How to Field Witch Elves

[Coop]

Hey everyone,

I'm looking for some advice on how to field witch elves. I have been playing 1000 point games with my dark elves and am trying to move up to around 2000-2400. I currently have 20 witch elves and am not sure how to field them in larger games.

With no saves and T3, they are very easy to kill. So then does bringing a unit of 20 witches not make sense in larger games? It seems to me like you've got to commit to bringing a horde with a cauldron if you want to make the best use of them, but then you're taking away points from dark riders and other heroes/units.

Does anyone have experience using a smaller unit of witch elves in 2400 point games? How many of them make it into combat? Do they help draw fire away from other units or do most people ignore them if you've got a big block of executioners or black guard around?

Thanks!

[Silentdan]

A horde with a cob with demolish most lightly armored hordes. But another good way is to run them as units of 10 with muso or without and you still get 20 attacks on a 5 wide base that is immune to psychology.

[Vulcan]

If you're going to go Witch horde, go big. 30-plus with support. Otherwise you're better off running minimum units as chaff and core shredders.

[Cold73]

I usually field a unit of about 21, (3*7)
This works well for me, but it depends on your play style. I often have several units of this size running around, includig a hydra.
This forces my opponent to make choices...espcially since i run several units of Dark Riders and Warlocks.

My priority ofcourse wll be to hamper shooting...either by reducing their BS or doing damage to that unit.
My Peg Master threatens his archers as soon as possbile...preferably charing it during my 2nd turn.

[Akholrak]

As has been said, you would be better off with 2 minimum-sized units. The fact that they pump out 20+ attacks is ridiculous and guarantees they'll go dowm in a blaze of glory. A Cauldron isn't too bad an option, but I find that you really get the most out of it with a larger unit (28+). In saying that, a Cauldron is not necessary for them and is very much an all eggs in one basket approach.

[Curse_Bearer]

Probably going to echo what has already been said, but here goes. I love my ladies, they tear things up and keep on trucking. At 2500, a unit of 30 with full command and the razor standard, plus two units of DRs with shields/xbows/muso hits 625 for core exactly and I love it. I bring the cauldron of course and keep the hag naked. She is only in the list to bring the cauldron (and the pain) and must remain as cheap as possible. This helps take the sting out of movement/deploying mistakes if they get chaffed up. It isn't all my eggs in one basket, just a lot of eggs surrounded by more eggs in other baskets...my farm isn't well organized...

Anyway, that unit does extremely well against everything EXCEPT armour. I have charged and subsequently lost combat rounds against knights (even 2+ silverhelms...embarrassing) because their attacks bounce against the armour. So, avoid that whenever possible. They may win the grind against knights if it's small to mid-sized, but they will need help quickly. That's where flanking CoKs or Execs come in handy.

Alternatively I could run 4-5 units of ten, with maybe one 18 strong for a banner (swiftness!) if I wanted to go with a more MSU approach. They can really gang up on the enemy quickly, and in my meta there usually will not be enough shooting to eliminate all of the threats they pose. They will get at least one round of good combat before dying horribly, so make it count.

[Curse_Bearer]

+Witchbrew

I don't like it. -3Ld against charging the nearest enemy unit makes my back tingle. Even with a BSB re-roll nearby, those odds aren't fantastic. The cauldron has the bound spell that can be cast on one die at the end of your magic phase anyway, and it has more flexibility in it's target unit (execs, sisters, and CoKs bring great examples). Never forget this spell. Print out the cards supplied graciously in our forum and almost keep it with your lore cards.

[Coop]

Thanks for the replies! They've been very helpful. I definitely have some more ideas on how to bring out the witches at bigger point games.

[dms505]

I agree with the 2 smaller units with the number you have. If you get at least 10 more do 30 in hoard or with cauldron.

[Vulcan]

+Witchbrew

I don't like it. -3Ld against charging the nearest enemy unit makes my back tingle. Even with a BSB re-roll nearby, those odds aren't fantastic. The cauldron has the bound spell that can be cast on one die at the end of your magic phase anyway, and it has more flexibility in it's target unit (execs, sisters, and CoKs bring great examples). Never forget this spell. Print out the cards supplied graciously in our forum and almost keep it with your lore cards.

Two things:

1) You have your own chaff, and anti-chaff, to use to prevent frenzy-baiting. In all the games I've played, I've never once HAD to make a Frenzy test with my main combat blocks. With the little 10-Witch tirestrips, yes, but they don't have Witchbrew.

2) Having that bound spell dispelled sucks... and your opponent certainly will give it his best shot the round you get into combat. Witchbrew, on the other hand, cannot be dispelled.

[Curse_Bearer]

+Witchbrew

I don't like it. -3Ld against charging the nearest enemy unit makes my back tingle. Even with a BSB re-roll nearby, those odds aren't fantastic. The cauldron has the bound spell that can be cast on one die at the end of your magic phase anyway, and it has more flexibility in it's target unit (execs, sisters, and CoKs bring great examples). Never forget this spell. Print out the cards supplied graciously in our forum and almost keep it with your lore cards.

Two things:

1) You have your own chaff, and anti-chaff, to use to prevent frenzy-baiting. In all the games I've played, I've never once HAD to make a Frenzy test with my main combat blocks. With the little 10-Witch tirestrips, yes, but they don't have Witchbrew.

2) Having that bound spell dispelled sucks... and your opponent certainly will give it his best shot the round you get into combat. Witchbrew, on the other hand, cannot be dispelled.

