Sorry just gotta vent

[Anewbre]

I played a game in our slow grow league last night. We are at 750 points. I fielded 2x (5) dark riders, 1 x (5) Doomfire warlocks, 1 x 10 Cold one knights - Shiny Banner (?) - reroll failed leadership once, Master on Cold One, SDC, Lance. He had a Volleygun with an Engineer, big block of swordsmen and a detachment of halberdiers, level 3 Wizard, hero, and a BSB.

Volleygun killed a unit of Dark Riders, the other unit killed the crew and Doomfire warlocks killed the engineer. After a few turn of whittling down his swordsmen I charged the unit with the Cold ones (down to 6) and the Warlocks in the rear - because I wanted this to be a game and not just me winning a game against a kid. He cast a spell "...thorns" which destroyed 3 Cold Ones, 4 Dark Riders, 3 Doomfire Warlocks. I was left with my Master who made leadership tests for 4 turns until an 11, then he was run down.

Truly my loss was due to my mistakes and my choices and I don't regret those but I am angry about the errata which allows 50% leaders and 50% heroes in a list.

So is Warhammer now "Herohammer"? If so do our "heros" have a chance vs. the "heros" of other armies?

[Phierlihy]

The quick answer is no - this is not hero-hammer. Heroes have too many weaknesses for that to be the case. And in your case it sounds like your opponent was smart and lucky. It isn't impossible to create a battle plan in which units are little more than character delivery systems and they win the battle for you any more than your battle plan can be to magic your opponent to death or shoot him to death. I've seen people win with a single character and lots of units as well as lots of characters with few units. I still prefer a balanced approach and like to think of characters as more of a force multiplier but that's purely preference on my part. No approach to the game is wrong so long as you're not breaking the rules.

[direweasel]

So is Warhammer now "Herohammer"?

The short answer (as it often is in complicated questions like this) is "it depends". It depends on a lot of things. Obviously the fact that the restrictions have been loosened mean that the possibility is certainly there to make lists composed of 25% core troops, and the rest characters.

The real question you're asking is "are people going to go character heavy in their army builds now?", and that's where "it depends." It depends on the meta where you play, it depends on what particular army list you're using and up against, it depends on what options your opponent has in terms of minis to field, and a TON of other factors.

I think there are still plenty of armies where a horde of troops will trump a few uber characters (Skaven and Orcs/Goblins spring to mind immediately). I think there are other armies where the uber characters will be among the better builds (Chaos Demons, Warriors are examples). I think the elves are somewhere in between. We have excellent troop types at all levels of the build, but we have pretty potent characters too. I can see somebody bringing Malekith on a dragon (800+ points) in a 2000 point battle and having a pretty nasty list. I can also see somebody just bringing a few characters and going heavy on rank+file and having a powerful list as well.

If so do our "heros" have a chance vs. the "heros" of other armies?

Yes and no. We have very VERY good characters. They all strike first, can get weapons with high strength, murderous prowess, and even without magic can get pretty good armor saves (thank you sea dragon cloak!). We can make very mobile killing platforms by putting heroes and dreadlords on pegasi, that can dish out a TON of damage and really turn a battle around.

On the other hand, we're all still only T3, and a pegasus will get you up to T4, and there are ways around armor. That's a lot of points for somebody that can die somewhat easily. We aren't dwarf lords. You don't want to stand toe-to-toe with a tougher character for multiple rounds in a big slugfest. You have to be careful and selective, and thankfully our improved mobility should ensure that you can do that, if you know what you're doing.

[Red...]

To provide a third perspective:

Brief answer is "yes." Increasingly high toughness of characters and gazillions of wounds, along with impenetrable ward saves, the availability of stubborn through the crown of command, and the ease with which combat characters can avoid getting forced to take break tests anyway (massive numbers of kills with no wounds suffered in return = tons of active combat resolution = more than cancels out any static combat resolution bonuses for the opposition) are all key elements of the change. Yes, deep columns may be able to suffer that damage for a turn or two, but uber characters are typically very maneuverable (either mounted or flying or both) so can pick and choose their contests, even deep columns eventually die when slashed at by uber characters enough, magical uber characters can often do huge amounts of damage through their spells, and monster riding uber characters get thunderstomp and sometimes a breath attack to help out there too. And of course, living characters yield no victory points, so even if your opponent isn't able to do more than wipe out a few of your minor chaff units, if you can't kill his uber characters (and typically, you often can't - as they're either flying around out of charge range and protected from stray missiles, or are high toughness/high wounds/nasty armour save/horrible ward save unkillable fiends) then he loses no points, so you lose anyway.

All very silly. But then GW seems increasingly to believe that kiddies like big scary things to fight one another, and that's about it. Maybe they are right - one of my friends used to work at a school where one kid pestered him incessantly with the question: "Who do you think would win in a fight, Malekith or Superman?" That's the market GW seems to be trying to cater to. But it makes for a rotten game for us non-kiddies.

Ultimately, you can be saved from the madness by finding opponents who adhere to similar "balanced" play philosophies that used to be the key to winning and are far more fun to play with. Otherwise, if you are serious about winning some games, you had best get down to the shop and order your $150 big uberlord on a monster character (whichever has been released most recently is your best bet, as it's nearly always the most powerful).

[Killerk]

The quick answer is no - this is not hero-hammer.

Guess you haven't seen my WoC list .

Any army that is made up of 75% hero/lord choices is hero hammer.

[Anewbre]

Thanks for your replies. I will probably to continue playing the army I want and enjoy my games and hopefully make them enjoyable for my opponents as well. I like the more balanced approach - as long as it has lots of cavalry models.