in turn 1.
Both spells are easy to cast and opponent should be easily outplayed with his dispel dice (I believe)

So you first have to wait for his dispel scroll to be used, before this can be a safe move.

Most of all I always like to find ways to use the unused. Especially now our dark rider characters improved so much, I see more use of the Shadow attribute, and I will even pick steed of shadows as it might be useful in a lot of situations !

[Cold73]

I really liked the idea, but having thought it over it depends on to many variables to make it work

1) get first turn
2) Getting enough dice to get all the spells
3) Hoping your opponent does not have a dispel scroll.
4) Hoping your Masters actually survice the round of shooting.

With Gunlines..that is by no means guarenteed....it is way to easy to die to that ammout of shooting...remember you only have to fail two 3++ ward saved

[Killerk]

last game I played I had 3 pegs and 7 dark steed heroes. they will deal with anything by turn 2

[Red...]

It's an interesting idea.

I think what some of the naysayers may have missed, though, is that both of the spells seem fairly mundane and un-threatening, so a player who hasn't seen the trick before may well let it through before realizing its full implications. They won't let it happen again - sure - but as a one off tactic versus new opponents or at tournaments: it could well work. I think the trick would be to cast other - scarier in theory - spells as well (if you can) and then try the one-two that you suggest.

Of course, the plan falls apart a bit if your opponent gets a slightly better than average couple of salvos off against your masters by warmachines, magic, or massed missiles (or you fail those ward saves).

[Olliewood]

you could utilize a more simple version of this tactic with a Shadow Pegcaster and get a Pegmaster into the backfield turn one by casting steed of shadow once. Deploy on the 12 inch line, full fly up with Pegmaster, make sure Pegcaster is in range of the spell with it's movement and cast away. That would get you 52 inches across the board in one turn. If you have a third peg rider you can use the switch to get the caster back to safety after casting and it will leave your second pegmaster in a much good place to flee or threaten assuming most of the shooting is going in the direction of the pegmaster in the enemy backfield.

[Lord Drakon]

Is this possible ?



You vanguard with your supreme sorceress, shadow.
You move 18" forward in front of enemy lines
Optional: cast miasma on main shooting threat for steed master
Cast steed of shadows on herself
Fly 20" besides enemy warmachines, because of successful casted spell, swap with dark steed master
Same result

So you only need 1 spell instead of two. Without present danger of master, it is more likely enemy will let you cast it the first time they will face it. Same result, only safer and without any sacrifice.

About the fact that it will be shot. What about a potion of toughness and dawnstone + dragonhelm providing even better protection ? Tougness 6 (wounding on 6's), re-roll 1+ armour save and 2++ against flaming instead of 3+ ward save ?

Even if your dark steed master eventually dies by his shooting, he will not be shooting on the rest of your army for only 138 points

[Offswitch]

This seems like alot of faffing around for what a couple of peg/ dark steed characters could achieve in the same time with no magic support needed. Just remember to angle the pegs so they can use the free reform to get in at the right angle so they can over run into the next war machine.

[Red...]

This seems like alot of faffing around for what a couple of peg/ dark steed characters could achieve in the same time with no magic support needed. Just remember to angle the pegs so they can use the free reform to get in at the right angle so they can over run into the next war machine.

How so? A pegasus master can go 20" in a turn, and then gets 10" + 3d6 (minus the lowest d6) for its charge. That gives it a range of between 32" to 42". That is, in theory, more than enough to cover a 24" to 36" gap between a pegasus master starting at the front of your deployment zone and a standing warmachine.

BUT
There are two challenges:
1 - if your opponent has positioned their warmachine directly behind another unit (more than 1", but less than the 2" length base size of the pegasus master) then you cannot charge the machine from its front arc, as you can't fit.
2 - if you opponent has not positioned their warmachine directly behind another unit, you can indeed charge them directly from their front arc. But you then either overrun into nothing (unless they have bizarrely placed their warmachines in a column rather than a row) or have to reform. Yes, when you reform, you can then charge your opponent's next warmachine easily enough, but that's moved you on to turn 3.

