Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

How to beat those cowardly High Elves?

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Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by Diobarach »

MOD's EDIT: Thread issued from Magic in the End Times, where you will have a convenient summary of the rules.
Calisson


Well I have the full rules for magic in front of me. One of the criteria for not being able to recast is:
“A spell for which a failed casting attempt was made in the same Magic phase.”
That doesn't sound terribly convincing that your opponent dispelling your spell prevents you from recasting it.

EDIT:
From BRB:
“If the result is less than the casting value, the casting attempt has failed. The spell is not cast.", on page 72 of ipad version.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Calisson »

r530 wrote:Well I have the full rules for magic in front of me. One of the criteria for not being able to recast is:
“A spell for which a failed casting attempt was made in the same Magic phase.”
That doesn't sound terribly convincing that your opponent dispelling your spell prevents you from recasting it.
Well, before it is dispelled, it must have been cast successfully (see rules p.35), therefore it was not a failed casting attempt.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Diobarach »

I see what you are getting at, it seems the BRB is somewhat inconsistent on what successfully cast is, since:
“If the enemy has failed his dispel attempt (or not even attempted one!), the spell is cast successfully and its effect is now resolved” on page 78 of ipad BRB.

I think successfully cast would be best defined as after dispels have been attempted, because otherwise things like lore attributes would get triggered on a 'successful cast' even if the spell was dispelled.

The new magic rules in Khaine aren't consistent with when you can recast with regard to this, in the summary section it states you must have successfully cast previously, but in the next section (apparently the detailed section), it states you must not have failed a previous casting attempt. My own interpretation at this point is that an enemy dispelling your spell does not prevent you from recasting, but I think this is going to be controversial. Power of darkness would need to get altered probably to prevent it being abused.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Dalamar »

Spell is not successfuly cast until a dispel attempt has been made (or forfeit)

Also, dagger doesn't allow for more dice than the d6 limit. If you roll a 1, then dagger can't be used.
Dagger will be great to use less dice in general as it's always been.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Calisson »

TL;DR:
- RAW = dispelling does not prevent a spell to be cast again.
- I have a good feeling that RAW allows sac dag to exceed the D6 limit but I am open to debate and would examine any counter argument.

-=-=-

Dalamar wrote:Spell is not successfuly cast until a dispel attempt has been made (or forfeit).
Disagree.
BRB p.32: "If the casting result equals or exceed the spell's casting value, the spell is cast (though it may be subsequently dispelled and neutralized by the opposing player). If the result is less than the casting value, the casting attempt has failed. The spell is not cast."
And BRB p.35, Dispel: "If the Wizard was able to cast his spell..." and "If the dispel result equals or exceeds the spell's casting result, the dispel is successful and the spell does not take effect."

It is cristal clear that a spell cast then dispelled is considered to have been cast successfully, albeit to have no effect.

ET:K2 p. 8: "Spells can be used any number of times in each Magic phase, as long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful".
ET:K2 p. 9 (from the French): A spell can be cast several times as long as it is not ... a spell which casting has been attempted and failed during this phase.
The only time when the BRB mentions that a spell has failed is BEFORE dispel attempt.

It is really not possible to argue that dispelling a spell is enough to prevent it to be cast again.

-=-=-

Dalamar wrote:Also, dagger doesn't allow for more dice than the d6 limit. If you roll a 1, then dagger can't be used.
Debatable.

ET:K2 p.9 (from the French): "All special rules or magic objects which modify the number of powerdice that you can use to cast a spell work in the same way as previously. The only change is that the maximum number of dice that you can choose is no longer 6 but D6 instead."
DEAB p.63 on sac dagger states "On a 4+, the Sorceress gains an extra power dice that must be rolled and added to the casting result;"
Not that the dagger gives you no choice, the extra die must be rolled - to be compared to the D6 limit which limits your choice.

My understanding is that:
- the "number of dice that you can choose" is D6
- magic objects can "modify the number of powerdice that you can use"
- the dagger is a magic object and it does modify the number of dice actually used
- the rule says "you can use" that powerdice
- therefore, the dagger modifies the D6 limit.

The mechanism would be:
Roll D6, it indicates the maximum powerdice you can choose.
Assuming you had enough PD in your pool, you may select that maximum. Roll these D6 dice.
Then use the dagger. Assuming it provides the desired effect, you have now one extra PD that you must use, you have no choice. This extra PD does not provide you a die you choose to use, but a die you must - and can - use.

