Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

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Thraundil
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Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Thraundil »

So, I was reading the rules over one more time. There seems to be a way to make Malekith pretty much unkillable.

So he's already a 10W, T6 dragonrider who cant be KB'ed or multiwounded, right? But what is his weakness? Magic missiles and the like, against which he has zilch.

Unless... He summons an Arcane Fulcrum, a piece of terrain, which any wizard of lvl 3+ knows as an End Times spell. Its cast on a 12+, and with Malekith being lvl 5 and adding a bonus dice (note: bonus dice, not power dice!!!) to a failed attempt, even with max 1 power dice on the d6 you might still get it off. And it can't be dispelled.

Know, lets look at this little piece of work. The rules state that a) you must use the GW model for an arcane fulcrum from the citadel scenery range and b) the wizards model must be able to fit on top of it. Now, I dont have the actual model, and I actually cant find the "Arcane Fulcrum" on GW's home page on the scenery page for warhammer fantasy but... Any troop type can use the model as per the rules, and I'm sure with some creative modelling, Malekith can fit on top of it as well.

Now. When you cast the spell, you place the arcane fulcrum anywhere within 6" of the caster, and then place the caster on top of it. He/she is now, to boil it down: +2 to cast, channels on 4+, is stubborn and ItP, only one model can ever attack him/her in close combat, and the caster gets a 3+ ward save. And the arcane fulcrum cant be destroyed, unless the occupant is either slain or leaves the piece somehow. For example to chase down his broken enemies.

Yeah. A 3+ ward save. You read it correctly. Malekith. The Eternity King. With an honest to Asuryan 3+ ward save.


Soooooo. As a tactic used by any old wizard, its a risky one considering the "max 1d6 power dice per attempt"... But Malekith casts it on a casting roll of 7. So lets look at the rough statistics, split into two cases.

- You roll 1 for max PD: you must roll 7+ on exactly two dice. Which is 58%. With only 2,56% chance to miscast the bugger.

- You roll 2+ for max PD: You essentially toss 2d6 at the spell, still having a 58% chance to cast it, and you then add the third bonus dice should you fail. The chance to NOT reach 7+ on 3d6 is 9%.... Or, you play it safe, and toss 3d6 at it from the get go, though you run a greater risk of IF, but you reduce the risk of failure to 1%.

In other words: this is as failsafe as they come. Chance to roll a 1 on the max PD followed by less-than-7 on the casting roll is about 7%. Chance to roll a 2 on the max PD followed by less-than-7 on the casting roll is 1,5%. So in essence, theres a roughly 90% chance on any given cast attempt that Malekith will succeed in casting the Arcane Fulcrum.


So. The absolutely only way I can see this "not working out" is if GW has taken this into account in the Arcane Fulcrum terrain piece, and made it such that a dragon will not fit, no matter the modifications and creative modelling applied to it.

Discuss! Is this a viable tactical loophole for our glorious end times dominance?

Tomorrow I will modify this OP to include the mathhammer rundown of how Malekith, the Eternity King actually whoops Tyrion, Avatar of Khaine in his sorry little butt in a 1v1 battle! (The Phoenix King version does not, since his sword is flaming, and Tyrion has a stupid 2+ ward against it ;) )




UPDATE:

Malekith, the Phoenix King figthing power.

Request number 1 from Haagrum. Malekith, the Phoenix King versus Tyrion, Avatar of Khaine
Modifier: Malekith has S9 via power of darkness repeated casts, and we assume he has suffered no wounds from it.

The (important) stats for those without the book:

Malekith, the Phoenix King: WS8, S6(9), 9W, 10A, ASF + eternal hatred + MP, his attacks inflict d3 wounds and are flaming, and he can as usual suffer max 1 wound per strike.

Tyrion, Avatar of Khaine: WS10, T4, 5W, 5A+frenzy, ASF + MP, his attacks wound automatically with no armour save allowed and inflicts d6 wounds. He has a 1+ armor save and a 4+ ward (2+ vs flaming). Also the first time he dies, he disregards that entire wounding attack on a 2+.

Both assailants strike simultaneously, and Malekith rerolls to hit.