I played Ogres first and foremost. If I saw a horde of ladies with withbrew in them, I'd hide one or two sabretusks (even behind my own unit) and as soon as they got within 20" they'd be pointing them well off the beaten path for at least two turns. If I don't get their flank, you can bet I'm avoiding them like hell. Brettonians can do something similar with cheap paladins that bunker in knight buses. Don't get me started on Vampires/Undead Legion. Controlling frenzy is immensely important, and having to rely on Ld7 is not how you do it.

When in doubt, use six dice

[flatworldsedge]

So one way not to field them...

Played a "Watchtower" scenario this weekend against High Elves. Battle report to come, but in relation to this thread I put the Witch Elves (24) in the Watchtower at the start of the game, out of range of the BSB. My opponent, and fair play to him, went and sat an eagle outside the window. No sooner had the girls set eyes on this monstrosity than they all piled out (failed LD roll) and spent the next next few turns charging about in an impotent rage getting shot by his archers.

In future I'll be keeping them in range of the BSB, behind my Dark Riders/Warlocks. They're just so ridiculously vulnerable when your opponent dictates their movement with frenzy-baiting, especially in front of ranged units.

[Vulcan]

+Witchbrew

I don't like it. -3Ld against charging the nearest enemy unit makes my back tingle. Even with a BSB re-roll nearby, those odds aren't fantastic. The cauldron has the bound spell that can be cast on one die at the end of your magic phase anyway, and it has more flexibility in it's target unit (execs, sisters, and CoKs bring great examples). Never forget this spell. Print out the cards supplied graciously in our forum and almost keep it with your lore cards.

Two things:

1) You have your own chaff, and anti-chaff, to use to prevent frenzy-baiting. In all the games I've played, I've never once HAD to make a Frenzy test with my main combat blocks. With the little 10-Witch tirestrips, yes, but they don't have Witchbrew.

2) Having that bound spell dispelled sucks... and your opponent certainly will give it his best shot the round you get into combat. Witchbrew, on the other hand, cannot be dispelled.

I played Ogres first and foremost. If I saw a horde of ladies with withbrew in them, I'd hide one or two sabretusks (even behind my own unit) and as soon as they got within 20" they'd be pointing them well off the beaten path for at least two turns. If I don't get their flank, you can bet I'm avoiding them like hell. Brettonians can do something similar with cheap paladins that bunker in knight buses. Don't get me started on Vampires/Undead Legion. Controlling frenzy is immensely important, and having to rely on Ld7 is not how you do it.

When in doubt, use six dice

Thank god Shades have Scout and Repeater Crossbows, and Dark Riders have Vanguard and Repeater Crossbows. Between those two, it's REALLY hard to keep a sabertusk alive. And never mind the harpy's ability to block that crucial spot you intended the 'tusk to travel through to get in front of the ladies.

Tirestrips of ten witches in front of main combat blocks also do nice things for me when it comes to dealing with nuisance chaff units like sabertusks.

And when all else fails, well, there's also the block of Executioners or Black Guard or Cold One Knights coming alongside the Witches you have to deal with as well. It's not like the Witches are my only threat.

And I have better things to throw six dice at than something I can get automatically for far less point cost.

[dms505]

You can't charge out of a building. . . So they can't bait them out of a building. . . Because of that, a building is a great place to have them to start at least.

Not only that but frenzied they have 3-4 attacks with 10 models, almost always outnumbering attacks on any 10 models the enemy can put against them. I attacked a building once and my opponent about crapped himself when I told him I got 31 poisoned, ASF attacks against his 20 dwarf crossbowman and then I proceeded to kill about 17 of them. I LOVE sending witches into buildings.

[flatworldsedge]

You can't charge out of a building. . . So they can't bait them out of a building. . . Because of that, a building is a great place to have them to start at least.

Not only that but frenzied they have 3-4 attacks with 10 models, almost always outnumbering attacks on any 10 models the enemy can put against them. I attacked a building once and my opponent about crapped himself when I told him I got 31 poisoned, ASF attacks against his 20 dwarf crossbowman and then I proceeded to kill about 17 of them. I LOVE sending witches into buildings.

You can't complete a charge out of a building - but you can be forced to start a charge out of a building. So if someone is outside and you fail LD, you have to leave the building, but then just stand there to complete the charge next movement phase.

Would be great to get confirmation on that from one of the resident experts!

[marcopollo]

When I started using the CoB horde, I used 28 witches. But as my horde got out chaffed, I started to split the unit up 18 and 10). The CoB could decide which unit it wanted to be in and my opponents had trouble adapting to this. But, it meant that I also had some charging issues when one unit blocked out the other and I had to be real careful and learn my charging rules much better.

[Deadsun]

You can't charge out of a building. . . So they can't bait them out of a building. . . Because of that, a building is a great place to have them to start at least.

Not only that but frenzied they have 3-4 attacks with 10 models, almost always outnumbering attacks on any 10 models the enemy can put against them. I attacked a building once and my opponent about crapped himself when I told him I got 31 poisoned, ASF attacks against his 20 dwarf crossbowman and then I proceeded to kill about 17 of them. I LOVE sending witches into buildings.

You can't complete a charge out of a building - but you can be forced to start a charge out of a building. So if someone is outside and you fail LD, you have to leave the building, but then just stand there to complete the charge next movement phase.

Would be great to get confirmation on that from one of the resident experts!

That is correct. It is in the building rules and very disappointing. Witches would be awesome for holding buildings otherwise. It should be noted though that your small units of witch elves are very good at attacking buildings though!