Magic in the End Times: strategy

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Calisson
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Magic in the End Times: strategy

Post by Calisson »

So here are the new rules for magic.
Most of it has been rumoured, but not all.
EDIT: this thread for strategy discussions. For rules discussions, please go there: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion


1. Spell generation.
- Random spell generation does not exist anymore. All spell casters know ALL spells from the Lore they are able to cast.
- Sorcerers who do not generate spells as usual still follow their special rule, but they now know ALL spells from the lores they use.
Example given is Loremasters of Hoeth.
Noting that Loremaster of Hoeth special rules gives him access to 8 signatures spells (not High Magic), it means that now, they are Loremasters in all 8 basic Lores.

The consequences are, unless I understood wrongly, that
- Malekith (DE) knows all Dark spells, Malekith (Phoenix) knows all Dark and Fire spells, Malekith (Eternal) knows all Shadows spells (at Lvl5).
- Alarielle (HE, and Avatar) knows all spells from Life, Light, High. Alarielle (Life incarnation) is limited to Life (at Lvl5).
- Morathi knows all spells from Death, Shadows, and Dark.
- HE Loremasters of Hoeth know... 7 x 8 = 56 spells :shock:
- HE Dragonmages know all spells of Fire, and they cast with +2 at lvl 1 or 2!
- Warlocks know all spells from Death and Dark.
- WE Sisters of the Thorn know all Life and Beasts spells.

- In addition, all spell casters at level 3 or more know additional spells, which cannot be dispelled.
Those superspells linked to a magic lore have been disclosed already. They are kind of Storm of Magic.


2. Winds of magic.
4D6, no longer limited to 12.
Dispel pool is the best two die from the 4D6.


3. Casting spells.
Here is the greatest change.
The basic rule is that you decide first which sorcerer/bound object will cast, which spell you want to cast and the target.
Note that at this stage, it is not required to specify if you wish to launch the boosted version or the lower one.

Then you roll a die, which indicates how many dice you can use at maximum. So the limit is no longer 6 PD, but D6 PD. (note: the dagger seems not able to overcome that limit, only Gobbo mushrooms can).
This means that the über-spells will be more difficult to cast!
All special rules still apply, and may allow you to add PD. The dagger will become a must-have!
Note that another die will be rolled to determine the limit to DD for the attempt to dispel that spell.
This means that the über-spells, once cast, will be very difficult to dispel!

EDIT: the general understanding is that once you rolled to see the maximum PD or DD, you must subsequently roll at least one die, even if it is hopeless.

P.32 "Not enough power" is still valid, i.e. a natural 1 or 2 is always a failure.
p.32 "Broken concentration" does not apply anymore, though: the wizard can keep trying to cast & to dispel other spells.


4. Casting the same spell again.
Usually, nothing prevents the same spell to be cast several times, even several times by the same mage/bound item.
The exceptions are:
- If you failed once to cast a spell, you cannot attempt that same spell again during that magic phase (regardless boosted version / normal version).
Note that this restriction is valid even for signature spells! And it is valid also for bound spells (as there is no exception mentioned for them)!
Note: there are discussions in the rules thread about the influence of dispelling a spell; I show there that the only criteria is to have cast the spell before any dispelling attempt. Dispelling does not matter.
- If you cast a boosted spell with 15+ or higher to cast, even if it is a success, you can no longer cast that spell, even the normal version, during the same phase.
- Any spell with a casting value required of 15+ or higher cannot be attempted a second time during the same phase.
- The same goes for ET spells (which are nearly all 15+ or higher, only the Fulcrum is 12+, and is limited to once per magic phase, too). These are the spells which cannot be dispelled.


5. Notes about the new spells.
- New spells are known by all Lvl3 or better from the associated Lore. These spells can be attempted only once per magic phase, and cannot be dispelled.
They are 15+ to 25+ to cast, which is far from granted with the D6 PD limit.
- There is also the Fulcrum spell, also for all Lvl3+, regardless of the lore they know and which cannot be dispelled.
Basically, 12+ to cast, raises one Fulcrum at 6", the sorcerer (including whichever mount) is immediately placed on top. If ever he moves out, it destroys the fulcrum.
While there, 3++, Stubborn, ITP, immune to multiple wounds, immune to stomp/superstomp, all other protective rules for buildings apply. +2 to channel.
Can be attacked in melee by only a single model, whichever type (I understand that even a chariot could attack, for example).
- Note that the Dark Lore superspell has 50% chances to desintegrate the fulcrum and the associated wizard... but it is 25+ to cast, and remember the limit about no more than D6 PD which can be used.
- For the Light spell, note that Malekith is on the Order side for both his armies, Tyrion on the Destruction side.
- Vortex: can never be dispelled, except if the caster wishes. What happens if the caster is slain is not said, probably he cannot any longer dispel it...
- some spells destroy buildings.


