Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

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Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Deadsun »

A perfect storm of the increased lords allowance and seeing the art for storm of magic again has awakened a desire to build and convert up what is possibly a very silly unit: a supreme sorceress riding a manticore.

Im well aware of the down sides, pretty much no armour, the manticore wants to be in combat to work best and uncontrollable makes it vulnerable to being bated off, while the sorceress is a weedy little thing with 3 unarmoured toughness 3 wounds. Still im thinking this could be a very fluffy unit, a good modelling project that could surprise people and raise a few eye brows when people see it so im going to put it together and run in a few games to see how it works.

This brings me around to how would i get such a unit working. At the moment in thinking Level 3 with Beasts (useful spells in combat with a bonus to cast upon herslf) and possibly the black amulet (protection and chance of causing extra wounds in combat challenges). I'm uncertain about the rest of the kit, I will probably drop on a very cheap magical weapon, but am thinking as a second lord choice its worth keeping the cost down and given the innate vulnerability of the model in not sure sinking more points will make the model better.

I would probably try to field this unit in 2k+ in the context of a list with lots of other threats, possibly monsters, cavalry and chariots.

My gaming group is dominated by vampires, chaos warriors and other elf armies, but barring a few excetions most players (by which i mean the two high elf players) like their games to be close run but are not too high end competative and optimised net list are a rarity.

Anyway besides 'this will never work' type comments does anyone have any thoughts on this unit, kit or how to use in the game?

cheers

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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Calisson »

I will comment using the new magic rules from ET:Khaine.

Beasts: you will know all spells plus two.
- Attribute: Casting difficulty is reduced by 1 when casting on herself riding a manti, which is a good help when trying to spam spells.
- Signature: Cast on 10+, you get a bonus of +5. 85% chances to cast, assuming you cast 2 dice whenever possible. 1/6 of the time, only 1 die will be available, 2/3 miss. The effect is cumulative until you reach the max of S10 and T10 until the start of the next magic phase. :twisted:
- #1 magic missile cast on 5+, i.e. cannot miss unless the single die gives 1 or 2. You can cast it again and again until it fails. :twisted:
You can extend the 2D6 S2 hits to 48", casting on 8+ with 2 dice, helped with your +4 bonus, it will fail only 13% of the time. That should help you to get rid of these annoying baiters.
- #2 pelt cast on 8+ with +4 to cast is worth casting once or twice, on a single die.
- #3 amber spear cast on 9+ with +4 to cast is easy to cast with 2 die. You can spam it. Note that if you go for the 15+ version, you can only attempt it once, so I would recommand not to do it ever.
- #4 curse cast on 10+ with +4 is worth casting especially in the melee you're in. Can be spammed, with more than 80% chances of success.
- #5 savage beasts can be cast at 10+ several times on the sorceress! +3A and +3S, can be cast several times up to the max of 10! :twisted: Would be real fun.
- #6 Kadon is useless, except when Manti has died. can be attempted only once per turn, at 16+ with +4, i.e. 55% chances if you throw all d6 PD you can get.
- ET:K superspell Murder of Crows is 15+, i.e. can be attempted only once per phase. 60% chances if you throw all d6 PD you can get. Makes a vortex which cannot be dispelled except by your sorceress. Large template, moving arty die x 3". Any model under it suffers S3 hit. IMO not that fantastic, but can be fun.
- ET:K Fulcrum would be situational. 12+ to cast, with +4 makes it 70% chances to pass, cannot be dispelled except if you move away, so it will force you to remain still... that would be a problem with your frenzy, but you have a high Ld. The sorceress (including Manti) is immediately placed on top. While there, 3++, Stubborn, ITP, immune to multiple wounds. +2 to channel. Can be attacked in melee by only a single model.
Once there, you're pretty much immune to anything and you're able to spam magic missiles.