Round one: FIGHT

Tyrion has 6 attacks hitting on 3+ for 4 hits = 4 wounds. Malekith takes 1 wound from each hit, so he is down to 5 wounds left.
Malekith has 10 attacks hitting at 4+ with rerolls for 7,5 hits. He wounds on 2+ rerolling 1's for 7,3 wounds. Tyrion has a 2+ ward save for 1,21 wounds suffered (so realistically, 1 wound) inflicting d3 wounds for 2 wounds suffered. He has 3 wounds left

Round two: FIGHT

Tyrion wins the first round so is still frenzied. He proceeds like before, taking our beloved Malekith down to 1 wound left.
Malekith also does the same. Tyrion has 1 wound left

Round three: FIGHT

Tyrion kills Malekith.
In a last effort, Malekith lashes out and also kills Tyrion, but the Heart of Avelorn stops the wound on a 2+ roll.

Conclusion: the fight is close as all hell, but in the end, Malekith dies with certainty, whereas 5 out of 6 times, Tyrion walks away from the fight with one wound left. If, however, power of darkness cannot be spammed to S9, the fight is alot more onesided for the usurper Tyrion. Note that I have not taken into account Tyrions mount. It has 2 S4 attacks, so likely wont do much anyway. I also disregarded Seraphons breath attack, since Tyrion has a 2+ 4++ save against it.



Malekith, the Eternity King figthing power.

Now let us pair Malekith up versus Tyrion in his Eternity King guise.

Stats again:

Malekith, the Eternity King: WS8, S6, 10W, 10A, now inflicting d3+1 wounds and is not flaming.

Tyrion, Avatar of Khaine: WS10, T4, 5W, 5A+frenzy, ASF + MP, his attacks wound automatically with no armour save allowed and inflicts d6 wounds. He has a 1+ armor save and a 4+ ward (2+ vs flaming). Also the first time he dies, he disregards that entire wounding attack on a 2+.


Note how I have not cheated with magics this time!

Round one: FIGHT

Tyrion, once again, deals 4 wounds to Malekith. He has 6 wounds left
Malekith, also repeated form before, has 10 attacks hitting at 4+ with rerolls for 7,5 hits. He wounds on 2+ rerolling 1's for 7,3 wounds. S6 gives Tyrion a 4+ armor followed by 4+ ward save for 1,825 wounds with d3+1 wounds each. First, Tyrion suffers the 3 average wounds from the first wound. The next wound would kill him, so the heart of Avelorn eats it and he has 2 wounds left

Round two: FIGHT

In a repetition of before, Tyrion deals 4 wounds to Malekith. He has 2 wounds left
Malekith now kills Tyrion with a repetition of the above performance.

So, d3+1 wounds and not-flaming makes it a lot harder for the avatar of khaine. Malekith is still under pressure, and it does not take much more than a measly 2 to hit rolls to land on a 3 instead of a 2 before he dies as well. But there is no longer a scenario where Tyrion survives with any likeliness.


Lets take other superheroes.

Malekith versus Karl Franz Ascended.

Malekith strikes first, bwahaha. 10 attacks hitting at 3+ (KFA has WS7, mwahaha) with rerolls for a massive 8,88 hits. He wounds on 3+ (KFA is T5) rerolling 1's for ~7 wounds. KFA has a 6+ armor and 4+ ward save, resulting in 2,9 wounds going through. Each inflicting 3 on average, so KFA has 1 wounds left if he is lucky after the first combat round! If you want to really go for it, firing off Seraphons breath weapon might be lucky to inflict 1 more wound. You dont need more than a little luck to flatten out the dude instantly

But, if KFA gets to strike back, he has 10A hitting on 4+ for 5 hits, giving 5 wounds to Malekith. In the next combat round, Malekith wipes the floor with KFA for sure.



What of the Glottkin?

Malekith still goes first. The Glottkin has a WS of 6 so Malekith again hits on 3+ for a total of 8,88 hits. Versus T6 he will then give just above 5 wounds. Glottkin has only regen to answer with, suffering 2,5 unsaved wounds times 3 = 7,5 wounds. The massive guy has 12 of them to go around, so he has 4,5 wounds (lets make it 5) left.

Then he retaliates with 5+d6 attacks, of which a single one is resolved at S10.
But the Glottkin does not have demonic nor magical attacks. So Malekith retains a 2+ ward save against it. Suck it, Glottkin! Malekith will at most suffer a single wound from this dude, before brutally murdering him in the following round.

Hilariousness: phoenix king malekith probably wipes Glottkin in a single combat round due to his flaming sword ;)



Surely, Nagash has a chance?

As usual, Malekith goes first.

Nagash has a WS of 7 so Malekith again hits on 3+ for a total of 8,88 hits. Versus T7 he will then give 3,5 wounds. Nagash saves half, and eats a total of ~5 wounds on average. The guy has 2 wounds left.

Nagash has 6 attacks back which, considering he is S8, probably inflicts 3 wounds on Malekith.