But my understanding could possibly be different if I had the English version of ET:K2 p.9, which I have not.

-=-=-

Now, if we analyse the effect of new magic rules on sac dagger, we might find it somehow too powerful - but that's another debate.
Chances to cast PoD on one die plus one sac die are 97.2%. You can cast it again and again, regardless if the opponent dispels or not, on 2 dice each time (either pool dice or sac die), limited only by:
- 2.78% chances to fail
- 2.78% chances to miscast
- running short of dagger fuel.

If the D6 limit was a hard limit which would include the extra PD brought by the dagger, then there would be a third way to stop the creation of PD:
- 5.56% chances to roll 1 as max PD, followed by a roll of 1 or 2.

So the debate is whether the sac dagg can overcome the D6 limit, or not.
- If the dagger can overcome the D6 limit, you are limited only by double 1 (fail) or double 6 (miscast, most of the time with adverse consequences on PD).
5.56% fail and 94.4% keep going.
- If the dagger is hard limited by the D6 limit, then in addition you may be limited if D6 gives 1 and your casting attempt gives 1 or 2.
10.8% fail and 89.2% keep going.

-=-=-

Based on rules as written, I am certain that dispelling does not prevent a spell to be cast again.
I have a good feeling that RAW allows sac dag to exceed the D6 limit but I am open to debate and would examine any counter argument.

Based on game mechanism, FAQing the D6 limit to be a hard limit against the sac dag seems not that much a worry, the dagger would still be considered as one of the most over powered/abused objects in the game.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Dalamar »

Everyone conveniently skips page 36 of the BRB
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Calisson »

What does p.36 say relevant?
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Calisson »

Something I could not determine:
What if I want to cast a 25+ spell, then I roll 1 PD max?

1. I have to spend that die regardless 100% chances to fail

2. I may renounce to cast this spell, it counts as failed, but I did not spend that die.


Same question for dispelling, by the way.
If my Lvl4 must dispel a spell cast at 15, and I am maxed to 1 DD, may I renounce to spend that die and keep it for later?
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by zubus »

Calisson wrote:What does p.36 say relevant?


I assume Dalamar is referring to spell resolution, P36, 2nd paragraph:
If the enemy has failed his dispel attempt (or not even attempted one!), the spell is cast successfully and its effect is now resolved...

I would think that that, plus the wording in the WH:Khaine would imply that as long as one casting is dispelled successfully, that spell can no longer be cast by any wizard that may know it during the rest of that magic phase.

Calisson wrote:Something I could not determine:
What if I want to cast a 25+ spell, then I roll 1 PD max?

1. I have to spend that die regardless 100% chances to fail

2. I may renounce to cast this spell, it counts as failed, but I did not spend that die.


Same question for dispelling, by the way.
If my Lvl4 must dispel a spell cast at 15, and I am maxed to 1 DD, may I renounce to spend that die and keep it for later?


I would assume it would follow the same principles of if you didn't have enough dice to start with, so, trying to cast black horror with 1PD left. I remember our previous armybook FAQ for 8th stating we could do this to get rid of leftover POD dice to avoid taking the hits for them.

So, you declare the spell, roll the dice, and if there you cant use enough dice to reach it, tough. The same would go for dispelling too.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Amboadine »

Calisson wrote:Something I could not determine:
What if I want to cast a 25+ spell, then I roll 1 PD max?

1. I have to spend that die regardless 100% chances to fail

2. I may renounce to cast this spell, it counts as failed, but I did not spend that die.


Same question for dispelling, by the way.
If my Lvl4 must dispel a spell cast at 15, and I am maxed to 1 DD, may I renounce to spend that die and keep it for later?



It doesn't seem to clearly state this anywhere but I would assume you lose the die and the cast/ dispel fails.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Calisson »

zubus wrote:
Calisson wrote:What does p.36 say relevant?


I assume Dalamar is referring to spell resolution, P36, 2nd paragraph:
If the enemy has failed his dispel attempt (or not even attempted one!), the spell is cast successfully and its effect is now resolved...

I would think that that, plus the wording in the WH:Khaine would imply that as long as one casting is dispelled successfully, that spell can no longer be cast by any wizard that may know it during the rest of that magic phase.
That was also what I understood Dalamar would mean, but I still cannot see how it is relevant.

ET:K2 has a condition requiring a spell to fail.
P.36 tells nowhere what it takes for a spell to fail.