Summary:
Access to high T, high S and many more A will make your sorc a fantastic killing machine.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by T.D. »

Black Amulet and a defensive magic weapon like Warrior Bane, Shrieking Blade or Fencers Blades would be the way to go. Also Crown of Command if you can fit it.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by flatworldsedge »

Love the idea from a modelling point of view. The Chaos Manticore model is awesome, and all that rugged madness and muscle would look incredible with a sleek sorceress on top. The Black Amulet + Fencer's Blades build with Beasts (or Life?) would be the route I'd go, and I imagine she'd be great fun to play.

You could always buy a cheap-ish Pegmaster bodyguard for her, but that kind of dilutes the purity of vision and makes it less fun. Would be awesome to field her alongside a Manticore mounted Hellebron; I imagine it would feel curiously similar to playing Skaven.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Deadsun »

Thanks for the responses guys. They are really useful and informative. I have just ordered the bits to get cracking at making this mini and will be sure to add to this thread to give feedback on how it goes:)
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Lord hajjij »

I know this is an old thread but...

I use a couple main variations of this character in almost all my armies recently. Takes some finesse to use but that's what makes it fun. There are some threads I've created in the army lists section that have some armies using her.

Sorry for the long post here but I have a lot of say on this subject!

Supreme Sorceress
Level 3; Lore of Beasts
Biting Blade; Scroll of Shielding; Black Amulet; The Other Trickster's Shard
Manticore w/ Blind Fury

(Run with a scroll caddy, often Level 1 w/ Heavens or Life + 5 Doomfire Warlocks)

Supreme Sorceress
Level 4; Lore of Life
Dispel Scroll; Talisman of Preservation; Ruby Ring of Ruin
Manticore w/ Iron-hard Skin

(Run as the solo caster, or with a Level 2 Dark w/ Tome of Furion if not using Khaine magic)


Both versions are used quite differently. I tend to use them both more aggressively than you might think, because in my experience they are pretty survivable. Riding a Manticore is like a 3+ ward against shooting. (a direct cannonball hit will only have a 1/12 chance of doming your Sorceress) At the end of the day I'm going to take chances because it's a 500 point model and I don't want it hiding all day. Not to say that I won't hide her if I need to though. But I'd rather hide her in easy combats!



With the Beasts build, and beyond the obvious buffing with Wildform, I use her like a queen piece in chess. Even without Savage Beast, the model is quite good at clearing skirmishers or small throw away units like 10 man gnoblars w/ trappers (hi thunderstomp) or 5 man fast cav units, and I'll often spend the first couple of game turns trying to clear chaff. With Savage Beast, she can handle small heavy cav units, single Beasts of Nurgle, and will obliterate Spirit Hosts w/ her magic weapon.

Flock of Doom can take off some wounds from warmachines just as easily as a Doombolt. (combo with Dark Rider + Shade shooting) Curse of Anraheir can really help you control the battlefield and keeps her safe(r) from BS based shooting. Amber Spear has obvious uses, and it helps you're on a Large Target that flies.

Also, Beasts is a Lore where you might not always have something great to cast. This is where having Doomfire Warlocks works well, since they have useful spells to use dice on if you don't have anything in particular to cast in Beasts.

Terror is actually useful on a model like this. You can charge something and be fine with it just running away.

Buff your other characters. I run a Peg Master w/ Cloak of Twilight in this army and Savage Beast on that guy is dirty.

I will also use her in Close Combat in later game turns to try and assassinate characters. (hear me out before you turn up your nose) First, you have Killing Blow + OTS on a Manticore that has 5-7 attacks, and you could potentially get lucky. (decent chance of taking out many BSB builds even without KB) Secondly, you have Savage Beast and the Black Amulet + OTS if you can get her into a challenge. I always run Champions in my Dark Riders/Shades/Warlocks so I can combo charge with them and accept a challenge if I'm afraid of having some unit champion screw up what I'm trying to do. Don't forget to make the character test for Fear! It really, really helps especially if they have the Curse on them!