In the following round, Malekith kills the guy.



Now, keep in mind this is all considering just average statistical chance. When you inflict 3,5 wounds on someone as in the nagash example, theres any chance your dice falls on just 3 wounds, and your opponent might save 2 of them, messing up the calculation.
Furthermore, magical hexes and augments can swing any fight hugely to one side.

But, the average statistical performance still speaks hugely in one favour: Malekith, the Eternity King kills ANYTHING AND ANYONE in a non-assisted 1on1 fight. Nothing can stand before shadow incarnate!
Last edited by Thraundil on Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Diobarach »

Groovy, I think these are the GW approved fulcrums:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Dre ... ity-Stair#

You could still try to dispel it to stop it from happening in the first place I guess. With all this monster-combining profile stuff, getting jealous of empire players with their Van Horstmann's speculums, lucky ducks.

EDIT: Summon Fulcrum is a LOL times spell, so I guess you can't dispel it...
Last edited by Diobarach on Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Haagrum »

I'd had the same idea as soon as I read the rules for Conjure Arcane Fulcrum, since Malekith is utterly brutal in Storm of Magic games.

I think it actually works better for Malekith's other two Dragon-riding incarnations than for the Eternity King, since Shadow has fewer ranged offensive spells than Dark Magic (or Fire, in the case of Phoenix King Malekith) and the 3+ ward helps substantially with abusing Power of Darkness. Phoenix King Malekith also works very well against enemies who are using Arcane Fulcrums - since they're buildings, he gets to reroll to wound (because Asuryath has Flaming Attacks). Both other versions also have access to the Oblivion spell, which casts on 25+ and is therefore unreliable, but is utterly devastating when successful.

Since the Arcane Fulcrum is treated as a building, there's additional protection against ranged attacks, and there's no risk of pursuing to leave the Fulcrum if Malekith is on top of it.

@Thraundil - Unfortunately, Arcane Fulcrums do not provide +2 to cast; the Magical Lodestone rule only gives +2 to channelling (which is still not too shabby). However, if you have time, I'd like to see some math-hammering for Phoenix King Malekith against AvaTyrion, taking account of POD abuse to push him to Strength 9 (allowing him to completely bypass AvaTyrion's armour save).
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Rork »

But doesn't this pin your 1000pt death machine down to a single point?

Yes, he's not going to die, but neither are you going to make the most out of the investment (which could be put towards a Dragon Lord and Supreme Sorceress, spreading the risk).
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Haagrum »

Rork wrote:But doesn't this pin your 1000pt death machine down to a single point?

Yes, he's not going to die, but neither are you going to make the most out of the investment (which could be put towards a Dragon Lord and Supreme Sorceress, spreading the risk).


Agreed, Rork - but this is an exercise in math-hammer, not tactics. :)

Tactically, it might be done to protect a lead by preserving Malekith towards the end of a game, particularly if you're playing Blood & Glory and your opponent has somehow managed to get Malekith down to only a few wounds, or to create a roadblock to disrupt an opponent's movements (since they can't kill Malekith on the fulcrum and have to go around him instead).
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by zubus »

A Lvl 3/4 mage with lore of metal and a sacrificial dagger would also be useful either by casting the fulcrum spell for Malekith to use on later turns, or casting the 2+ ward End times lore of metal spell.

At 15+ and a +4, using the dagger to add another dice if you only roll 1 or 2 dice (we play it that the dagger can add more than the 6-dice limit around here. If you play it differently, then it wont help against a low d6 roll, but will save you power dice in the long run). Both being undispellable (not sure that's a real word..)

Metal also comes with a nice variety of buffs, hexes, and one of the best spells to kill an enemy Malekith should you be facing him. Searing doom/golden hounds i think are the most efficient MM for taking him down

Also, something to remember when on a fulcrum. It counts as a building, meaning warmachines and anything with a template now do d6 hits, instead of just 1..
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Haagrum »

zubus wrote:A Lvl 3/4 mage with lore of metal and a sacrificial dagger would also be useful either by casting the fulcrum spell for Malekith to use on later turns, or casting the 2+ ward End times lore of metal spell.


Unfortunately, the caster goes straight onto the newly-summoned Fulcrum, and if they leave it, the Fulcrum is destroyed.
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by zubus »

Haagrum wrote:
zubus wrote:A Lvl 3/4 mage with lore of metal and a sacrificial dagger would also be useful either by casting the fulcrum spell for Malekith to use on later turns, or casting the 2+ ward End times lore of metal spell.