In order to get the charge reliably and to achieve the correct overrun, you therefore have to charge the warmachine from its flank arc. This requires a less direct approach, which adds inches onto the attack run. Let's say, for example, that your pegasus master deploys roughly opposite from your opponent's warmachine. He then has to fly all the way out to the right or the left in order to try to position himself to be able to do a flank charge rather than a frontal charge on the following turn (actually, that applies if he deploys further off to one side or another to start with, as he still has to get into a position that allows him to charge from the side arc). Triangulation / maths would indicate that this would put him a long way away from the warmachine he wants to charge, dramatically reducing the odds of you making the charge successfully on your second turn. It's doable, if you manage to get lucky with your dice rolls for your charge, but it's far from guaranteed.

[Liquidedust]

This seems like alot of faffing around for what a couple of peg/ dark steed characters could achieve in the same time with no magic support needed. Just remember to angle the pegs so they can use the free reform to get in at the right angle so they can over run into the next war machine.

How so? A pegasus master can go 20" in a turn, and then gets 10" + 3d6 (minus the lowest d6) for its charge. That gives it a range of between 32" to 42". That is, in theory, more than enough to cover a 24" to 36" gap between a pegasus master starting at the front of your deployment zone and a standing warmachine.

BUT
There are two challenges:
1 - if your opponent has positioned their warmachine directly behind another unit (more than 1", but less than the 2" length base size of the pegasus master) then you cannot charge the machine from its front arc, as you can't fit.
2 - if you opponent has not positioned their warmachine directly behind another unit, you can indeed charge them directly from their front arc. But you then either overrun into nothing (unless they have bizarrely placed their warmachines in a column rather than a row) or have to reform. Yes, when you reform, you can then charge your opponent's next warmachine easily enough, but that's moved you on to turn 3.

In order to get the charge reliably and to achieve the correct overrun, you therefore have to charge the warmachine from its flank arc. This requires a less direct approach, which adds inches onto the attack run. Let's say, for example, that your pegasus master deploys roughly opposite from your opponent's warmachine. He then has to fly all the way out to the right or the left in order to try to position himself to be able to do a flank charge rather than a frontal charge on the following turn (actually, that applies if he deploys further off to one side or another to start with, as he still has to get into a position that allows him to charge from the side arc). Triangulation / maths would indicate that this would put him a long way away from the warmachine he wants to charge, dramatically reducing the odds of you making the charge successfully on your second turn. It's doable, if you manage to get lucky with your dice rolls for your charge, but it's far from guaranteed.

You ralize that warmachines has no fronts/flanks/rears in regards to charging them right?

[Red...]

Good point - I failed to communicate my point effectively: when you overrun on the warmachine you go straight forwards, so you would still need to be positioned in such a way as to go sideways across the board rather than forwards. That would involve being in the warmachine's flank arc (even though you are technically correct that no such arc exists - you still need to be coming in from its side to overrun correctly).

[Calisson]

You guys know the trick for warmachines, don't you?
When you charge, you start your move straight forwards - not necessarily rotating in the WM direction since the beginning.
At any time during the charge - for example when arrived at the side of the WM - you turn up to 90° - for example you turn 90°.
Then you complete the charge, as long as you hit the same side that you were facing - but warmachines have no side.

With that trick, even if WM are positioned perpendicular to your starting position, you can legally hit the WM's side and overrun into the next one.

[Liquidedust]

You guys know the trick for warmachines, don't you?
When you charge, you start your move straight forwards - not necessarily rotating in the WM direction since the beginning.
At any time during the charge - for example when arrived at the side of the WM - you turn up to 90° - for example you turn 90°.
Then you complete the charge, as long as you hit the same side that you were facing - but warmachines have no side.

With that trick, even if WM are positioned perpendicular to your starting position, you can legally hit the WM's side and overrun into the next one.

Used to, but was considered gamey at my club so had to stop . But as far as rules go, there is nothing prohibiting it.

[Killerk]

@Lord Drakon - Charge rules say that during moving a charging unit the 1" rule does not apply. So as long as your models base is less then 1" thick, you can charge between units.

@Red - Good luck taking out all the heroes, as they run on their own, you'd need like 20 warmachines.

@Liquidedust - I dont get that kind of attitude, I usually say "blame GW for writing stupid rules, not players for playing according to the rules".

[Red...]

@KillerK - I was still referring to the OP's issue, rather than yours. I entirely agree that running 10 pegasus and dark steed characters by themselves would be cheesy and impossible to deal with. That's what my collector's edition rule book is for - dealing with opponents that run such builds in more....creative ways

[Killerk]

ha ha ha I personaly would use something like a phone book or chair, much cheeper..... on the other hand no I wouldnt Id take a more cheesse .... soft cover buy soft cover.