Finally, the biggest trick in the book here is that I have Blind Fury on the Manticore, a 4+ ward that bounces wounds, and often try and toss a Pan's Pelt on my sorceress. What this does is gets the opponent to target the Manticore with his attacks. I'm actually TRYING to get them to waste their attacks killing the Manticore because then I can follow up with a hopefully boosted Transformation of Kadon when the mount dies and I'm on foot.*

*Note that if you're using this tactic, I recommend not charging a unit but instead, moving the Sorceress right in front of a unit baiting a charge. (cast Curse of Anraheir if you can too) The reason for this is because if you charge and your Manticore dies that turn, it's now the opponent's turn and you can't cast Transformation. You want them to charge, kill the beast, then immediately cast Transformation in the next combat phase. (your turn)


Using the Life build, she still works well to clear chaff (casting Shield of Thorns on yourself is actually great for when you're in combat with chaff) but I mostly play more conservatively. Where Beasts gives you a lot to be able to cast in combat, Life includes The Dwellers Below and I usually am trying to get that off every turn and so don't want to be in combat. I'm a lot more survivable with Earth Blood, (for the Manticore) Flesh to Stone, and the Lore Attribute. So it's a bit safer to be out of combat. This is part of the reason why I swap Blind Fury for Iron-Hard Skin, since I care more when my Manticore dies.

I normally will play this build with a horde of witch elves because I can support that unit with Flesh to Stone and Regrowth. I'll fly around trying to clear chaff and cast to regenerate lost wounds after combat. I won't typically challenge characters like I do with the Beasts build.

You might consider bringing her with a Crown of Command and try and use it to tie up crappy tarpits like Goblins/Skaven. With Earth Blood, Flesh to Stone, and Lifeblood, you will most likely last quite a while against a unit like that. It may not be your main objective in the game, but the real point of taking this model is flexibility and it never hurts to add another potential role if you can.

Generally, I use the Life build less often and don't like it as much because it isn't as flexible overall. Also, I don't really like the Lore as much.



Hope this gives you some ideas. Good to see someone else using this setup! Let me know if you want me to post my full 2000 point army. I also have a thread in the painting/modelling forum about this. I'm using a witch elf with the head from the Dragon kit and some other bits. When it's done I'm going to post it in there.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Amboadine »

I think we can forgive a little threadomancy when the quality of the addition to the thread is as well thought out and valid.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Calisson »

Thanks for the threadomancy revival.
Lord hajjij wrote:a direct cannonball hit will only have a 1/12 chance of doming your Sorceress
BRB p.105: "If you use a weapon or spell that uses a template against a monster mount, both the riders and the mount are automatically hit if the monster's base is touched by the template (note that this includes bouncing cannonballs!)."
Let's say, 66.67% chances to hit.
Wounds on 2+, d6 wounds kill on 3+, 4+ save, I find one cannonball has 18.5% chances to kill the sorceress, i.e. 1 out of 5.4 times.

Looks like to be fun!
Apreciate the "tested in combat" testimony, about this combo that most would discard as too fancy without giving a try.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Ajattaro »

I must say that I have used about the same combination too with Beasts. Dark magic has been ok too, but Beasts has more and better combat buffs, but Dark is way more all rounded. Actually two games I tried mantiSS with Dark were the best results with dark magic I've had. Tried Death once to kind of power balance the model by having superb lore, but those two dont do well together. Death is much better on pegasus or DS. also for magic, warlocks are (of course) really good with mantiSS. Have not thought about heavens caddy, but its good addition too, heavens sig and ability to take another arcane good.

There has been some talk about how effective dragon SS is, but in my opinion mantiSS is way more points efficient, even though dragon makes more powerful upgrade. But you will be killing chaff most of the time, and dragon is bit overkill though.