Unfortunately, the caster goes straight onto the newly-summoned Fulcrum, and if they leave it, the Fulcrum is destroyed.


Aww, drat. :( At least the bit about the 2+ ward end times spell still stands..
/me is thinking a lvl4 asrai metal (or any lore with decent range really) wizard summoning a fulcrum in a forest is sounding like a good idea.. :twisted:
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Thraundil »

Alright, just gonna answer to everything in one go =] thanks for the fast comments already :D

r530 wrote:Groovy, I think these are the GW approved fulcrums:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Dre ... ity-Stair#

You could still try to dispel it to stop it from happening in the first place I guess. With all this monster-combining profile stuff, getting jealous of empire players with their Van Horstmann's speculums, lucky ducks.

EDIT: Summon Fulcrum is a LOL times spell, so I guess you can't dispel it...


Indeed, those are the ones! "This multi-part plastic kit contains one Magewrath Throne and one Balewind Vortex - two finely detailed Arcane Fulcrums that comes in 18 components. " So both models count as arcane fulcrums. And Malekith can easily fit on top of the rightmost one!


Haagrum wrote:I'd had the same idea as soon as I read the rules for Conjure Arcane Fulcrum, since Malekith is utterly brutal in Storm of Magic games.

I think it actually works better for Malekith's other two Dragon-riding incarnations than for the Eternity King, since Shadow has fewer ranged offensive spells than Dark Magic (or Fire, in the case of Phoenix King Malekith) and the 3+ ward helps substantially with abusing Power of Darkness. Phoenix King Malekith also works very well against enemies who are using Arcane Fulcrums - since they're buildings, he gets to reroll to wound (because Asuryath has Flaming Attacks). Both other versions also have access to the Oblivion spell, which casts on 25+ and is therefore unreliable, but is utterly devastating when successful.

Since the Arcane Fulcrum is treated as a building, there's additional protection against ranged attacks, and there's no risk of pursuing to leave the Fulcrum if Malekith is on top of it.

@Thraundil - Unfortunately, Arcane Fulcrums do not provide +2 to cast; the Magical Lodestone rule only gives +2 to channelling (which is still not too shabby). However, if you have time, I'd like to see some math-hammering for Phoenix King Malekith against AvaTyrion, taking account of POD abuse to push him to Strength 9 (allowing him to completely bypass AvaTyrion's armour save).


It definitely works very well with the PK Malekith as well. The fulcrum is basically a requirement to ever cast power of darkness for me! Losing a wound off him on a 33% chance is just too risky.
That being said though... I think EK Malekith would also brutalise occupants of a fulcrum, since he is just a monster in combat.

One point though. Oblivion is a huge no no! After the cast, on a 4+ the fulcrum and any wizard upon it blows to smithereens, and are removed from play. I'd maybe attempt the cast with a girl on foot, but no chance for Malekith, in either version, to risk this :P

And fair enough with the +2 to cast. I had read it wrongly.



Rork wrote:But doesn't this pin your 1000pt death machine down to a single point?

Yes, he's not going to die, but neither are you going to make the most out of the investment (which could be put towards a Dragon Lord and Supreme Sorceress, spreading the risk).



"If a wizard occupying an arcane fulcrum "exits the building", then the arcane fulcrum model is removed from play".

So yes, of course, he cant really move, nor can he charge anything - so of course you need to weigh the cost benefit situation. The spell is mostly applicable in games where your opponent has for example a light council or similar strong, long ranged magic missiles that can otherwise really hurt Malekith (A typical S7 banishment inflicts 7 hits = 4,66 wounds on our beloved king, and can be spammed).

Buuuuuuut Eternity King Malekith has something nifty up his sleeve. He can choose to, instead of making a normal move, make a 20" ethereal move. And lets review the ethereal rules: They are never slowed by any special rule, spell or item that would otherwise reduce their movement or stop them from moving completely. So he CAN move his 'normal' 20" marchmove regardless of being in the fulcrum or not. The fulcrum is just destroyed when he leaves it. But then, he can always recast it, until he is either in a favourable position to make the do-or-die charge against the enemy casters (from behind, possibly) or he can just sit there for the whole game and spam his magic whilst hopefully not dying.



But yeah. The Fulcrum is pretty brutal. I'd probably still rather have my wizards in units, though, since a lone model with 3+ ward is still somewhat weaker and a shooting / magic missile magnet than a model inside a unit...





OP is edited to include some fun mathhammer scenarios of Malekith vs all-the-other-big-guys.
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Marchosias »

Thraundil wrote: Malekith, the Eternity King kills ANYTHING AND ANYONE in a non-assisted 1on1 fight.