6. For Mathmammerers.
Please could you investigate the chances to cast a spell, depending on the lvl of the caster, his bonuses, and... the new D6 PD limit?
Please make consideration for the dagger, the Book of Ashur, Dark Magic bonus, Book of Hoeth?
Please could you investigate the chances to dispel a spell, depending on the new D6 DD limit?
Please could you investigate the worth of diverse scrolls?

Also, worth investigating is the ability to cast multiple times some useful spells. Which ones?

My initial understanding is that magic-users are more useful than ever, having several different Lores represented, to cast low level spells.
Death and Dark will be very useful with the ability to generate more PD!
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by van Awful »

Nice thanks for that!

Are the cataclysm mentioned as well?
I mean the fulcrum is a nice buff as it is, but the spells would be an extra reason to raise a fulcrum.

Overall im quite positive. The roll a d6 before casting os a good way to tome it all down a bit. Wont be using these rules all the time, but i think it can be good fun every once in a While.

Warlocks knowing all those spells is just plain evil :twisted:
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Phierlihy »

Any wizard can now raise a Fulcrum on a 12+. I'm imagining my Wizard flying up 20" and then place a Fulcrum right in front of my opponent's deathstar. He'll spend half the game just trying to get around it.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Diobarach »

I think the new magic rules are pretty interesting overall, one change I think was a bad idea is this if you know one spell from a lore then you now know all. Warlocks having access to all dark and death magic, loremaster of hoeth, etc. I think it would have been better if they were just left as is for the spells they have.

I guess for uncomped filthhammer, is it better to have 2 units of 10 warlocks or 1 unit of 20, if you have the character wall in the front rank of the unit of 20, the warlocks are at +5 to cast from how I read it. That's pretty nasty in addition to what they can normally do.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Daeron »

I don't understand the new rules on magic so I'd like to ask a few questions before diving into the theory.

Calisson wrote:6. For Mathmammerers.
Please could you investigate the chances to cast a spell, depending on the lvl of the caster, his bonuses, and... the new D6 PD limit?


No change in the invidividual roll chances. Cast value - bonuses = roll needed. This chance is well defined for each number of PD thrown in the roll. If the D6 limits the number of PD used, then you can bet your life on it that high cast value spells took a nerf.

The problem is... choice. It can't be calculated statistically. So my question is:
- do you -have- to use all D6 PD or are you free to choose the number of PD up to D6 PD?

We could make a model with a fixed decision strategy, for example: use as many dice as needed to achieve 90% cast success (at least). Then we can factor in the variable power dice limit.


Calisson wrote:Please make consideration for the dagger, the Book of Ashur, Dark Magic bonus, Book of Hoeth?


The Dagger effectively adds 1 PD. Unless this dodges the power dice limit, it only adds value if you can choose to roll fewer PD than the limit indicates. It also reduces your chance on IF, if you decide not to use when the cast value is met before using it.

Calisson wrote:Please could you investigate the chances to dispel a spell, depending on the new D6 DD limit?


Per dice number and dispel value, the odds remain the same. Does one have the choice not to dispel, and thus not to roll the D6? Can one choose to roll fewer dice than the D6 DD limit indicates?

Calisson wrote:Please could you investigate the worth of diverse scrolls?


Not possible for me at this point. I'd need to read the rules in detail. It's also difficult to measure the value of scrolls, when there's no real common measuring unit.

Calisson wrote:Also, worth investigating is the ability to cast multiple times some useful spells. Which ones?


Power of Darkness, Soulblight, any Vortex, Death Sniping spells, plague of rust come to mind. I'd definitely like plague of rust. It's a guaranteed spell, low cast value and spammable. Bye bye armour. Welcome RXB and RBT volley fire. It's cheap and effective. Alternatively Shadow can make a nightmare out of a shooty list.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Calisson »

I expected Daeron to take the challenge! :D

The new magic phase offers new opportunities but poses new challenges.