Please understand that ET:K2 does not require the spell to have some effects, only to have been cast.
This is why I still don't see how possibly p.36 could affect ET:K rule about casting spells several times.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by zubus »

Calisson wrote:Please understand that ET:K2 does not require the spell to have some effects, only to have been cast.
This is why I still don't see how possibly p.36 could affect ET:K rule about casting spells several times.

This i think is the crux of our differing views. From what I remember, (I don't have a copy of ET:K to hand to check the exact wording) i agree that 'ET:K2 does not require the spell to have some effects' but it does require the spell to have been cast Successfully. Which according to P36, is defined as after a dispel has been failed/passed on.

Consider this: lore of life attribute requires a successful cast to apply, so does High Magic in the High Elf book. If what you are saying is correct, then the lore attributes would be applied even if the spells were dispelled. Do you agree that is how it is supposed to be played?
Last edited by zubus on Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Dalamar »

Pretty much what Zubus said.

To be honest, ET: Khaine doesn't help with its wording. One part saying that the spell must be successfully cast, another part that an attempt must be successful.

But what is defined as a successful attempt in the rules? Nothing.
But a successful cast is clearly defined on page 36 as spell that met its casting value and has not been dispelled.

And yes, you can still cast a spell successfully and have it have no effect.
Like casting a fireball on a unit of dragon princes... very likely not to have any effect.
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Calisson »

Dalamar & zubus, please make the effort to read the rules as written, and use real rule quotes rather than your imagination or your memory.
What you write is not true, as anyone can control just by reading.

Dalamar wrote:One part saying that the spell must be successfully cast, I only can find attempts. Please quote again ET:K p.8.
another part that an attempt must be successful.

But what is defined as a successful attempt in the rules? Nothing.
Could you please read again BRB p.32 to 35?
"attempt to cast the spell" is actually specifically the subject of p.32 to p.35.


But a successful cast is clearly defined on page 36 as spell that met its casting value and has not been dispelled. Irrelevant.
It is not the spell which is required to be successful, but the casting attempt.


zubus wrote:Consider this: lore of life attribute requires a successful cast to apply, so does High Magic in the High Elf book. If what you are saying is correct, then the lore attributes would be applied even if the spells were dispelled. Do you agree that is how it is supposed to be played? What I say is correct, it is what YOU say which is not: a successful attempt (as in End Times) is not the same as a successful spell (as in Life Attribute).
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Dalamar »

Sure thing Calisson.

ET:K page 8
"Spells can be used any number of times in each Magic phase, as long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful.[...]"

ET:K page 9
"A spell for which a failed casting attempt was made in the same Magic phase."

Pretty obvious. you have to fail a casting attempt to not be allowed to cast the same spell again. But what is a spell casting attempt as defined by the rules? Lets check the BRB.

BRB page 31
"Each Wizard can only attempt to cast each spell once per turn."

Ok, we have a mention of an attempt. Attempt in english means that it is done regardless of the result. Whether you succeed or fail an attempt has been made. So with that taken into account, ET:K specifies that an attempt has to fail.
But we still don't know what constitutes an attempt rules wise

Next paragraph starts thus:
"To cast a spell, a Wizard nominates one of his spells to cast, and declares the target of the spell."

Ok, we're not attempting anymore, straight to casting.

So the spell is cast, was it successful though?
Lets see.
Dispel, page 35 BRB

"If the Wizard was able to cast his spell (and it was not cast with irresistible force) the opposing player now has a chance to prevent the spell's effects by attempting to dispel it"

So... the spell has to be cast in the first place before an attempt on dispel can be made (this is important), and dispel prevents the spell's effects from occuring.

We move on to the next page. page 36 BRB
"If the enemy has failed his dispel attempt (or not even attempted one!), the spell is cast successfully and its effect is now resolved"

Ah ha! For a spell to be cast successfully, it has to go through the dispel stage of magic phase.

But ok, ET:K talks about successful attempts.

What is a successful attempt then? We can break it down though.

Attempt to cast a spell - Meet the casting value - not get dispelled - success!

"as long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful." - How do you define an attempt to cast a spell that was successful? To me the above is pretty clear. It has to go through the dispel stage to be considered successful.

"A spell for which a failed casting attempt was made in the same Magic phase." - what is a failed casting attempt? It is not meeting the casting value, obviously. But to me it is also getting the spell dispelled. After all, the spell is not taking effect, would you say it's been successfully cast?
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Re: Magic in the End Times

Post by Calisson »

In short:
- ET:K mentions only casting attemps, failed or successful; it never requires a spell to be successful.
- casting attempts are clearly defined in BRB, linked to rolling dice: before rolling, it is an attempt; meeting the spell's value decides whether the attempt was failed or successful.
- dispelling is never ever mentioned to make a casting attempt fail, which is a ET:K requisite.