In a non-assisted fight, probably yes. However, consider the following Bretonnian tag-team:
- Bretonnian lord, virtue of heroism, Sirienne's locket: this guy can only suffer a single wound during any phase (though he can still be brought down instantly by killing blow or purple sun) and has the heroic killing blow
- prophetess of the lady, lvl4 life

The lord charges Malekith and challenges. He will suffer a wound but not more. He will suffer a second wound in the DE turn. Then, the sorc has to force through two life spells to heal him which should be possible given that you can spam the spells over and over again. Repeat until the lord scores an unsaved HKB. :D

The bad thing is that this tag-team consumes power dice to work. On the other hand, the resulting spells can help the Bretonnian army elsewhere, too. The good thing is that the two heroes combined cost some 600 points.

And I am sure there are many more such combinations. :) Still, nice to be on top until the next ET book.
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Dark knight »

Marchosias wrote:
Thraundil wrote: Malekith, the Eternity King kills ANYTHING AND ANYONE in a non-assisted 1on1 fight.

In a non-assisted fight, probably yes. However, consider the following Bretonnian tag-team:
- Bretonnian lord, virtue of heroism, Sirienne's locket: this guy can only suffer a single wound during any phase (though he can still be brought down instantly by killing blow or purple sun) and has the heroic killing blow
- prophetess of the lady, lvl4 life

The lord charges Malekith and challenges. He will suffer a wound but not more. He will suffer a second wound in the DE turn. Then, the sorc has to force through two life spells to heal him which should be possible given that you can spam the spells over and over again. Repeat until the lord scores an unsaved HKB. :D

Malekith is immune to the HKB. I kinda doubt the lord can get Malekith down during the game. Especially since Malekith can just cast the Shadow End Times spell and fly away.

Maybe have him sit on a Fulcrum in front of the opponents main combat unit, nerf enemy units with his shadow magic and send Witch darts to assassinate enemy wizards with his 20" ethereal movement / the shadow end times spell whenever he doesn't need those himself. Once there's no one with a lore that's actually dangerous for him, he can just start deleting units in combat. Warlocks with their death magic can also help the witches in this mission ;)
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Haagrum »

One point about the math-hammer above - Malekith hits the Glottkin on 4+, since they have the Mark of Nurgle. He'll still roflstomp them in short order thanks to Multiple Wounds and their lack of, and in very short order as his Phoenix King incarnation.

Thraundil wrote:Oblivion is a huge no no! After the cast, on a 4+ the fulcrum and any wizard upon it blows to smithereens, and are removed from play. I'd maybe attempt the cast with a girl on foot, but no chance for Malekith, in either version, to risk this :P


Oh, I wasn't suggesting that Malekith use it on his own Fulcrum - that'd be suicidal. The new version of this spell has an infinite range, and kills the occupant of the Fulcrum on 4+. It's hard to cast, thanks to the D6 power dice limit, but it is particularly brutal against the tooled-up super-wizards which we'll see in the End Times.

Imagine Nagash or one of his Abyssal-riding Mortarchs on a Fulcrum, for the improved ward save and immunity to Multiple Wounds. Imagine the Glottkin on a Fulcrum, for similar reasons.

Now imagine forcing through an undispellable "your huge model dies on 4+ and everything within 6 inches of them takes a Strength 10 hit" spell against them. Even if Malekith is in close combat with them, that's a chance I'd take.
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Calisson »

Thraundil wrote:Now let us pair Malekith up versus Tyrion in his Eternity King guise.
Cannot happen: Tyrion needs to be dead for Malekith to become Eternity King.
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Thraundil »

Oh, Haagrum! You truly are the master of dark arts that your title suggests :P I hadnt even noticed that you didnt need to actually stand on the fulcrum in order to cast the spell! For larger end times games, a lvl 4 dark with power scroll will be super :p

Calisson wrote:
Thraundil wrote:Now let us pair Malekith up versus Tyrion in his Eternity King guise.
Cannot happen: Tyrion needs to be dead for Malekith to become Eternity King.


BOOOORING! The point of the story is: Malekith becomes so much more than Tyrion ever was. Oh and also, the secondary point: stupid 2+ vs flaming.
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Jolemai »

Didn't I hear that spells can now be cast more than once? If correct, than Malrkith can hop around the field from Fulcrum to Fulcrum?
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Re: Making Malekith Immortal Using End Times Spells

Post by Dalamar »

End Times spells can only be xast once per phase though.
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