On the relaxed side, we need no longer to hope to know some specific spells. Now as soon as we select a lore, we know all 7 or 8 spells from that lore.
If we're Lvl3 or more, there is also one more ET:K superspell specific to that lore, and the Fulcrum spell independant from any Lore.

Basically, spells are divided in two categories:
- hard spells, 15+ or more difficult (including boosted spells), which can be cast only once per army per turn, even if several wizards know that spell. The Fulcrum spell, despite being 12+, also belongs to this category.
- soft spells, 14+ or less, which can be cast as many times as you wish, by anyone who knows it (even several times from the same wizard or bound object), until you fail to meet the casting value.
Note that if a boosted spell has been attempted at 15+, the normal version can no longer be cast.

There is however a new difficulty: the limit is no longer 6 PD per spell: it is now D6 PD per spell; and you roll it only after selecting the spell, caster, and target.
Once you rolled that D6, you will have to cast at least one die, even if it is hopeless.

Question 1:
I have many PD left. I don't know yet what will be the D6 PD limit for that spell.
I wish to cast a specific spell requiring X+ to cast.
What are my chances to get sufficient D6 PD and next to cast successfully with the most appropriate PD number (with 90% success probability),
noting that we are free to choose the number of PD, from the minimum of 1, up to D6 PD?
We need to determine a best strategy for casting spells of low or high value.

Question 2:
The choice is similar for dispelling.
I have a few DD left. I wish to dispel a spell cast with a value of X.
What are my chances to get sufficient D6 DD and next to dispel successfully with the most appropriate DD number,
noting that we are free to choose the number of DD, from the minimum of 1, up to D6 DD? Note also that irresistible dispel still exists.
We need to determine a best strategy.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Daeron »

That can be computed, but not "perfectly" because there is an element of choice left. For example, at what point will you decide to "not try to cast the spell and lose 1 PD instead"?
So, you see... We need two sets of statistics:
  1. Statistics that help us choose which spell to cast, or guess the risk of casting a given spell.
  2. Statistics that help us choose whether to actually try the spell, and with how many PD, or lose 1PD if we feel the D6 PD rolled too low.
I assume that these are reusable for dispelling, for the time being.

I'll get cracking. It should be little more than a combination of the probabilities we already know.
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Re: Magic in the End Times: strategy

Post by Daeron »

Here we go.
  • Roll- The roll you need to cast the spell. For example, if your spell has cast value 10 and you have a level 4 wizard, you need to roll 6.
  • Total% - The total chance to cast the spell, taking into account D6 powerdice. This is a bit of an optimistic estimate, as it assumes you'll 6-dice the spell whenever possible, even if the cast value is 2+.
  • 1 PD - The "1 powerdice" strategy, is a very conservative strategy. You will only use the number that is sensible to use, while still upholding a 90% casting chance. For example, if you need to roll 7 and get 5 power dice, you will use 3 because it yields 90%+ success chance, but not use 4 or 5 which only give minimal benefit for greater IF risk. Additionally, you preserve your powerdice by using only 1 PD when your chance on success is very small (<66.6% or a third). For example, if you need to roll 11 and get 3 powerdice. Using 3 PD gives only 50% chance to succeed, so you try the spell with only 1 PD to preserve the other two.
  • Safe - A safe risk strategy. This is a little less conservative. Here, we always try to cast the spell with as many power dice as are helpful, even if the chances are low. For example, if we need to roll 7 and we get 5 power dice, then we use only 3. However, if we need to roll 11 and we get 3 power dice, we will still use all 3 power dice.

Roll . . .Total% . . . 1 PD . . . Safe%
00 . . . 100.% . . . 100.% . . . 100.%
01 . . . 100.% . . . 100.% . . . 100.%
02 . . . 97.2% . . . 83.3% . . . 83.3%
03 . . . 94.0% . . . 92.1% . . . 92.1%
04 . . . 90.2% . . . 84.7% . . . 84.7%
05 . . . 85.8% . . . 84.9% . . . 84.9%
06 . . . 80.6% . . . 78.4% . . . 78.4%
07 . . . 74.6% . . . 60.5% . . . 70.2%
08 . . . 70.4% . . . 62.6% . . . 69.6%
09 . . . 65.9% . . . 59.6% . . . 64.3%
10 . . . 61.3% . . . 45.1% . . . 58.3%
11 . . . 56.5% . . . 46.3% . . . 56.0%
12 . . . 51.6% . . . 44.1% . . . 50.8%
13 . . . 47.2% . . . 31.4% . . . 45.9%
14 . . . 42.9% . . . 30.2% . . . 42.9%
15 . . . 38.6% . . . 28.6% . . . 38.6%
16 . . . 34.4% . . . 26.7% . . . 34.4%
17 . . . 30.5% . . . 14.3% . . . 30.5%
18 . . . 26.9% . . . 13.3% . . . 26.9%
19 . . . 23.7% . . . 12.1% . . . 23.7%
20 . . . 20.8% . . . 10.8% . . . 20.8%
21 . . . 18.3% . . . 09.5% . . . 18.3%
22 . . . 16.3% . . . 08.2% . . . 16.3%
23 . . . 14.7% . . . 07.1% . . . 14.7%
24 . . . 13.5% . . . 06.2% . . . 13.5%