Only thing you need to worry about is target saturation. I fielded dragon lord and hydra in other list and itt was great. Always habe enough stuff to take out war machines. I always take small units of shades with my monster characters to pick them up into safety if their mount dies.

i have never been fan of blind rage. Never used it though. You combo looks awesome Thraundil, but really risky
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Praetorian1979 »

As for the model, before you go and buy the Chaos Lord on Manticore of the GW site.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources ... eNEW01.jpg

There is also a rather neat model on the raging hero site.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0034/6 ... 1292462718

When I will be getting a manticore model, I am highly leaning toward the Raging Hero one, just because it is different.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Teowulff »

Praetorian1979 wrote:As for the model, before you go and buy the Chaos Lord on Manticore of the GW site.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources ... eNEW01.jpg

There is also a rather neat model on the raging hero site.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0034/6 ... 1292462718

When I will be getting a manticore model, I am highly leaning toward the Raging Hero one, just because it is different.

I agree the Raging Heroes version is by far the best looking manticore at the moment.

Although I saw a converted DE one on CoolMini that made me rethink my DE manticore .. personally thinking about making a Hellebron on Manticore, just because I can (for fluff/fun).
http://www.coolminiornot.com/95572?browseid=11412177
http://www.coolminiornot.com/96499?browseid=11412177

Also I think a converted HE white lion is a neat and pretty looking solution:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/226122?browseid=11412177
Perhaps I may steal this isdea and use a few lions from the Shieldwolf kickstarter to convert to manticores ..
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Lord hajjij »

Thanks for the correction Calisson. I always play that rule incorrectly it seems...

Dark Magic is something I've tried a couple of times, but while it's a lore that while well rounded, I found that it doesn't boost survivability in combat as well. Yes, Word of Pain is very, very good, but it is more than likely going to be the target of the majority of the opponent's dispel dice if you get into a combat. With Beasts, they may have to choose between dispelling Curse, Pelt, Wildform or Savage Beast. With Life, they'll have to decide between many augments that will all give a wound back if successful. In other words, in this case they fact WoP is a "do everything spell in one" actually hurts it because your main wizard is in combat and there isn't much else threatening for her to cast.

I do really like the Dark Lore, despite it's criticisms, but much prefer having it on a level 4 mounted in a mobile unit or as a level 2 on a Pegasus using the Tome of Furion. (if not using Khaine magic) But that's a different topic. What Beasts/Life gives you is really survivability in combat, which you will need if you're using this model. I've also considered Shadow. People usually will concentrate on dispelling Pit/Mindrazor/Withering, so a nice Enfeeble/Miasma could really help her out. In any case, whatever lore you choose, if you aren't willing to get this chick into combats, don't bother with the Manticore.

Regarding a Dragon Sorceress, I think it's certainly viable. I agree with you that most of the time it's overkill. However, there are certain things that are appealing, first and foremost being a breath weapon. But at the end of the day I don't think the role changes that much. Overall I think this setup is best left for an Archmage on Star Dragon.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by anglais »

I am playing Manticore Supreme Sorc under ETC rules.
It works. Still, Peg is better for mobile casting platform, Dragon is better if you use it as a fighting unit.
the main problem that I see in Manticore is Uncontrollable special rule. Mandatory charge of the closest enemy unit is very bad.
thus Manticore is a fair trade of army choices, nothing more nothing less.
in terms of the lore, basically everything is better than Beasts. Metall/Dark/Death. Probably Heaven and Light, but definitely not Beasts IMO. I can elaborate this, if needed.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Marchosias »

Do it please. I was playing a beasts dragon sorceress a while ago together with three pegasus characters and a unit of warlocks (it was allowed under Draft 1) and she was performing nicely. It was perhaps not the strongest lore possible but I do not think it was really lacking. I only managed a few games though so I might have missed some foes where the weaknessess of beasts magic would show.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Lord hajjij »

Please elaborate on your lore choices. I'm most likely going to straight up just disagree with you but a little debate never hurt. To me it's:

Tier 1 = Beasts/Life because of survivability gains usable in combat
Tier 2 = Dark/Light/Shadow because of defensive augments/hexes

