Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

Moderators: Layne, The Dread Knights

User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Gidean »

With the new magic system (not even bothering to call it anything else since GW seems to be shoving it down our throats) it looks like the dagger will be a standard 'must have' in our armies once again. Also the Tome of Furion just became a 'grey item' in World of Warcraft. :lol:

Thoughts?
User avatar
Scyloc
Noble
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 8:56 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Scyloc »

What do you mean by Tome of Furion becoming a "grey" item?
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Gidean »

Scyloc wrote:What do you mean by Tome of Furion becoming a "grey" item?



It is a joke. In World of Warcraft items are color coded. Grey is trash and only good to vendor for coin. Not use. :)
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Dalamar »

Yeah, Tome of Furion now has no use. But that's no different from items from other armies that became useless during edition transitions (Bretonnians have a couple... like banner increasing unit strength I think).

As for the dagger. I don't see it being any different than it's now. It doesn't allow you to exceed the d6 dice cap. What it does allow you is to roll less dice than your d6 allowance and stab a PD if needed. No change really.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:Yeah, Tome of Furion now has no use. But that's no different from items from other armies that became useless during edition transitions (Bretonnians have a couple... like banner increasing unit strength I think).

As for the dagger. I don't see it being any different than it's now. It doesn't allow you to exceed the d6 dice cap. What it does allow you is to roll less dice than your d6 allowance and stab a PD if needed. No change really.


What if you only roll 4 or 5 for the dice you can use on the spell? Big benefit there, no?
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Dalamar »

Not really, because you can still only use max 4 or 5 dice, dagger or no dagger.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Calisson »

No, the real benefit is that you get more PD.
With the ability to cast many times the same spell, that's very useful to have many PD.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Dalamar »

Correct, but it is the same benefit that was there before.
I think quite a few people believe the dagger would let them go beyond the d6 PD limit which is incorrect.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:Not really, because you can still only use max 4 or 5 dice, dagger or no dagger.


Not how I read it. So you are saying if I roll a 4 on my D6 to cast a purple sun then I can't use the dagger after I throw four dice and fail? :?
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Dalamar »

If you rolled 6 dice and still failed in standard warhammer, are you able to use the dagger to add 7th die?
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Diobarach
Black Guard
Posts: 296
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:24 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Diobarach »

That's not how I understood it either, I thought dagger power dice could allow you to get the 7 die if you started with 6.

“Once the Wizard, spell and target have been chosen, the player then declares how many power dice from his pool the Wizard will use in his attempt to cast the spell. At least one dice must be taken from the power pool, and a maximum of six dice can be used on each spell.”

Likewise, the new rules in ET:K, for items that modify
“Any special rules or magic items that modify the number of power dice used to cast a spell, will work just as they would have done previously; the only change is that the maximum number of dice you can choose is changed from 6 to the roll of a D6.”
User avatar
Akholrak
Executioner
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:22 pm

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Akholrak »

So, how would this work with Malekith's Circlet of Iron? By how I am interpreting what is said here, he can't add additional dice to casting/dispelling attempts as he would exceed the number of dice that is being allowed to roll for the spell that he attempts to cast?

I'm with r530 and Gidean on this.
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Calisson »

There are two ways to read the rules.

1. “Any special rules or magic items that modify the number of power dice used to cast a spell, will work just as they would have done previously; the only change is that the maximum number of dice you can choose is changed from 6 to the roll of a D6.”
I was initially considering that it was enough to exceed the D6 limit, and thought it was really OP.

2. However, the D6 rule is a hard limit, and unless there is a specific mention that this hard limit can be overcome, it can't.
The dagger rule does not specify anything alike.
Now, after listening to Dalamar's arguments in another thread (consistent with another forum), I interpret that the dagger cannot exceed the D6 limit.
AFAIK, only goblin mushrooms allow to exceed the limit, because of their very specific writing (they are not PD strictly speaking).

Still, I reckon that it is open to interpretation.
If I were to update the FAQ on that one, I would certainly specify that the dagger cannot overcome the hard limit.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Gidean »

So you are saying the dagger cannot be used at ALL? Because if you roll a 1 on your D6, then that is your hard cap?
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Calisson »

If you rolled 1, then you cannot use the dagger indeed.
If you rolled 2, you can cast with 1 and dagger the other one. The use of the dagger is still to preserve PD for other spells, and to adjust the power to what is needed (and avoid miscasts).
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Dalamar
Dragon Lord
Dragon Lord
Posts: 9675
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2002 6:42 pm
Location: Designing new breeds of Dragons

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Dalamar »

You could roll a 5 on the PD limit, roll 4 dice to preserve one and if you don't meet the casting value add the dagger die.