As you can see, the safe risk strategy is almost as good as the berserk "throw all your dice" strategy. There is a notable benefit to the safe risk over the conservative 1PD strategy, but it comes at a price: the risk of losing power dice.
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Re: Magic in the End Times: strategy

Post by Calisson »

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Re: Magic in the End Times: strategy

Post by Daeron »

When numbers get thrown in, the discussion dies. :P I think that's strange. I think this should spark the discussion :)


We can see that high cast values decrease notably in being succesfully cast. So is dispelling.
While I could research this in more depth, I think it's only logical to assume that caster levels have become ultimately more powerful. Our +1 to cast on Dark Magic is going to weigh in. Considerably.

I would love to play the "cast many low level spells" strategy, to force the opponent to make choices.
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Re: Magic in the End Times: strategy

Post by Dark knight »

I think the cast many low level spells is a good way to go now - especially with lores like shadow. Another thing these changes might cause is that combos become more viable. It'll actually be quite hard to stop miasma -> shades, since you can cast both of them many times. Miasma spam could be quite brutal even without pit of shades.. Dropping the bs of shooters to 1 and then trying to drop the movement value of fighting blocks to 1 :D

What lores are you thinking on using? I think the relative strength of the lores might be quite different now compared to earlier.

Can Malekith sit on top of a Fulcrum? :D Wouldn't that completely nullify his weaknesses? I think he's the best wizard in the game now ^^
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Re: Magic in the End Times: strategy

Post by Daeron »

I think power dice generating abilities have multiplied considerably. Death Spells ftw. Power of Darkness ftw. Shadow seems very good too, but I keep thinking about Metal, Fire and Dark. Plague of Rust is probably my favorite spell. Spamming it is going to murder anything with armour. Searing Doom can topple the heaviest of armours. Because of the access to magic, I see the balance of units changing.

Take two units of Warlocks and a level 4/5 caster you should be set for an insane magic phase. Anything can be spammed. I'd be tempted to add a death sorc or a metal sorc. Heck, even a fire Sorc. Fireball! Fireball! Fireball!

Most of all, I wonder how this will affect Dwarfs. I'll visit Bugmans, to check if they opened the kegs of wine or ale.
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Re: Magic in the End Times: strategy

Post by Calisson »

Agree with Daeron about Death & PoD.

Any mage have access to 7 spells, or 8 for Dark, or 15 for warlocks, or 22 for Morathi.
Most of these spells can be cast multiple times.
The most urgent need is to get as many PD as possible, in order to cast as many spells as possible.
In this regard, Dark Lore with PoD, and Death, with its attribute, provide a great advantage.

Furthermore, Death is the best way to snipe opponent mages. Morathi and warlocks have Death, in addition to PoD!
That's a threat which is very mobile, and locks are pretty much immune to miscast.
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Re: Magic in the End Times: strategy

Post by Daeron »

Yup. With Warlocks giving Death and Dark gallore, we already have a lot of the tools we need. Hm. I think my Two Towers list has become even sicker than it is! And perhaps more vulnerable.
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Re: Magic in the End Times: strategy

Post by marcopollo »

Sounds like Morathi and/or using ring of hotek with a deathstar is important. Having casting bonuses allows to spam low level spells with relative success.

A combat durable SS with PoD spam is a great build. Having a cheap durable character wall will also be important. Fast Cav with full command and some characters allowing for the SS to be in the back ranks will be good build.

Two towers lists with a protected SS would also be good too.

Smoke an mirror pegmaster/pegsorceress spam might be cute.
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