It's not to say that those other lores are "garbage" and "useless", and it's true that a lot of it depends heavily on army composition, but as of now I just don't see how Heavens or Death would be great choices. (unless there is some kind of Large Target LOS stuff that I'm not understanding/playing correctly allowing targeting of DD spells at other units while you're in combat)
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by anglais »

no problem gents.
the main problem of Beasts is no damage. Amber Spear is good, but it is no brainer for dispelling. Transformation is wasted on the mounted char. Thus by taking beasts you are playing with 6 potential spells w/o the best one and need to make effort in other phases to kill something.
I usually do not have problems with killing stuff in HTH, as DE exel there. thus Savage Beast and Pelt are overkill for me, especially as I need to commit my characters before knowing the number of power dice. Thus I prefer to wait for another turn and shoot/maneuver/magic rather than commit my characters in combat that is too tough for them w/o buffs
Curse is allright, still it works best for big units and now we are playing herohammer.
Wildform and crows are allright but nothing special.

Life has the same issues as Beasts. Throne is almost essientual and the lore lacks damage. Killing t5w4as4 is not a hard task in modern Warhammer.

Heavens is God sent if you play defensive with RBTs. Convergence makes them really good. and the lore is very cheap even if DD spells are only d6 and has some really dirty tricks people do not dispell if you have warlocks. Comet and CL are not magical missiles, so LOS is not important.
Death is something that IMO is not disputable best lore, as it is very cheap for mounted flyer and allows you a lot of options against any opponent.
Dark/Metal are of the same quality, something is better dependant on lodestones/BoWD/dragonhelms.
Light and Shadow quality depends on the other army choices. Light is better for HTH lists, shadow for shooting lists.

there are other arguments dependant on ETC/no ETC, but anyways I play Beasts only with a sorc on foot. As having mountain Chimera in the combat is something that makes this lore shine.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Lord hajjij »

I'm curious why you are taking a Manticore and worrying a lot about magical damage output. If you want a spam caster who can murk units and characters in the traditional sense, why not put her on a Dark Steed or Pegasus for way cheaper? Or, in the case of Heavens, keep her on foot and put her in bubble range of your RBT, instead of paying for a flying beastie?

I do understand why you wouldn't want to read my massive wall of text up there, but to me the Manticore changes her role away from a character who just spams big damage into people, and into a multi-purpose buffer/de-buffer with some threat in combat, especially against things like:
1) Chaff such as Skirmishers and Fast Cav
2) Characters in units (mostly in the late game, and mostly either hero level characters such as BSBs or Wizards)
3) 5 man heavy/medium Cav units
4) Chariots (as long as you're charging)
5) Ethereal

You want to be able to survive in those combats, and that's where things like Pelt/Savage Beast will help. (the latter to hopefully help you wipe the unit before the can strike)

And again, a lot of what I'm doing is specific to her load out (Biting Blade, Scroll of Shielding, Black Amulet, The Other Trickster's Shard, and Blind Fury on the Manticore) and probably also my meta which typically is a 1-2 very deadly units with a lot of chaff.

For example, I could charge her into 5 man Seeker of Slaanesh units with those stupid Beguilement Heralds and kill the Herald outright in a challenge thanks to 5-7 Str5 Killing Blow attacks that force her to re-roll wards. Or, as I outlined above, because of Blind Fury and my 4+ ward, I often bait people into attacking and killing the Manticore, dropping me onto foot and enabling me to cast Transformation of Kadon if I can.


All of that being said, when I get home I'm going to re-read and hopefully understand better the rules around DD spells and Large Target LOS. If I can in fact cast DD spells at units while I'm in combat with a different unit, then that changes things a bit for me.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by anglais »

Manticore is a flyer and a bunker. mage on foot is easily hunted. horse mage needs a babysitter unit that costs more than 150 points and pegasus/dragon while being betther are both comped under ETC. Also, moster with a rider does not give up points that easy as you need to kill both.