Dagger is only useless if you roll a 1 on the PD limit.
7th edition army book:
Games Played: 213
Games Won: 114 (54%)
Games Drawn: 33 (15%)
Games Lost: 66 (31%)

8th Edition army book W/D/L:
Druchii: 36/4/16
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Gidean »

Dalamar wrote:You could roll a 5 on the PD limit, roll 4 dice to preserve one and if you don't meet the casting value add the dagger die.

Dagger is only useless if you roll a 1 on the PD limit.



Sorry. I don't read it that way. I've known many players that used the dagger after six dicing a spell. I think the way it is worded takes it out of that consideration.

Dagger rules:

1) Once per casting attempt.

2) After casting dice are rolled (no mention of a limit)

3) Sacrifice and gain a power die on a 4+ that MUST be rolled and added to the casting result.

All those rules seem to override the basic rule book. Otherwise they would have said may be used if you have not exceeded the six dice cap.

Even the basic rule book under CHOOSE NUMBER OF POWER DICE talks about how many you may select from your 'pool'. The 6 dice magic limit refers to dice from your pool. Not the extra die granted by the dagger.
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Calisson »

As I said, it is open for debate, as rules are not that clear on that specific issue.
Still, beware that most opponent will find it to be too OP to their taste.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Gidean »

Calisson wrote:As I said, it is open for debate, as rules are not that clear on that specific issue.
Still, beware that most opponent will find it to be too OP to their taste.


Looks pretty clear to me RAW.

Opponents felt the same about our old dagger (being OP) It certainly is no better, and in my opinion worse, that the ability of the Book of Hoeth.
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Gidean »

Btw, I wouldn't bother with the dagger now since the book is available to me . Much better.
Kerupto
Slave (off the Altar)
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:39 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Kerupto »

Gidean wrote:Btw, I wouldn't bother with the dagger now since the book is available to me . Much better.

Do I have to take a high elves mage to use the book, or can I give the book of hoeth to a dark elves sorceress?
User avatar
Calisson
Corsair
Corsair
Posts: 8820
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Hag Graef

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Calisson »

Kerupto wrote:Do I have to take a high elves mage to use the book, or can I give the book of hoeth to a dark elves sorceress?
There's nothing in the rules which would allow that possibility.
Do you know that there are even disputes over whether an ET:K army can take DE, HE or WE magic objects at all?
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
User avatar
Haagrum
PhD in Dark Magic
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:54 am
Location: The depths of the Black Library

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Haagrum »

Gidean wrote:Btw, I wouldn't bother with the dagger now since the book is available to me . Much better.

The catch is that no model that can take the Book of Hoeth can abuse it to spam Power of Darkness.

Still, the Book on a Loremaster of Hoeth using the Magic of the End Times rules....<shudder>
"The wrath of a good man is not to be feared. They have too many rules."

"Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good time to find out why I have so many."
User avatar
Gidean
Malekith's Best Friend
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:47 am

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Gidean »

Haagrum wrote:
Gidean wrote:Btw, I wouldn't bother with the dagger now since the book is available to me . Much better.

The catch is that no model that can take the Book of Hoeth can abuse it to spam Power of Darkness.

Still, the Book on a Loremaster of Hoeth using the Magic of the End Times rules....<shudder>


That's pretty much my thoughts. I can live without dark magic under that scenario.
User avatar
Haagrum
PhD in Dark Magic
Posts: 592
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:54 am
Location: The depths of the Black Library

Re: Return of the Sacrificial Dagger

Post by Haagrum »

Gidean wrote:
Haagrum wrote:
Gidean wrote:Btw, I wouldn't bother with the dagger now since the book is available to me . Much better.

The catch is that no model that can take the Book of Hoeth can abuse it to spam Power of Darkness.

Still, the Book on a Loremaster of Hoeth using the Magic of the End Times rules....<shudder>


That's pretty much my thoughts. I can live without dark magic under that scenario.


There's no need to - you can easily fit both options into the Lords allowance for under 600 points in a Host of the Aestyrion or Host of the Eternity King, while simultaneously transforming a unit of Dreadspears or Bleakswords (or Corsairs) from dagger fuel into a genuine close combat monster (assuming that POD isn't errata'd to prevent it from stacking).
"The wrath of a good man is not to be feared. They have too many rules."

"Good men don't need rules. Today is not a good time to find out why I have so many."
Post Reply