Calisson commented what Dalamar wrote:ET:K page 8
First part: What is the only relevant criteria?
"Spells can be used any number of times in each Magic phase, as long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful.[...]"
ET:K page 9
"A spell for which a failed casting attempt was made in the same Magic phase."

Pretty obvious. you have to fail a casting attempt to not be allowed to cast the same spell again.
We all agree that there is only one criteria: previous casting attempts.
- all previous attempts to cast the spell successful => you can attempt to cast again
- a failed casting attempt => you cannot attempt to cast again.


-=-=-

Second part: But what is a spell casting attempt as defined by the rules?
Lets check the BRB.
BRB p.29 Magic summary:
2 Cast - One of the casting player's Wizard now attempts to cast a spell, ysing power dice. If the casting attempt fails, that Wizard cannot attempt another this turn." => this summary is clear: part 2 (p.31-34) is about casting attempts.
Part 3 (p.35) is about dispelling attempts. => there is no mention about casting attempt.
Part 4 (p.36) is about spell resolution, when a spell has been cast and not dispelled. There is no mention about casting attempt.


BRB page 31 "The casting player's Wizards can attempt to cast..."
"Each Wizard can only attempt to cast each spell once per turn."
BRB p.32 "if a level 4 Wizards attempts to cast a spell with three dice..." => specifies that you roll dice to attempt to cast.
BRB p.32: "If the casting result = or > the spell's casting value, the spell is cast (though it may be subsequently dispelle and neutralized...). If the result is less than the casting value, the casting attempt has failed. The spell is not cast."
BRB p.33: "A Level 1 Wizard attempts to cast... and rolls four dice..."
BRB p.37 (Bound spells): "When the Noble attempts to cast the spell, the casting roll must be = or > than 3."


Ok, we have a many mentions of an attempt. Attempt in English means that it is done regardless of the result. Whether you succeed or fail an attempt has been made. So with that taken into account, ET:K specifies that an attempt has to fail.
But we still don't know what constitutes an attempt rules wise.

Next paragraph starts thus:
"To cast a spell, a Wizard nominates one of his spells to cast, and declares the target of the spell."

Ok, we're not attempting anymore, straight to casting.

So the spell is cast, was it successful though?
Lets see.
Note that ALL mentions about "casting attempts" are found in chapter 2 or in "bound spells".
Note that EVERY mention about "casting attempt" is made before rolling casting dice; with a single exception:
After rolling casting dice, there is a single mention about casting attempt, telling that it failed if the total < spell's casting value.

Overall, it is clear that the BRB talks about casting attempts in MAGIC §2 and for bound spells, that's all.
The casting attempt is very accurately linked with rolling dice:
- before dice complete their roll, there are only casting attemps
- after rolling dice successfully, there is NEVER any mention about casting attempt
- after rolling dice unsuccessfully, the casting attempt is failed.

You can make a parallel with dispelling attempts, which are found in chapter 3.
The dispelling attempt is very accurately linked with rolling dice:
- before dice complete their roll, there are only dispelling attempts (mentioned 14 times!)
- after rolling dice successfully, there is NEVER any mention about dispel attempt
- after rolling dice unsuccessfully, the dispel attempt is failed.

-=-=-


Third part: is dispelling required to fail before a casting attempt is said to be successful?
Dispel, page 35 BRB
"If the Wizard was able to cast his spell (and it was not cast with irresistible force) the opposing player now has a chance to prevent the spell's effects by attempting to dispel it"
So... the spell has to be cast in the first place before an attempt on dispel can be made (this is important), and dispel prevents the spell's effects from occuring.
Agree. Casting is fully completed before dispel can be attempted.

We move on to the next page. page 36 BRB
"If the enemy has failed his dispel attempt (or not even attempted one!), the spell is cast successfully and its effect is now resolved"

Ah ha! For a spell to be cast successfully, it has to go through the dispel stage of magic phase.
So what? ET:K does not ever mention about the necessity to cast successfully, only to attempt to cast.

But ok, ET:K talks about successful attempts. Ha, thank you.

What is a successful attempt then? We can break it down though.

Attempt to cast a spell - Meet the casting value => that's all, folks. As soon as we meet the casting value, the spell is cast (BRB p.32). There is no mention anymore about casting attempt ever after.
- not get dispelled - success! => this is about a successful spell, not a successful attempt. That is irrelevant, as ET:K only mentions attempts, not spells effects.