I agree with your summary on possible targets. My argument is that all of this doable without Beasts with the same quality and in more phases.
Supreme Sorceress: Cloak of Twilight; Dispel Scroll; Obsidian Trinket; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Death; Black Dragon; General 610
Supreme Sorceress: Talisman of Presetvation; The Other Trickster's Shard; Level 4 Wizard; Lore of Dark Magic; Black Dragon 580

these are my dual dragons sorc for 2400. any can be mounted on manticore, I am not sure whether magic weapon is needed while I like the combo of CoT and relic sword.

and yes, you can cast DD while being in combat. as you need only arc, not LOS. what is prohibited is casting MM from and into the combat AND casting DD into the combat.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Lord hajjij »

Manticore is a flyer and a bunker. mage on foot is easily hunted. horse mage needs a babysitter unit that costs more than 150 points and pegasus/dragon while being betther are both comped under ETC. Also, moster with a rider does not give up points that easy as you need to kill both.


Well put. I can get down with this. It really is quite like a bunker.


My only question is why you'd go with Cloak of Twilight on one of your Sorceresses. Seems like a 6+ Armor and no Ward in combat (dragon is I3, so most likely couldn't wipe a unit before they strike) isn't a great idea.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by anglais »

My approach is that anything you charged in with is already dead. Thus if it survives - it is fine and I do not care about sorc at all.
So yes cot is all right
If they go for the Mage dragon keeps the points. And vise versa
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Lord hajjij »

I'm going to be giving your strategy (with a slight twist) a shot this weekend as I'm slated to play a couple 2000 point games.

Supreme Sorceress, Level 4 - Lore of Undeath
Golden Sigil Sword; Dispel Scroll; The Other Trickster's Shard; Talisman of Preservation
Manticore; Iron-Hard Skin

Been dying to try the Lore. Equipping with Golden Sigil Sword so she can re-roll hits against many Lords in hopes of landing a Hand of Dust.
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by anglais »

I am curious abouth the results :?:
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Lord hajjij »

Right, I meant to type something up here. Honestly I enjoyed playing it, (3 games) but I felt like Lore of Undeath summoning spells were quite hard to cast overall. As such, in my opinion it is probably suited more to a hero caster who can take the signature spell and just 4/5 dice the 1st and 2nd level of Ryze to raise zombie blocks where needed. Force the opponent to choose between dispelling that and whatever spells the lord level caster was going with. That's really the only summoning spell that I found myself casting at all. Maybe with more patience I could work the lore better - looking back on it, there may have been a couple situations where summoning a Cairne Wrath or Spirit Host would have been useful.

The other, non-summoning spells were nice. Hand of Dust worked well and the scream spell was helpful a few times. I think if I were to do this again I'd change the kit slightly and go with the Black Amulet again. All in all, I liked the slightly more conservative approach with the priority on casting spells and thinking of the Manticore as a "flying bunker". Well said again on that. Clicked for me, and feel like this model is even more tactically diverse now.

I think the ideal use of the Lore of Undeath would be if you were playing Khaine Magic and could rock a level 1 mounted on a dark steed w/ Golden Sigil Sword. Cheap/Expendable, and knows all the spells so becomes a triple threat for summoning/assassination/screaming chaff.
So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

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Diobarach
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by Diobarach »

I'm taking a supreme sorc on manticore for swedish comp (with hills, buildings blocking los) and I can't seem to settle on a magic lore. Beasts is hit or miss as stated but is uncomped, metal I don't like since I feel it is too match-up dependent. Shadow and Dark are better but very heavily comped and Life is no fun (no pun intended). I'm thinking Heavens maybe but having to park next to RBT somewhat diminishes manticore's role.

Anyone feel dark or shadow is worth the comp hit in this case?
anglais
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Re: Beasts Supreme Sorceress riding Manticore

Post by anglais »

Lord hajjij wrote:Right, I meant to type something up here.
thanks for the feedback, very interesting.
I like to win, but not by playing the limit of the rules
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