"as long as all previous attempts to cast the spell have been successful." - How do you define an attempt to cast a spell that was successful?
That's what MAGIC §2 is about: you're talking about casting attempt until you roll dice. If <, that's failed attempt. If >, the spell is cast.
To me the above is pretty clear. It has to go through the dispel stage to be considered successful.
Well, actually the casting attempt was already successful before the dispel attempt.

"A spell for which a failed casting attempt was made in the same Magic phase." - what is a failed casting attempt? It is not meeting the casting value, obviously.
We agree on this one - obviously, as it is a direct quote from BRB p.32.

But to me it is also getting the spell dispelled. After all, the spell is not taking effect, would you say it's been successfully cast?
That's where you're making the mistake. You're asking an irrelevant question. Why would matter that the spell was successfully cast?
On the side, please accept my apopogize if my tone was not appropriate at any point.
Thanks for keeping the discussion rationale.
Also, thanks for ET:K p.9 quote, to which I had no access in English.
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Re: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by Diobarach »

I have another question, how do you resolve a spell like word of pain being cast on a unit multiple times?

Is it

A) Cumulative
B) Last one cast
C) Something else?

Just curious, I guess if it is cumulative, you can grind a unit's WS down to 0 (no limit of 1 for WoP) and with Power/Dispel discrepancy I don't see why you can't brute force the spell through. Opponent would need to hope you botch the casting attempt.

Also, the power dice restrictions probably need clarification, it's not the End Times but the 'VIndicative Glare Spamming Via Mushroom Popping Night Goblin Shamans Time', VGSVMPNGST for short.
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Re: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by Dalamar »

Hex spells are cumulative so yes, WoP just got quite a bit stronger.

I don't know how magic mushrooms work in this edition so I can't comment.

@Calisson
after some consideration I must agree with you, casting attempt is well defined by the rules and leaves little to debate. My interpretation hinged on unclear definition of casting attempt but it is pretty clear.
So some spells can indeed be deadly and you will have to fight tooth and nail to stop them until the casting level is not met (or frog the wizard!)
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Re: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by Calisson »

Thanks Dalamar! :D

-=-=-

Mushrooms are clearly stated NOT to be powerdice and don't cause miscasts. They auto add one die to the total, but if that die is 1, it makes the spell fail.
That would work very much like if mushrooms added a random magic level to the total.
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Re: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by Taijushue »

wtih the new everyones a loremaster rule, does this mean that anyone carrying the ruby ring a fire loremaster or are bound spells exempt from this rule?
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Re: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by Dalamar »

Items with bound spells don't make a character carrying them a wizard, so they won't suddenly get better.

Lore of fire got a lot better though what with its easy to spam spells and a cumulative bonus to cast them from the attribute.

"So i can use only 1 die for this fireball... ok 1d6 plus 10d3 from the accumulated attribute"
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Re: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by zubus »

Calisson: i was predicating my view/opinion on the same basis as Dalamar, and like him indeed concede to your wisdom.
Although i was also hoping you weren't correct due to how powerful some spells will be now you can just cast them almost indefinitely. Hex scrolls for everyone i guess!

Also, Dalamar, i just checked and Lore of Fire is a single d3 total, not per previously successful spell. Still very useful now though
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Rork
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Re: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by Rork »

You're not incurring the wrath of the admins already are you, zubus? :P

Perhaps the new magic rules will mean my dedication to fire magic will finally pay off. Or I'll just waste power dice even more...
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Re: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by General Kael »

This game messes with my head.

"so the attempt to cast was successful, great I cast it."

"No it wasn't successful yet, I have to dispel it first."

"Ok so if you dispel it, it wasn't cast."

"Not exactly. It was cast, just not successfully cast. Your attempt was successful, but the spell wasn't successfully cast"

"Ok I think I get it. You dispelled it so I failed to cast the spell on you"

"Well that's not quite right either. You didn't fail to cast the spell. You successfully attempted to cast but failed to successfully cast it"

"I hate you" !lol!
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Calisson
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Re: Magic in the End Times: rule discussion

Post by Calisson »

@ General Kael
Compliments, you understood very accurately all the finesses.
Winds never stop blowing, Oceans are borderless. Get a ship and a crew, so the World will be ours! Today the World, tomorrow Nagg! {--|oBrotherhood of the Coast!o|--}
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